Woj: "This locker room never got over Ime Udoka's dismissal as head coach"

[hugepatsfan]

If the players are still mad about this Brad needs to look them in the eye and tell them to shut the **** up and that this isn't a locker room situation. This a workplace situation. It involves power dynamics and the potential of abuse for that. It involves workplace culture not in a locker room but in an office setting. It involves perception of favoritism in opportunities for development offered to for someone's career. It involves favoritism in compensation based. In other words, it involves a whole host of issues that none of them have a **** clue since their line of work out of college has never put them in those situations.

He should tell them how dumb and ignorant it is for them to think who they liked as a basketball coach as jack **** to do with how an organization is going to handle workplace relationship rules and issues.

[darrendaye]

Sorry, can't agree with this. The Celtics were a wrecking machine to start the year, just a few days after the Udoka suspension. Yes, I'm sure the players weren't happy (probably weren't happy to be left in the dark either), but this debacle can't be attributed to that.

And they fell off right after Joe was named head couch around the all star break, and then got worse in the playoffs after IME got a new job. I think they still were holding out hope he was coming back.

But that's almost like saying once the found out IME wasn't coming back they chose to take their feet off the gas pedal. Either way it points back to the players imo.

Very true. I do put fault on the media for not continuing to put pressure on team ownership to provide more detail on the situation. That there never was legal action pursued by the other party(ies) puts the team in a compromised position in the perception of how they chose to handle it. But the team losing their poise and effort wasn't an occurrence isolated to 2022-23.

As others have pointed out, off-ball movement was probably more frequent THIS year than years past. I didn't agree with some of Joe's decisions. I'm not as nutty about use of timeouts. Sure, should he have more quickly put the bibs on the babies or realized they aren't ready to feed themselves? In hindsight, yes. He should have killed that experiment sooner. But that shouldn't cloud the bigger issue that the top 2 players don't seem likely to achieve ballhandler nirvana and one of them needs to or be replaced with someone who can.

[JR Hawks]

I said this at the time. Right or wrong, firing Ime for having a consensual affair with a white executive’s wife is really bad optics for players on the team and around the league.

The black man was fired. The white woman kept her job. The players remember that every time they see her at the facility.

[31to6]

If the players are still mad about this Brad needs to look them in the eye and tell them to shut the **** up and that this isn't a locker room situation. This a workplace situation. It involves power dynamics and the potential of abuse for that. It involves workplace culture not in a locker room but in an office setting. It involves perception of favoritism in opportunities for development offered to for someone's career. It involves favoritism in compensation based. In other words, it involves a whole host of issues that none of them have a **** clue since their line of work out of college has never put them in those situations.

He should tell them how dumb and ignorant it is for them to think who they liked as a basketball coach as jack **** to do with how an organization is going to handle workplace relationship rules and issues.

It could certainly be that Brad has said exactly that -- maybe multiple times -- to the players since last September, and then the issue becomes a) guess how they hear all of that and/or b) guess whether or not they care.

[JR Hawks]

Sorry, can't agree with this. The Celtics were a wrecking machine to start the year, just a few days after the Udoka suspension. Yes, I'm sure the players weren't happy (probably weren't happy to be left in the dark either), but this debacle can't be attributed to that.

Sure it can. The new coach dismantled Ime's emphasis on defense.

You understand that we're talking about two different things here, no? Woj is referring to the way Udoka was unceremoniously suspended and then let go. You're talking about coaching differences.

.
Nope. The personnel and basketball issues can't be separated in this case. They're too closely intertwined.

[hugepatsfan]

I said this at the time. Right or wrong, firing Ime for having a consensual affair with a white executive’s wife is really bad optics for players on the team and around the league.

The black man was fired. The white woman kept her job. The players remember that every time they see her at the facility.

The reasons workplace relationships are usually disallowed by companies is because of the potential abuse of power but the person higher up. It can make the person underneath them feel pressured to stay in the relationship past them wanting to for fear of negative consequences. It can make others in the organization that find out or hear whispers feel pressured. It can make other people in charge feel empowered to hit on people beneath them. Lots of bad consequences and all of them are about the person in the higher ranking position. It's an idiotic suggestion that the subordinate person be punished for it because it only adds to the potential of toxicity in the workplace. Now you have people feeling like if someone hits on them they're in trouble too.

If the players are really mad that she kept her job there should be no pacification of that. Again, they should be looked right in the eyes and told what uninformed morons they are.

