The Guards

[Audi]

I will go on record right now and say if Markelle Fultz signs a new contract with the Magic that the Anthony Black pick was an abject failure.

I fail to see how using a sixth pick on BPA over fit (or in this case, “fit-for-minutes”, can ever be considered an abject failure unless said pick ends up sucking ala Bamba.

[MartinsIzAfraud]

The only caveat is, if we somehow extended Cole and Fultz or something. Then I'd agree with your statement of taking someone out of their best role with no intention to play them there. Suggs to me doesn't really clash as much because he's not an on-ball guy like you said, but I think for now things will shuffle out how they shuffle out, even if at first the shapes aren't neatly put into the correct spaces.

This is pretty much exactly what MagicMatic and I are warning everyone against.

The Magic appear to be ready to attempt to navigate two distinctly different paths concurrently.

Path 1 is to field as competitive of a team as possible and make the play in/playoffs next season

Path 2 is to putting their young talent (most specifically Paolo, Franz, Suggs, Black and Howard) in the best position to maximize their development

What's going to happen when those paths converge next summer?

If Markelle Fultz and Cole Anthony are both here this entire upcoming season and the Magic make the playoffs, do you really think the Magic are going to let one or both of them walk in free agency and just hand over one of their spots to Anthony Black? That just seems completely implausible. They're gonna want to ride the momentum wave into an even deeper playoff run in 24-25, which means not turning the reigns over to what will almost certainly be an inexperienced young point guard in Black.

They're backing themselves into a corner when they definitely don't need to.

I will go on record right now and say if Markelle Fultz signs a new contract with the Magic that the Anthony Black pick was an abject failure.

Nailed it damn good post here. It’s sad but it most likely is going to happen and they’ll likely replace Cole with Black as Cole won’t want to stay in Orlando.

[Knightro]

I will go on record right now and say if Markelle Fultz signs a new contract with the Magic that the Anthony Black pick was an abject failure.

I fail to see how using a sixth pick on BPA over fit (or in this case, “fit-for-minutes”, can ever be considered an abject failure unless said pick ends up sucking ala Bamba.

It's less of an issue with off-ball guards and wings because those guys can typically play together.

I think it was BasketballRob who pointed out that last year's 6th overall pick Mathurin came off the bench for Indiana.

That is factual information. But the guy Mathurin was "stuck behind" was Buddy Hield and Mathurin still played almost 50% of his minutes - over 1000 minutes - with Hield.

But point guards? Not so much.

I'm very skeptical that Fultz and Black will be able to effectively share the floor any time soon, barring some incredible unforeseen shooting development from one of them.

So with that in mind, signing Fultz to a new contract - which would be for AT LEAST $20M per season if not closer to $25M AAV - would mean you're willingly signing a player that can't be on the floor with your new lotto pick.

It's just bad process.

[Bensational]

What Black needs a whole lot more than off ball reps is on ball reps. He's a point guard and he was drafted really high. He needs to play PG. We literally just went through this same nonsense with Suggs.

I think it's strange you take this stance. How many discussions have you had lamenting the need for shooting from the PG position? We just drafted a PG who can't shoot, and when presented with the option of "he could spend this season getting better at his outside shooting whilst getting alternating opportunities running point" you shut it down. How do you expect Black to fit with Paolo if he doesn't spend time working on his shooting? I guarantee that the prospect of Black replacing Fultz looks more promising if Black proves to be a decent shooter next season.

It was the same for Suggs - he needed to be reigned in and focused. Prior to last season people were ready to call him a bust who can't shoot, and now he's looking like he's back on track. We want to develop Black for longterm success, not just throw him into big minutes to sink or swim just because he was drafted high. We've been through that phase of the rebuild and found our gold at the expense of W's. Unless Black is advanced and ready to run an NBA offense at a young age there isn't a lot to be gained by throwing him into situations he's unprepared for. We'll see through summer league and preseason how ready he is. I trust Mosley to give him the role and responsibilities he's ready for.

[Knightro]

I think it's strange you take this stance. How many discussions have you had lamenting the need for shooting from the PG position? We just drafted a PG who can't shoot, and when presented with the option of "he could spend this season getting better at his outside shooting whilst getting alternating opportunities running point" you shut it down. How do you expect Black to fit with Paolo if he doesn't spend time working on his shooting? I guarantee that the prospect of Black replacing Fultz looks more promising if Black proves to be a decent shooter next season.

It was the same for Suggs - he needed to be reigned in and focused. Prior to last season people were ready to call him a bust who can't shoot, and now he's looking like he's back on track. We want to develop Black for longterm success, not just throw him into big minutes to sink or swim just because he was drafted high. We've been through that phase of the rebuild and found our gold at the expense of W's. Unless Black is advanced and ready to run an NBA offense at a young age there isn't a lot to be gained by throwing him into situations he's unprepared for. We'll see through summer league and preseason how ready he is. I trust Mosley to give him the role and responsibilities he's ready for.

Anthony Black doesn't fit with Franz and Paolo all that well right now. I've never suggested differently. If he doesn't develop as a shooter, he won't ever be a particularly great fit even if the rest of his game turns out to be good.

