Bucks Offseason Thread - Trade, news, re-tool discussion

[Plossum]

Tatum has 34/13/8 and yet was somehow pretty invisible that game. Or am I too harsh?

[blazza18]

That's not much of a plan though. The pieces coming back matter a lot given we're in a contending window. I'm all for getting a bit younger and more atheltic, but we've gotta stop pretending we can get better by moving on from Midds and Jrue.

We just got knocked out of the first round after being knocked out of the second round. Gotta stop thinking we can't improve on that.

And we've had bad luck with injuries in both those years. Gotta stop thinking we can't get back to a Championship level team by holding onto a proven Championship core in Jrue, Midds and Giannis. I'm not saying that's the only reason we lost to the Heat but it sure doesn't help when you're MVP breaks his back in game 1.

May I ask what a proven championship core brought at any time over the last two seasons? How does the team get better in your eyes if it stands pat and just continues to get older? Why can't we get good luck with a younger core around Giannis?

[paulpressey25]

Tatum has 34/13/8 and yet was somehow pretty invisible that game. Or am I too harsh?

Might be the wrong thread, but I’ll reply. Giannis had 38/20 in game 5. Sometimes it isn’t about the raw stats but when and how you get them.

[Plossum]

We just got knocked out of the first round after being knocked out of the second round. Gotta stop thinking we can't improve on that.

And we've had bad luck with injuries in both those years. Gotta stop thinking we can't get back to a Championship level team by holding onto a proven Championship core in Jrue, Midds and Giannis. I'm not saying that's the only reason we lost to the Heat but it sure doesn't help when you're MVP breaks his back in game 1.

May I ask what a proven championship core brought at any time over the last two seasons? How does the team get better in your eyes if it stands pat and just continues to get older? Why can't we get good luck with a younger core around Giannis?

I mean we just won 58 games and the first seed this year. We lost to a Boston team in 7 that nearly won the title last year (without Midds). This team still has plenty of juice in it. We’ve just caught crucial injuries at the wrong time of the year.

Let me throw one back at you: when has a contender ever broken up its title winning core the way you’re proposing and got back to the pinnacle?

Some of you treat this like it’s a game of 2K and you can just bring in another highly rated player and everything will be OK.

I mean, look at the warriors post 2019. They kept getting it together, tweaked around the edges and it paid dividends. Look at the Spurs in 2011. There are plenty of examples of why keeping a core together works out for the best.

[Plossum]

Tatum has 34/13/8 and yet was somehow pretty invisible that game. Or am I too harsh?

Might be the wrong thread, but I’ll reply. Giannis had 38/20 in game 5. Sometimes it isn’t about the raw stats but when and how you get them.

My bad PP, wrong thread.

[blazza18]

And we've had bad luck with injuries in both those years. Gotta stop thinking we can't get back to a Championship level team by holding onto a proven Championship core in Jrue, Midds and Giannis. I'm not saying that's the only reason we lost to the Heat but it sure doesn't help when you're MVP breaks his back in game 1.

May I ask what a proven championship core brought at any time over the last two seasons? How does the team get better in your eyes if it stands pat and just continues to get older? Why can't we get good luck with a younger core around Giannis?

I mean we just won 58 games and the first seed this year. We lost to a Boston team in 7 that nearly won the title last year (without Midds). This team still has plenty of juice in it. We’ve just caught crucial injuries at the wrong time of the year.

Let me throw one back at you: when has a contender ever broken up its title winning core the way you’re proposing and got back to the pinnacle?

Some of you treat this like it’s a game of 2K and you can just bring in another highly rated player and everything will be OK.

I mean, look at the warriors post 2019. They kept getting it together, tweaked around the edges and it paid dividends. Look at the Spurs in 2011. There are plenty of examples of why keeping a core together works out for the best.

Credit to the team for figuring out a way to get the one seed but nothing about them told us it was a one seed. Their résumé was pretty weak. You think if we get by Boston last season we get by Miami?

The 2k comment is pretty random?