[31to6]

I said this at the time. Right or wrong, firing Ime for having a consensual affair with a white executive’s wife is really bad optics for players on the team and around the league.

The black man was fired. The white woman kept her job. The players remember that every time they see her at the facility.

The reasons workplace relationships are usually disallowed by companies is because of the potential abuse of power but the person higher up. It can make the person underneath them feel pressured to stay in the relationship past them wanting to for fear of negative consequences. It can make others in the organization that find out or hear whispers feel pressured. It can make other people in charge feel empowered to hit on people beneath them. Lots of bad consequences and all of them are about the person in the higher ranking position. It's an idiotic suggestion that the subordinate person be punished for it because it only adds to the potential of toxicity in the workplace. Now you have people feeling like if someone hits on them they're in trouble too.

If the players are really mad that she kept her job there should be no pacification of that. Again, they should be looked right in the eyes and told what uninformed morons they are.

feels like you're trying to 'well actually' away perceived racism. I don't know if any or many of the players actually perceive that here, but there's reason to suspect they might.

[JR Hawks]

Sorry, can't agree with this. The Celtics were a wrecking machine to start the year, just a few days after the Udoka suspension. Yes, I'm sure the players weren't happy (probably weren't happy to be left in the dark either), but this debacle can't be attributed to that.

Sure it can. The new coach dismantled Ime's emphasis on defense.

1) You have no idea what Mazzulla emphasized behind closed doors to the players. What he emphasized to them in practice, in the locker room, in film sessions, etc.

2) We had a top 3 defense in the league. Despite Rob missing half the season, playing well below 100% health the other half, and with Smart missing games to ankle injury and playing below 100% in a good amount of other games (due to ankle injury).

3) White made all-defense team for the 1st time in his career. Yet his coach didn't emphasize defense? lol

Joe made his disdain for a defense first philosophy very clear every time the media asked about defense...immediate pivot to offense.

Jaylen Brown confirmed the lack of emphasis on defense when he said "defense needs to be the gameplan", making it clear it isn't currently.

[hugepatsfan]

The black man was fired. The white woman kept her job. The players remember that every time they see her at the facility.

The reasons workplace relationships are usually disallowed by companies is because of the potential abuse of power but the person higher up. It can make the person underneath them feel pressured to stay in the relationship past them wanting to for fear of negative consequences. It can make others in the organization that find out or hear whispers feel pressured. It can make other people in charge feel empowered to hit on people beneath them. Lots of bad consequences and all of them are about the person in the higher ranking position. It's an idiotic suggestion that the subordinate person be punished for it because it only adds to the potential of toxicity in the workplace. Now you have people feeling like if someone hits on them they're in trouble too.

If the players are really mad that she kept her job there should be no pacification of that. Again, they should be looked right in the eyes and told what uninformed morons they are.

feels like you're trying to 'well actually' away perceived racism. I don't know if any or many of the players actually perceive that here, but there's reason to suspect they might.

"Well actually" would be if someone had an example that a white marketing manager in the organization screwed around with a black accounting intern and kept his job. Or that both were let go. That would be a double standard. That would be perceived or actual racism. If that were the case, I would be on the players side. Not about keeping Ime, but about criticizing the organization.

You do not fire the subordinate employees for improper workplace relationships. I don't care what race they are. That's dumb. If the players are upset because they think she should be fired too and isn't being because of race, then they have a stupid stance. That simple to me.

Racism is very, very real and systemic biases in the workplaces should always be discussed. It does not explain why a subordinate employee would not be fired for this relationship though.

[Celtic_Pride777]

How bad could Ime's behavior have been if the NBA felt no need to punish him and the Rockets were willing to sign him?

I'm sure that question is running in their heads.

[hugepatsfan]

How bad could Ime's behavior have been if the NBA felt no need to punish him and the Rockets were willing to sign him?

I'm sure that question is running in their heads.

If a girl cheats on you, it doesn't mean she never deserves a chance to be faithful to someone else. But it's gonna be someone else if she cheated on me because I ain't taking her back. If you're gonna have rules about workplace relationships you have to act once those rules are broken. It was consensual by all accounts... it's not like he harasser or raped her. He's not the reincarnation of Satan for this. But you gotta enforce the rule otherwise what's the point of the rule. Have to dole out the consequences. But like the girl who cheated he deserves a shot to act right with someone else.

[165bows]

How bad could Ime's behavior have been if the NBA felt no need to punish him and the Rockets were willing to sign him?