But what I do know is that Black is 19 year old and hasn't even played in an NBA game yet. His runway for developing as a shooter is a lot longer than Fultz's. He's also cost controlled for the next 5 years.

Fultz is 25 and is going into his 7th NBA season. He's also one year away from commanding a new contract for anywhere from $20 to $25M annually. I also know the most 3PT makes he's ever had in a season is 36. He's not a willing shooter, nor is he a good shooter and frankly he's just never going to develop into one.

If I end up wrong on that, so be it, serve me up the biggest plate of crow of all time and I'll choke it down. But it's beyond clear to me the "Markelle might get back to his Washington form and be a good shooter!" ship has simply sailed.

Back to Black...

If a player is a bad shooter, but a good/great passer, why on earth would I want the coaches to use him in a role where he's going to be asked to shoot more than pass? That is completely counterproductive to everything. That is not how you develop a player.

If Anthony Black is going to develop as a shooter long-term, he's going to develop it in the gym during the offseason with skill development coaches (both private coaches and with the Magic's in-house staff) and then he'll need to implement it during games. He's not going to develop it playing off the basketball and racking up miss after miss while his other useful on ball talents like passing and drawing fouls go to waste.

[Bensational]

The Magic appear to be ready to attempt to navigate two distinctly different paths concurrently.

Path 1 is to field as competitive of a team as possible and make the play in/playoffs next season

Path 2 is to putting their young talent (most specifically Paolo, Franz, Suggs, Black and Howard) in the best position to maximize their development

What's going to happen when those paths converge next summer?

We don't know - that's why we play the games and find out. We have to see if the run-it-back guys can remain competitive or if it was a mirage. We have to see if guys can stay healthy. We have to see if any players have improved enough to force their way into bigger roles, including the rookies. We have to see who fits and who doesn't and if that can be fixed.

If Markelle Fultz and Cole Anthony are both here this entire upcoming season and the Magic make the playoffs, do you really think the Magic are going to let one or both of them walk in free agency and just hand over one of their spots to Anthony Black? That just seems completely implausible. They're gonna want to ride the momentum wave into an even deeper playoff run in 24-25, which means not turning the reigns over to what will almost certainly be an inexperienced young point guard in Black.

They're backing themselves into a corner when they definitely don't need to.

I will go on record right now and say if Markelle Fultz signs a new contract with the Magic that the Anthony Black pick was an abject failure.

If Black looks ready to take over from one of the two, then I think the Magic have given themselves the bargaining power not to be forced into making bad deals to Fultz or Cole. If Fultz wants too much, they let him walk and Black takes his place. If Cole wants too much, they let him walk and Black takes his place. It's completely rational that if WeHam are presented with Fultz and Cole both wanting starters money that they would choose not to resign one of them. Money always has the last word, and I don't see WeHam extending both for big money. Just because they know that, though, doesn't mean they know who they're going to spend the money on yet. And if Black looks like the best PG, he'll end up the starter.

Even if Fultz is resigned, it's not a permanent block to Black. In 3-4 years time Black could indicate he won't sign an extension unless he gets promoted? We've got 3-4 years until that happens though.

[Petre1978]

I will go on record right now and say if Markelle Fultz signs a new contract with the Magic that the Anthony Black pick was an abject failure.

I fail to see how using a sixth pick on BPA over fit (or in this case, “fit-for-minutes”, can ever be considered an abject failure unless said pick ends up sucking ala Bamba.

It's less of an issue with off-ball guards and wings because those guys can typically play together.

I think it was BasketballRob who pointed out that last year's 6th overall pick Mathurin came off the bench for Indiana.

That is factual information. But the guy Mathurin was "stuck behind" was Buddy Hield and Mathurin still played almost 50% of his minutes - over 1000 minutes - with Hield.

But point guards? Not so much.

I'm very skeptical that Fultz and Black will be able to effectively share the floor any time soon, barring some incredible unforeseen shooting development from one of them.

So with that in mind, signing Fultz to a new contract - which would be for AT LEAST $20M per season if not closer to $25M AAV - would mean you're willingly signing a player that can't be on the floor with your new lotto pick.

It's just bad process.

Call the FO and explain that to them.
They will surely listen to you.

[Petre1978]

What Black needs a whole lot more than off ball reps is on ball reps. He's a point guard and he was drafted really high. He needs to play PG. We literally just went through this same nonsense with Suggs.

I think it's strange you take this stance. How many discussions have you had lamenting the need for shooting from the PG position? We just drafted a PG who can't shoot, and when presented with the option of "he could spend this season getting better at his outside shooting whilst getting alternating opportunities running point" you shut it down. How do you expect Black to fit with Paolo if he doesn't spend time working on his shooting? I guarantee that the prospect of Black replacing Fultz looks more promising if Black proves to be a decent shooter next season.

It was the same for Suggs - he needed to be reigned in and focused. Prior to last season people were ready to call him a bust who can't shoot, and now he's looking like he's back on track. We want to develop Black for longterm success, not just throw him into big minutes to sink or swim just because he was drafted high. We've been through that phase of the rebuild and found our gold at the expense of W's. Unless Black is advanced and ready to run an NBA offense at a young age there isn't a lot to be gained by throwing him into situations he's unprepared for. We'll see through summer league and preseason how ready he is. I trust Mosley to give him the role and responsibilities he's ready for.

