Trade/Free Agency Thread, pt 5, 2023-24 – (6PM [ET], Fri, June 30)

[Triple7]

I love the "We can easily replace what Brogdon gives us" vibe on this board.

He's the first 6th Man of the year that this team has had since Walton was here. Took them 37 years to find one.

Really easy......

I don't really give a crap that he won 6MOY.

-He makes too much $ (we can build a better team by allocating that $ elsewhere)
-Too often he was a ball stopper, a ball hog. Forced drives, forced shots, missed layups.
-Wasn't very good defensively. ONly 6'4" so we often have a lineup out there that's too small
-Too injury prone

Also, let's look at some of the guys who have won 6MOY recently

-Jordan Clarkson. Not a winning player. Ball hog, ball stopper, doesn't pass, doesn't defend. N
-Tyler Herro. Miami got better once he was out of the lineup. Had better flow on offense and better defense without him
-Montrezl Harrell. Not a winning player, doesn't play defense. Bounces around from team to team, nobody wants him
-Hell, even guys like Loui Williams and Jamal Crawford. Guys who could score but they were volume scorers, inefficient scorers, didn't pass, didn't defend, didn't contribute to winning basketball

How about a guy who almost won 6MOY but didn't? Jordan Poole. Jacks up ill advised 3's, super inconsistent player, not a great defender, Warriors couldn't get rid of him fast enough this offseason

Again, if all you need is a guy who can come in off the bench, hit some shots, play defense, handle the ball a little bit. There's lots of those guys out there. They're not hard to find. You don't have to pay them $22.5 mil a year and you don't have to worry about constant injuries.

Who was the Nuggets guy this season who was a guard and provided them bench scoring? Nobody! They had a bench scoring guard (Bones Hyland) but he wasn't working out so they traded him for Reggie Jackson who just sat on the bench in the playoffs. They had Bruce Brown off the bench but he's a wing, not really a guard. And he's more of a defender, rather than a scorer.

I agree. We can find someone cheap to do that extra scoring, but with better defense. Plus, getting Porzingis gives us that extra scoring, so i think its better to get a player, a big guard or wing, that can really defend.

[hugepatsfan]

Reports that we discussed Jordan Poole with GSW before Porzingis. Interesting. Implies to me that they do think they need another perimeter scorer besides the J's. So if Brogdon is dealt, speaks to a type of skill set they'd want back, IMO.

[robdog_5]

Brogdon contract is fairly priced if he had health. He's a good nba player. Getting way too much flack on here. He's not getting max money. He's making a fair contract for his value to a team. He's not small, he's incredibly efficient as a shooter. He's not great on defense but he's not a turnstile either. His issues are his health. If he was healthy he would have a good market for his services.

Having said that your not gonna get good value out there trading him. There just isn't many teams looking for a PG. Especially one whose health is risky.

[Hal14]

I love the "We can easily replace what Brogdon gives us" vibe on this board.

He's the first 6th Man of the year that this team has had since Walton was here. Took them 37 years to find one.

Really easy......

I don't really give a crap that he won 6MOY.

-He makes too much $ (we can build a better team by allocating that $ elsewhere)
-Too often he was a ball stopper, a ball hog. Forced drives, forced shots, missed layups.
-Wasn't very good defensively. ONly 6'4" so we often have a lineup out there that's too small
-Too injury prone

Also, let's look at some of the guys who have won 6MOY recently

-Jordan Clarkson. Not a winning player. Ball hog, ball stopper, doesn't pass, doesn't defend. N
-Tyler Herro. Miami got better once he was out of the lineup. Had better flow on offense and better defense without him
-Montrezl Harrell. Not a winning player, doesn't play defense. Bounces around from team to team, nobody wants him
-Hell, even guys like Loui Williams and Jamal Crawford. Guys who could score but they were volume scorers, inefficient scorers, didn't pass, didn't defend, didn't contribute to winning basketball

How about a guy who almost won 6MOY but didn't? Jordan Poole. Jacks up ill advised 3's, super inconsistent player, not a great defender, Warriors couldn't get rid of him fast enough this offseason

Again, if all you need is a guy who can come in off the bench, hit some shots, play defense, handle the ball a little bit. There's lots of those guys out there. They're not hard to find. You don't have to pay them $22.5 mil a year and you don't have to worry about constant injuries.