I'm sure that question is running in their heads.

If a girl cheats on you, it doesn't mean she never deserves a chance to be faithful to someone else. But it's gonna be someone else if she cheated on me because I ain't taking her back. If you're gonna have rules about workplace relationships you have to act once those rules are broken. It was consensual by all accounts... it's not like he harasser or raped her. He's not the reincarnation of Satan for this. But you gotta enforce the rule otherwise what's the point of the rule. Have to dole out the consequences. But like the girl who cheated he deserves a shot to act right with someone else.

Well the story was that he was harassing her. Whatever happened, happened, and then he wouldn’t let it go and was still going after her.

That’s what was reported at the time.

Good analogy though, I think that’s on point.

[hugepatsfan]

How bad could Ime's behavior have been if the NBA felt no need to punish him and the Rockets were willing to sign him?

I'm sure that question is running in their heads.

If a girl cheats on you, it doesn't mean she never deserves a chance to be faithful to someone else. But it's gonna be someone else if she cheated on me because I ain't taking her back. If you're gonna have rules about workplace relationships you have to act once those rules are broken. It was consensual by all accounts... it's not like he harasser or raped her. He's not the reincarnation of Satan for this. But you gotta enforce the rule otherwise what's the point of the rule. Have to dole out the consequences. But like the girl who cheated he deserves a shot to act right with someone else.

Well the story was that he was harassing her. Whatever happened, happened, and then he wouldn’t let it go and was still going after her.

That’s what was reported at the time.

Good analogy though, I think that’s on point.

Yeah true on the "harassing" reports. But that gets into the whole messiness of workplace relationships. If one breaks it off with the other and the rejected person texts them "I really miss what we had and want you back" that could count as unwanted advancements or harassment, but that feels really innocent on a personal level, if that makes sense. I don't think any of us would consider a desperate text to our ex to be harassment but if she's a coworker it honestly might qualify.

No idea exactly what happened with Ime, but the overall reporting on it seems to indicate it was more this type of harassment vs him retaliating or something. Just incessant horniness for lack of a better phrase lol

[BK_2020]

Sure it can. The new coach dismantled Ime's emphasis on defense.

1) You have no idea what Mazzulla emphasized behind closed doors to the players. What he emphasized to them in practice, in the locker room, in film sessions, etc.

2) We had a top 3 defense in the league. Despite Rob missing half the season, playing well below 100% health the other half, and with Smart missing games to ankle injury and playing below 100% in a good amount of other games (due to ankle injury).

3) White made all-defense team for the 1st time in his career. Yet his coach didn't emphasize defense? lol

Joe made his disdain for a defense first philosophy very clear every time the media asked about defense...immediate pivot to offense.

Jaylen Brown confirmed the lack of emphasis on defense when he said "defense needs to be the gameplan", making it clear it isn't currently.

Maybe Jaylen Brown should shut up and play some defense. Joe can't coach his way out of Jaylen's incompetence.

[Hal14]

Sure it can. The new coach dismantled Ime's emphasis on defense.

1) You have no idea what Mazzulla emphasized behind closed doors to the players. What he emphasized to them in practice, in the locker room, in film sessions, etc.

2) We had a top 3 defense in the league. Despite Rob missing half the season, playing well below 100% health the other half, and with Smart missing games to ankle injury and playing below 100% in a good amount of other games (due to ankle injury).

3) White made all-defense team for the 1st time in his career. Yet his coach didn't emphasize defense? lol

Joe made his disdain for a defense first philosophy very clear every time the media asked about defense...immediate pivot to offense.

Jaylen Brown confirmed the lack of emphasis on defense when he said "defense needs to be the gameplan", making it clear it isn't currently.

Eh, not really buying it. Sounds like a bunch of he said, she said. Got a link that confirms any of this?

Seems like a pretty big reach to claim that a coach of the team with a top 3 defense (in a league of 30 teams) has a "disdain for defense".

Lastly, are you aware that Mazzulla played a big role in us having the #2 ranked defense last year?

Here's a link

https://www.nbcsports.com/boston/celtics/why-did-celtics-choose-joe-mazzulla-mannix-and-forsberg-weigh

the C's have relied heavily on Mazzulla to handle things on the defensive end. Boston ranked No. 2 in the league in defensive rating last season.