The rest of it I'll answer this way. It's clear to me at least you think the team is closer to the Warriors dynasty than I do so our expectations are different. We're not breaking up a core that won 3 titles or one with multiple hall of famers. We're moving on (over two offseasons I might add) who struggled to get out of their own way for 4 out of 5 seasons. I'll also add the Warriors had assets we don't. We have no way of actually getting better unless we move on from a core guy.

[Plossum]

May I ask what a proven championship core brought at any time over the last two seasons? How does the team get better in your eyes if it stands pat and just continues to get older? Why can't we get good luck with a younger core around Giannis?

I mean we just won 58 games and the first seed this year. We lost to a Boston team in 7 that nearly won the title last year (without Midds). This team still has plenty of juice in it. We’ve just caught crucial injuries at the wrong time of the year.

Let me throw one back at you: when has a contender ever broken up its title winning core the way you’re proposing and got back to the pinnacle?

Some of you treat this like it’s a game of 2K and you can just bring in another highly rated player and everything will be OK.

I mean, look at the warriors post 2019. They kept getting it together, tweaked around the edges and it paid dividends. Look at the Spurs in 2011. There are plenty of examples of why keeping a core together works out for the best.

Credit to the team for figuring out a way to get the one seed but nothing about them told us it was a one seed. Their résumé was pretty weak. You think if we get by Boston last season we get by Miami?

The 2k comment is pretty random?

The rest of it I'll answer this way. It's clear to me at least you think the team is closer to the Warriors dynasty than I do so our expectations are different. We're not breaking up a core that won 3 titles or one with multiple hall of famers. We're moving on (over two offseasons I might add) who struggled to get out of their own way for 4 out of 5 seasons. I'll also add the Warriors had assets we don't. We have no way of actually getting better unless we move on from a core guy.

I mean, didn't we sweep them just the year before? Why on Earth couldn't we get past them?

"Credit to the team for figuring out a way to get the one seed but nothing about them told us it was a one seed. Their résumé was pretty weak." -- this is glib and doesn't mean anything. You didn't like the way they won the one seed or something?

And don't put words in my mouth. I never compared this team to the Warriors dynasty. There is not comparison to that dynasty. The point you're continually ignoring is that teams shouldn't give up on championship level cores so hastily. The Warriors of 2022 and Spurs of 2013/14 are example as to why. Manu, Timmy and TP were 36, 37 and 31 in 2014 when they won. And they came 3 years after they lost 2-4 as the 1 seed to the 8 seeded Grizz.

Curry, Dray and Klay were 33, 31 and 32 last year as a core.

Giannis, Jrue and Midds are 28, 32 and 31. You're acting like they're some has-beens near 40. They're in their peaks and unless there's a clear upgrade it'd be madness to move on.

[Plossum]

Midds just put up 24/6/6 against the Heat and was by far and away our biggest net positive when on the floor. I'm not sure why ppl keep saying he's done. Seems because Jimmy went past him a couple of times, he's all of a sudden past it? Jimmy has been going past a lot of guys this off season.

Midd's numbers are still really really good.

[emunney]

And we've had bad luck with injuries in both those years. Gotta stop thinking we can't get back to a Championship level team by holding onto a proven Championship core in Jrue, Midds and Giannis. I'm not saying that's the only reason we lost to the Heat but it sure doesn't help when you're MVP breaks his back in game 1.

May I ask what a proven championship core brought at any time over the last two seasons? How does the team get better in your eyes if it stands pat and just continues to get older? Why can't we get good luck with a younger core around Giannis?

I mean we just won 58 games and the first seed this year. We lost to a Boston team in 7 that nearly won the title last year (without Midds). This team still has plenty of juice in it. We’ve just caught crucial injuries at the wrong time of the year.

Let me throw one back at you: when has a contender ever broken up its title winning core the way you’re proposing and got back to the pinnacle?

Some of you treat this like it’s a game of 2K and you can just bring in another highly rated player and everything will be OK.

I mean, look at the warriors post 2019. They kept getting it together, tweaked around the edges and it paid dividends. Look at the Spurs in 2011. There are plenty of examples of why keeping a core together works out for the best.

The Bulls turned over basically the entire non-Jordan-and-Pippen roster between 3 peats. Lakers moved pretty much everybody but Kobe.

The Spurs in 2011 didn't still have David Robinson and Sean Elliott.