Who was the Nuggets guy this season who was a guard and provided them bench scoring? Nobody! They had a bench scoring guard (Bones Hyland) but he wasn't working out so they traded him for Reggie Jackson who just sat on the bench in the playoffs. They had Bruce Brown off the bench but he's a wing, not really a guard. And he's more of a defender, rather than a scorer.

Just want to comment on the bold. How tall do you want your backup PG to be? Brogdon at 6'4" is as tall as you can reasonably expect to ever have out there at PG. Especially in a backup role.

My point is, he was often times out there with either Pritchard, Smart or White. Sometimes we even had 3 of those guys out there at the same time.

The part you bolded was really not the main point of my post (it was maybe the least main point). I was simply trying to illustrate why Brogdon is replaceable. It would be different if he was a backup guard but had really good size at like 6'6" or taller or something. But since he's only 6'4" (and barely even jumps, can't move laterally very quickly) he plays even smaller than that. So a guy like that (who's not that big and doesn't do much else besides score) is pretty easy to find when you look at guys like shake milton, Patty Mills, Divencenzo, all those other guys..

That's all I meant.

[robdog_5]

I don't really give a crap that he won 6MOY.

-He makes too much $ (we can build a better team by allocating that $ elsewhere)
-Too often he was a ball stopper, a ball hog. Forced drives, forced shots, missed layups.
-Wasn't very good defensively. ONly 6'4" so we often have a lineup out there that's too small
-Too injury prone

Also, let's look at some of the guys who have won 6MOY recently

-Jordan Clarkson. Not a winning player. Ball hog, ball stopper, doesn't pass, doesn't defend. N
-Tyler Herro. Miami got better once he was out of the lineup. Had better flow on offense and better defense without him
-Montrezl Harrell. Not a winning player, doesn't play defense. Bounces around from team to team, nobody wants him
-Hell, even guys like Loui Williams and Jamal Crawford. Guys who could score but they were volume scorers, inefficient scorers, didn't pass, didn't defend, didn't contribute to winning basketball

How about a guy who almost won 6MOY but didn't? Jordan Poole. Jacks up ill advised 3's, super inconsistent player, not a great defender, Warriors couldn't get rid of him fast enough this offseason

Again, if all you need is a guy who can come in off the bench, hit some shots, play defense, handle the ball a little bit. There's lots of those guys out there. They're not hard to find. You don't have to pay them $22.5 mil a year and you don't have to worry about constant injuries.

Who was the Nuggets guy this season who was a guard and provided them bench scoring? Nobody! They had a bench scoring guard (Bones Hyland) but he wasn't working out so they traded him for Reggie Jackson who just sat on the bench in the playoffs. They had Bruce Brown off the bench but he's a wing, not really a guard. And he's more of a defender, rather than a scorer.

Just want to comment on the bold. How tall do you want your backup PG to be? Brogdon at 6'4" is as tall as you can reasonably expect to ever have out there at PG. Especially in a backup role.

My point is, he was often times out there with either Pritchard, Smart or White. Sometimes we even had 3 of those guys out there at the same time.

The part you bolded was really not the main point of my post (it was maybe the least main point). I was simply trying to illustrate why Brogdon is replaceable. It would be different if he was a backup guard but had really good size at like 6'6" or taller or something. But since he's only 6'4" (and barely even jumps, can't move laterally very quickly) he plays even smaller than that. So a guy like that (who's not that big and doesn't do much else besides score) is pretty easy to find when you look at guys like shake milton, Patty Mills, Divencenzo, all those other guys..

That's all I meant.

What is the list of guys who shot 44/48/88 last year?

[captain green]

Imo we can't afford to trade Brogdon even if he only gives us 50 games in his career he has missed 174 games and partial tear in the tendon of his right elbow has a six mont to a year recovery time. But we definitely need him because we ain't got a good bench now and to be honest even though I hate can't will we need him too I like Pritchard I know he wants traded but guess what we need him too. So I'm trying to figure out the best way to get better is trading can't will but what can we get for him that's an upgrade?

[Wolverine44]

Go aquire Cole Anthony

Trade brogdon and pritchard

This times 100.


Cole anthony and in an ideal world snag Suggs on the low as well.

The 2 of them, if I am correct, will match the maximum the Cs can take back in a deal involving s&T grant.