"Derrick White, when he got traded here, they sat him down and said, 'Look, if you need to know anything about this defense, go talk to Joe Mazzulla," Forsberg said. "Part of that is Ime's got other stuff going on, but they trust Joe Mazzulla enough with the defense that he can lead him through whatever he needed to know. All the new schemes and systems.

[JaMarco]

I call BS on this. Why weren't they reporting this before the series and using it to predict the Celtics will lose to the Heat? They were all saying the Boston would dominate Miami, now that they are losing they always hated their coach. Give me a break.

[shackles10]

Sorry, can't agree with this. The Celtics were a wrecking machine to start the year, just a few days after the Udoka suspension. Yes, I'm sure the players weren't happy (probably weren't happy to be left in the dark either), but this debacle can't be attributed to that.

Sure it can. The new coach dismantled Ime's emphasis on defense.

1) You have no idea what Mazzulla emphasized behind closed doors to the players. What he emphasized to them in practice, in the locker room, in film sessions, etc.

2) We had a top 3 defense in the league. Despite Rob missing half the season, playing well below 100% health the other half, and with Smart missing games to ankle injury and playing below 100% in a good amount of other games (due to ankle injury).

3) White made all-defense team for the 1st time in his career. Yet his coach didn't emphasize defense? lol

When it's mattered though the defense has been horrendous. I was cutting Joe slack for most of the year, but he's in over his head. The playoffs have made that abundantly clear. It's not his fault, but it doesn't mean he's not without criticism or should be allowed to keep coaching a team with serious title aspirations.

[31to6]

The reasons workplace relationships are usually disallowed by companies is because of the potential abuse of power but the person higher up. It can make the person underneath them feel pressured to stay in the relationship past them wanting to for fear of negative consequences. It can make others in the organization that find out or hear whispers feel pressured. It can make other people in charge feel empowered to hit on people beneath them. Lots of bad consequences and all of them are about the person in the higher ranking position. It's an idiotic suggestion that the subordinate person be punished for it because it only adds to the potential of toxicity in the workplace. Now you have people feeling like if someone hits on them they're in trouble too.

If the players are really mad that she kept her job there should be no pacification of that. Again, they should be looked right in the eyes and told what uninformed morons they are.

feels like you're trying to 'well actually' away perceived racism. I don't know if any or many of the players actually perceive that here, but there's reason to suspect they might.

"Well actually" would be if someone had an example that a white marketing manager in the organization screwed around with a black accounting intern and kept his job. Or that both were let go. That would be a double standard. That would be perceived or actual racism. If that were the case, I would be on the players side. Not about keeping Ime, but about criticizing the organization.

You do not fire the subordinate employees for improper workplace relationships. I don't care what race they are. That's dumb. If the players are upset because they think she should be fired too and isn't being because of race, then they have a stupid stance. That simple to me.

Racism is very, very real and systemic biases in the workplaces should always be discussed. It does not explain why a subordinate employee would not be fired for this relationship though.

I'm not arguing the logic of everything you're saying, because you're right. And I'm entirely speculating here, but I suspect you're giving people credit for analyzing things in more depth than they might be. It is a sound-byte, short-attention span world. You get one sentence -- heck, one fragment of a sentence -- in a lot of contexts, and I suspect the world of professional sports might be one of them. To be clear what I'm saying is that some -- maybe including some Boston Celtics -- might not care to think about superior/subordinate relationships. They might just look at skin color and who has a job and who doesn't -- full stop. That's it. Then onto social media.

I could be wrong. Heck, I hope I am. But I don't think we get enough of a glimpse to say for sure.

[165bows]

Just an FYI I had a bad headache the days I predicted a solid C's victory in this series and a Celtics/Nuggets finals, that I didn't say a thing about at the time.

Was in fact severely impacting my prediction performance to the point of it looking like it may be only 50% accurate (far below my normal 54% accuracy rating).

I'm not making any excuses it's just the report that's out there at this time.

[Smart2Nesmith43]

How bad could Ime's behavior have been if the NBA felt no need to punish him and the Rockets were willing to sign him?

I'm sure that question is running in their heads.

The NBA didn't step up when Kidd or Billups were hired either. It's pretty clear that they don't get involved in coaching searches.

Considering the NBA gave Miles Bridges a 10 game suspension for hitting his girlfriend in front of their children I really don't think they care about protecting women from abusive relationships. So their inaction doesn't mean anything.

Ime's behavior was bad enough that a multibillion corporation was willing to risk tanking their product for the following year to get rid of him. He isn't a martyr or even a victim here.