[blazza18]

The point you're continually ignoring is that teams shouldn't give up on championship level cores so hastily. The Warriors of 2022 and Spurs of 2013/14 are example as to why. Manu, Timmy and TP were 36, 37 and 31 in 2014 when they won. And they came 3 years after they lost 2-4 as the 1 seed to the 8 seeded Grizz.

Curry, Dray and Klay were 33, 31 and 32 last year as a core.

Giannis, Jrue and Midds are 28, 32 and 31. You're acting like they're some has-beens near 40. They're in their peaks and unless there's a clear upgrade it'd be madness to move on.

These teams had years of deep playoff runs and won more than once like c'mon there is no comparison to us at all. If we can magically draft our Kawhi or trade a player you're personally fine with for a lottery pick to extend the run I'm all for hearing how we do that.

In reality we've got Jrue who has completely sucked offensively for all three playoff series with us and Middleton who is a walking injury at this point. Wanting to part ways with both over the next two seasons has as good or better chance at keeping us in the title hunt than keeping both and hoping for luck.

[Plossum]

I mean, Klay snapped his ACL and Achilles, Steph broke his hand but they got lucky last year I guess ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Again, I'm not comparing us to that teams. We're not the Spurs, we're not the Warriors. I'm simply saying there's ample evidence out there that you don't break up championship level cores when the players are in their primes.

[Plossum]

May I ask what a proven championship core brought at any time over the last two seasons? How does the team get better in your eyes if it stands pat and just continues to get older? Why can't we get good luck with a younger core around Giannis?

I mean we just won 58 games and the first seed this year. We lost to a Boston team in 7 that nearly won the title last year (without Midds). This team still has plenty of juice in it. We’ve just caught crucial injuries at the wrong time of the year.

Let me throw one back at you: when has a contender ever broken up its title winning core the way you’re proposing and got back to the pinnacle?

Some of you treat this like it’s a game of 2K and you can just bring in another highly rated player and everything will be OK.

I mean, look at the warriors post 2019. They kept getting it together, tweaked around the edges and it paid dividends. Look at the Spurs in 2011. There are plenty of examples of why keeping a core together works out for the best.

The Bulls turned over basically the entire non-Jordan-and-Pippen roster between 3 peats. Lakers moved pretty much everybody but Kobe.

The Spurs in 2011 didn't still have David Robinson and Sean Elliott.

This is the point I'm making though. Keep Midds, Jrue and Giannis together; tweak the players around them to get younger and more athletic. Imagine that Bulls team trading away Pippen after losing in 1995 to the Magic. It'd be madness.

Again, someone name me a championship contender that traded away key piece of its core and came out the other end a better team.

Edit: the naughties Lakers are a good example of why you don't do it. I mean they of course had to trade Shaq but still they gave him up for a young guy like Odom and it turned out to be a disaster. Gasol fell into their lap later which is what turned that team into a contender. If there's a Gasol type talent out there we can grab for Midds, I'm all for it. But I'd rather gamble on current Midds than a young guy with potential or a high draft pick.

[German Athens]

The HOF thing is sorta funny to me. If we keep the team together, and win the title next year - which is a possibility - Jrue and Khris would then be two time champs and the odds one of them gets into the hall goes up significantly.

[ReasonablySober]

I mean, Klay snapped his ACL and Achilles, Steph broke his hand but they got lucky last year I guess ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Again, I'm not comparing us to that teams. We're not the Spurs, we're not the Warriors. I'm simply saying there's ample evidence out there that you don't break up championship level cores when the players are in their primes.

The league is making it more difficult every year to maintain championship level teams in a way that wasn't in the past.

[blazza18]

The championship core thing would matter more for me if they could make it past the second round a few more times. The title will rightfully force us to ignore the coming up short a couple of times but like it didn't change how much the team constantly shoots itself in the foot. The players themselves have made it easier to move on from it.

[Plossum]

I mean, Klay snapped his ACL and Achilles, Steph broke his hand but they got lucky last year I guess ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Again, I'm not comparing us to that teams. We're not the Spurs, we're not the Warriors. I'm simply saying there's ample evidence out there that you don't break up championship level cores when the players are in their primes.