Suggs or Cole is option A in my mind

[Wolverine44]

Reports that we discussed Jordan Poole with GSW before Porzingis. Interesting. Implies to me that they do think they need another perimeter scorer besides the J's. So if Brogdon is dealt, speaks to a type of skill set they'd want back, IMO.

Wonder what the deal discussed was?

[Andrew McCeltic]

Probably Brogdon for Poole.. get younger, get some scoring pop.

[Hal14]

Just want to comment on the bold. How tall do you want your backup PG to be? Brogdon at 6'4" is as tall as you can reasonably expect to ever have out there at PG. Especially in a backup role.

My point is, he was often times out there with either Pritchard, Smart or White. Sometimes we even had 3 of those guys out there at the same time.

The part you bolded was really not the main point of my post (it was maybe the least main point). I was simply trying to illustrate why Brogdon is replaceable. It would be different if he was a backup guard but had really good size at like 6'6" or taller or something. But since he's only 6'4" (and barely even jumps, can't move laterally very quickly) he plays even smaller than that. So a guy like that (who's not that big and doesn't do much else besides score) is pretty easy to find when you look at guys like shake milton, Patty Mills, Divencenzo, all those other guys..

That's all I meant.

What is the list of guys who shot 44/48/88 last year?

1) He's gonna regress to the mean this season - especially since his elbow is all messed up now. That shooting he had last season was an outlier.

2) I'll gladly take someone else who might not quite have those shooting splits, but can actually pass the basketball and defend and stay healthy.

Case in point Immanuel Quickley (no, I'm not suggesting we get him instead of Brogdon. Knicks would never do that). Point is, Brogdon had better shooting splits last season but if you look at on/off rating and pretty much all advanced stats (especially ones that factor in defense) Quickley was the better player who contributed to winning basketball more than Brogdon did. Being objective here, Quickley should have won 6MOY, not Brogdon. Especially considering he played in 14 more games than Brogdon.

[reload141]

I love the "We can easily replace what Brogdon gives us" vibe on this board.

He's the first 6th Man of the year that this team has had since Walton was here. Took them 37 years to find one.

Really easy......

I don't really give a crap that he won 6MOY.

-He makes too much $ (we can build a better team by allocating that $ elsewhere)
-Too often he was a ball stopper, a ball hog. Forced drives, forced shots, missed layups.
-Wasn't very good defensively. ONly 6'4" so we often have a lineup out there that's too small
-Too injury prone

Also, let's look at some of the guys who have won 6MOY recently

-Jordan Clarkson. Not a winning player. Ball hog, ball stopper, doesn't pass, doesn't defend. N
-Tyler Herro. Miami got better once he was out of the lineup. Had better flow on offense and better defense without him
-Montrezl Harrell. Not a winning player, doesn't play defense. Bounces around from team to team, nobody wants him
-Hell, even guys like Loui Williams and Jamal Crawford. Guys who could score but they were volume scorers, inefficient scorers, didn't pass, didn't defend, didn't contribute to winning basketball

How about a guy who almost won 6MOY but didn't? Jordan Poole. Jacks up ill advised 3's, super inconsistent player, not a great defender, Warriors couldn't get rid of him fast enough this offseason

Again, if all you need is a guy who can come in off the bench, hit some shots, play defense, handle the ball a little bit. There's lots of those guys out there. They're not hard to find. You don't have to pay them $22.5 mil a year and you don't have to worry about constant injuries.

Who was the Nuggets guy this season who was a guard and provided them bench scoring? Nobody! They had a bench scoring guard (Bones Hyland) but he wasn't working out so they traded him for Reggie Jackson who just sat on the bench in the playoffs. They had Bruce Brown off the bench but he's a wing, not really a guard. And he's more of a defender, rather than a scorer.

That’s all well and good, but post realistic trades afterwards for Brogdon + that make us better

[sam_I_am]

My point is, he was often times out there with either Pritchard, Smart or White. Sometimes we even had 3 of those guys out there at the same time.

The part you bolded was really not the main point of my post (it was maybe the least main point). I was simply trying to illustrate why Brogdon is replaceable. It would be different if he was a backup guard but had really good size at like 6'6" or taller or something. But since he's only 6'4" (and barely even jumps, can't move laterally very quickly) he plays even smaller than that. So a guy like that (who's not that big and doesn't do much else besides score) is pretty easy to find when you look at guys like shake milton, Patty Mills, Divencenzo, all those other guys..

That's all I meant.

What is the list of guys who shot 44/48/88 last year?

1) He's gonna regress to the mean this season - especially since his elbow is all messed up now. That shooting he had last season was an outlier.

2) I'll gladly take someone else who might not quite have those shooting splits, but can actually pass the basketball and defend and stay healthy.

Case in point Immanuel Quickley (no, I'm not suggesting we get him instead of Brogdon. Knicks would never do that). Point is, Brogdon had better shooting splits last season but if you look at on/off rating and pretty much all advanced stats (especially ones that factor in defense) Quickley was the better player who contributed to winning basketball more than Brogdon did. Being objective here, Quickley should have won 6MOY, not Brogdon. Especially considering he played in 14 more games than Brogdon.

Who said his elbow is going to be messed up this year? Availability can always be an issue with him and there is his contract. He also wasn’t as great a ball mover as we expected. But he absolutely earned 6th man of the year because he was simply the best player off the bench in the NBA…..hands down.

[Hal14]

Probably Brogdon for Poole.. get younger, get some scoring pop.

Either that or a 3-team deal where we got KP, warriors get Brogdon and wizards get Poole.

[Hal14]

What is the list of guys who shot 44/48/88 last year?

1) He's gonna regress to the mean this season - especially since his elbow is all messed up now. That shooting he had last season was an outlier.

2) I'll gladly take someone else who might not quite have those shooting splits, but can actually pass the basketball and defend and stay healthy.

Case in point Immanuel Quickley (no, I'm not suggesting we get him instead of Brogdon. Knicks would never do that). Point is, Brogdon had better shooting splits last season but if you look at on/off rating and pretty much all advanced stats (especially ones that factor in defense) Quickley was the better player who contributed to winning basketball more than Brogdon did. Being objective here, Quickley should have won 6MOY, not Brogdon. Especially considering he played in 14 more games than Brogdon.

Who said his elbow is going to be messed up this year? Availability can always be an issue with him and there is his contract. He also wasn’t as great a ball mover as we expected. But he absolutely earned 6th man of the year because he was simply the best player off the bench in the NBA…..hands down.

I said his elbow is messed up right now which it is. Brad said today that he's gotta do rest and rehab for the next 4-8 weeks. There's also rumors that he may need surgery.

A dude has an outlier-good shooting season at age 30. Then a serious elbow injury. It's only logical that he'd regress to the mean a bit at age 31.

And agree to disagree about him deserving to win 6MOY. Quickley was better, he was a much better defender, was better than Brogdon in pretty much every advanced stat category, played in 14 more games.

Not to mention, winning 6MOY doesn't move me. As I mentioned earlier, look at all the past 6MOY winners who did not impact winning (Clarkson, Harrell, etc.)

[Andrew McCeltic]

Brogdon didn’t have an outlier shooting season he finally got decent looks out of Indiana - three point shooting is a lot more than the raw percentage

[Smart2Nesmith43]

Yeah and how do you suggest we get better ? We can't sign no one good due the financial cap no one will trade for brogdon he's out until November or December. And no one is going to over pay for can't will or Pritchard in a trade? Who is the scorer off the bench?

The Nuggets jettisoned their bench scorer at the deadline. Somehow that didn't seem to tank their season. Bruce Brown was their only bench player that averaged more than 8 points per game. On the 2022 Warriors, Poole was the only bench guy averaging double digits (and he started 50+ games that year so bench guy is stretching it). On the 2021 Bucks, Portis was the only bench guy scoring 10+ points.

You really only need at most one consistent scorer off the bench and Brogdon will do that for the Celtics whenever he's back. Relying on guys 7 and down in the rotation order to provide scoring is building the team backwards.

Yeah I hear ya but Brogdon being hurt who is going to do that when he isn't playing? Keep in mind Brogdon has missed 174 game in seven seasons and will miss at least the first month next year.imo you need to be nine deep players deep. At the start of the season your telling me white brown Tatum timelord unicorn horford can't and Pritchard and Brogdon when back is good enough to win the ring?

They'll play Hauser or Pritchard and keep the floor spaced. Those guys will knock down 3 threes and they'll be in double digit before you realise it. Whatever drop off in usage from Brogdon to the next guy in line can easily be absorbed by having a starter in Porzingis that can handle a much higher scoring workload than Smart.