The league is making it more difficult every year to maintain championship level teams in a way that wasn't in the past.

Very much agree - an excellent point. If we extended Midds this offseason, we'd be looking at a ~$130m in salary tied up in just those three. I'd still do it for those three, but we need to be careful going forward with types of money we give to players like Grayson, Pat, Bobby, Joe, Brook etc.

Rookie contracts and finding the diamonds in the rough like Martin, Strus, Vincent etc is going to be super important. NBA moneyball is gonna be a big thing in the new CBA.

As much as I hate it, I'd look to sign and trade Brook, and cut salary by moving Bobby and Grayson to keep our cap in shape. Invest in Marjon and AJ and see if we can find our own version of Martin, Strus, Vincent etc. This gives us the highest odds of getting another title IMO.

[pifhluk23]

Holiday has to go, hes checked out and doesn't care about winning another title imo. At this point his offense in the playoffs is so bad that he should really only be a 6th-7th man situational player getting 20-30 mins a game and only closing if he's playing well.

This is another reason Bud had to go too, 0 creativity. He's never in his life changed the minutes sliders in 2K just let's the cpu handle it.

[Couch Potato]

I mean we just won 58 games and the first seed this year. We lost to a Boston team in 7 that nearly won the title last year (without Midds). This team still has plenty of juice in it. We’ve just caught crucial injuries at the wrong time of the year.

Let me throw one back at you: when has a contender ever broken up its title winning core the way you’re proposing and got back to the pinnacle?

Some of you treat this like it’s a game of 2K and you can just bring in another highly rated player and everything will be OK.

I mean, look at the warriors post 2019. They kept getting it together, tweaked around the edges and it paid dividends. Look at the Spurs in 2011. There are plenty of examples of why keeping a core together works out for the best.

The Bulls turned over basically the entire non-Jordan-and-Pippen roster between 3 peats. Lakers moved pretty much everybody but Kobe.

The Spurs in 2011 didn't still have David Robinson and Sean Elliott.

This is the point I'm making though. Keep Midds, Jrue and Giannis together; tweak the players around them to get younger and more athletic. Imagine that Bulls team trading away Pippen after losing in 1995 to the Magic. It'd be madness.

Again, someone name me a championship contender that traded away key piece of its core and came out the other end a better team.

Edit: the naughties Lakers are a good example of why you don't do it. I mean they of course had to trade Shaq but still they gave him up for a young guy like Odom and it turned out to be a disaster. Gasol fell into their lap later which is what turned that team into a contender. If there's a Gasol type talent out there we can grab for Midds, I'm all for it. But I'd rather gamble on current Midds than a young guy with potential or a high draft pick.

Even just trimming around the edges in a retool and keeping the big4. We don't have much ammo for a upgrade. Just rearranging the furniture. Bobby,Allen,Patc wont fetch much, Youngest player we got is Beauchamp. Ingles,Leonard,Thanasis,Crowder,Lopez,Dragic,Green,Wes are all free agents and a player option for Middleton and Carter. Only have pick #58 in this draft. Cant trade to far out being in the second tax apron. Also Middleton has that player option. Someone said a 5 year max is like what $260M or something crazy for Middleton. Lopez was great but hate to extend him any longer then two years.

But like you guys mentioned the Bulls had different rosters. Oakley to Grant to Rodman at PF. PG was a revolving door of Paxton,Kerr,BJ Armstrong. Center was like Will Perdue and Bill Cartwright and Luc Longley. Back then the cap rules forced teams to get under the tax. Yeah Warriors changed the rules a bit and rest started to do the same as in spend more. But now new CBA. I think that forces us to breaking up our core 4.

[jakecronus8]

If the Bucks make the commitment to get younger and athletic, what are the two best Khris and Jrue trades (or possibly just one big one) you can come up with? Go!

[Couch Potato]

If the Bucks make the commitment to get younger and athletic, what are the two best Khris and Jrue trades (or possibly just one big one) you can come up with? Go!

Wire tap mentioned Blazers want a wing and willing to part with Simons and #3. I'd do that for Middleton thats if he opts in or agrees to a sign and trade. Still gives us options to trade Holiday,Allen,Pat,Bobby yet.