The Celtics were arguably a Tatum sprained ankle from back to back finals appearances. While they aren't dynasty level great, they absolutely have the talent to get it done if things break their way. To suggest anything else is silly.

[robdog_5]

My point is, he was often times out there with either Pritchard, Smart or White. Sometimes we even had 3 of those guys out there at the same time.

The part you bolded was really not the main point of my post (it was maybe the least main point). I was simply trying to illustrate why Brogdon is replaceable. It would be different if he was a backup guard but had really good size at like 6'6" or taller or something. But since he's only 6'4" (and barely even jumps, can't move laterally very quickly) he plays even smaller than that. So a guy like that (who's not that big and doesn't do much else besides score) is pretty easy to find when you look at guys like shake milton, Patty Mills, Divencenzo, all those other guys..

That's all I meant.

What is the list of guys who shot 44/48/88 last year?

1) He's gonna regress to the mean this season - especially since his elbow is all messed up now. That shooting he had last season was an outlier.

2) I'll gladly take someone else who might not quite have those shooting splits, but can actually pass the basketball and defend and stay healthy.

Case in point Immanuel Quickley (no, I'm not suggesting we get him instead of Brogdon. Knicks would never do that). Point is, Brogdon had better shooting splits last season but if you look at on/off rating and pretty much all advanced stats (especially ones that factor in defense) Quickley was the better player who contributed to winning basketball more than Brogdon did. Being objective here, Quickley should have won 6MOY, not Brogdon. Especially considering he played in 14 more games than Brogdon.

His career numbers are 39/47/88. Not far off. Do you have a list of guys who do that for there career? Are they readily available and realistic gets for Boston?

Brogdon played with Jaylen a lot and without Tatum. They tried to overlap to help the scoring load with Tatum out. Brown basically tanked everyone's on/off. With Tatum on and Brown off Brogdon on/off numbers were good. I think with Porzingas you can offset Brown with him more and White who is a much better off ball cutter.

I also believe the reason Brogdon shooting percentage is slightly higher than his career is he got higher quality looks and faced lesser defenders due to have 2 hubs on offense that are better than him. His shooting may dip but I think it's more likely he continues to shoot well cause he has his whole career and he's getting better looks.

[hugepatsfan]

Brogdon's 44.4% shooting was a career high. It's definitely fair to say that's an outlier. But he's a career 39% shooter. He's had a 50/40/90 season.

His 3 years in MIL he was 48/41/90 overall. That compared to 48/44/87 last year. Not so outlier-ish. In IND he was 45/35/87 which speaks to the increased shot creation for himself he had compared to MIL and here. That's the outlier, IMO.

So yeah, 44% from 3 is probably unrealistic, but a healthy Brogdon should be looked at as a 40% shooter. That's basically his career mark (39%) and in line with what he's done when he has a role akin to what his BOS is (vs a primary creator in IND).

[ParticleMan]

The Brogdon hate is bizarre. He was literally our best player off the bench, by far. He was asked to score, when we had no bench scoring, and he did it singlehandedly. He carried that unit. Yes he can distribute but that wasn't what he was asked to do. He was asked to be the lead guy off the bench and all he did was win 6MOY. I'm not saying there aren't better players out there but the idea that this guy can be replaced by some tax MLE guy or some scrap heap vet is utterly laughable. How easily people forget our bench woes before Brogdon was here.

Yes, he's got a bum elbow that isn't season-ending, he'll probably be back latest by Xmas. Let DWhite and PP handle the PG duties till then. Hell give JD some burn. Brogs needs to be healthy at the end of the year not the start.

[Andrew McCeltic]

Brogdon's 44.4% shooting was a career high. It's definitely fair to say that's an outlier. But he's a career 39% shooter. He's had a 50/40/90 season.

His 3 years in MIL he was 48/41/90 overall. That compared to 48/44/87 last year. Not so outlier-ish. In IND he was 45/35/87 which speaks to the increased shot creation for himself he had compared to MIL and here. That's the outlier, IMO.

So yeah, 44% from 3 is probably unrealistic, but a healthy Brogdon should be looked at as a 40% shooter. That's basically his career mark (39%) and in line with what he's done when he has a role akin to what his BOS is (vs a primary creator in IND).

You know who’s got a fighting chance at 50/40/90? With the best teammates he’s ever had, less defensive attention, better looks, and a big spike in his efficiency from the post?