100% agree!!!

[Petre1978]

The Magic appear to be ready to attempt to navigate two distinctly different paths concurrently.

Path 1 is to field as competitive of a team as possible and make the play in/playoffs next season

Path 2 is to putting their young talent (most specifically Paolo, Franz, Suggs, Black and Howard) in the best position to maximize their development

What's going to happen when those paths converge next summer?

We don't know - that's why we play the games and find out. We have to see if the run-it-back guys can remain competitive or if it was a mirage. We have to see if guys can stay healthy. We have to see if any players have improved enough to force their way into bigger roles, including the rookies. We have to see who fits and who doesn't and if that can be fixed.

If Markelle Fultz and Cole Anthony are both here this entire upcoming season and the Magic make the playoffs, do you really think the Magic are going to let one or both of them walk in free agency and just hand over one of their spots to Anthony Black? That just seems completely implausible. They're gonna want to ride the momentum wave into an even deeper playoff run in 24-25, which means not turning the reigns over to what will almost certainly be an inexperienced young point guard in Black.

They're backing themselves into a corner when they definitely don't need to.

I will go on record right now and say if Markelle Fultz signs a new contract with the Magic that the Anthony Black pick was an abject failure.

If Black looks ready to take over from one of the two, then I think the Magic have given themselves the bargaining power not to be forced into making bad deals to Fultz or Cole. If Fultz wants too much, they let him walk and Black takes his place. If Cole wants too much, they let him walk and Black takes his place. It's completely rational that if WeHam are presented with Fultz and Cole both wanting starters money that they would choose not to resign one of them. Money always has the last word, and I don't see WeHam extending both for big money. Just because they know that, though, doesn't mean they know who they're going to spend the money on yet. And if Black looks like the best PG, he'll end up the starter.

Even if Fultz is resigned, it's not a permanent block to Black. In 3-4 years time Black could indicate he won't sign an extension unless he gets promoted? We've got 3-4 years until that happens though.

Also my opinion.
Great post.

[Bensational]

If a player is a bad shooter, but a good/great passer, why on earth would I want the coaches to use him in a role where he's going to be asked to shoot more than pass? That is completely counterproductive to everything. That is not how you develop a player.

If Anthony Black is going to develop as a shooter long-term, he's going to develop it in the gym during the offseason with skill development coaches (both private coaches and with the Magic's in-house staff) and then he'll need to implement it during games. He's not going to develop it playing off the basketball and racking up miss after miss while his other useful on ball talents like passing and drawing fouls go to waste.

How else is he going to prove if he's developing as a shooter if he's not taking shots in game? Misses will come as a result of that - especially on a shot that is more or less a 1/3 shot anyway. Being a good shooter is about being able to forget the last miss when you take the next shot. I don't think Black has that in him currently and I'd like to try and bring it out of him. If you anticipate a particular skill being of high requirement for player fit, then prioritise that development, especially in a rookie year where struggles are forgiven much more readily.

That doesn't mean he excludes doing anything else - he's still going to get touches and opportunities to run point. I mean, do you seriously think Anthony Black won't get much opportunity to show if he can run point or not this season? Have we ever done that? Drafted a player and not allowed them to play their game? No, but same as Fultz, we want him to be a threat to launch from 3 and be thinking shoot as much as he's thinking drive and dish.

[Knightro]

If Black looks ready to take over from one of the two, then I think the Magic have given themselves the bargaining power not to be forced into making bad deals to Fultz or Cole. If Fultz wants too much, they let him walk and Black takes his place. If Cole wants too much, they let him walk and Black takes his place. It's completely rational that if WeHam are presented with Fultz and Cole both wanting starters money that they would choose not to resign one of them. Money always has the last word, and I don't see WeHam extending both for big money. Just because they know that, though, doesn't mean they know who they're going to spend the money on yet. And if Black looks like the best PG, he'll end up the starter.

Even if Fultz is resigned, it's not a permanent block to Black. In 3-4 years time Black could indicate he won't sign an extension unless he gets promoted? We've got 3-4 years until that happens though.

Whew buddy. Not only are you fine with the present situation, but you’re just admitted that you’re fine compounding the problem even further by resigning Fultz to a big long-term deal.

Just wow. I really have nothing else for you on this one.

[Knightro]

That doesn't mean he excludes doing anything else - he's still going to get touches and opportunities to run point. I mean, do you seriously think Anthony Black won't get much opportunity to show if he can run point or not this season? Have we ever done that? Drafted a player and not allowed them to play their game? No, but same as Fultz, we want him to be a threat to launch from 3 and be thinking shoot as much as he's thinking drive and dish.

If the Magic run it back with both Fultz and Anthony on the roster, then no I do not anticipate Black playing much point guard at all this upcoming season.

If they trade one of them before the season, then sure, that changes things.

But if they keep both incumbents and one of the justifications is “well Black will get PG reps if one of them gets injured!” - that’s just not good enough.

[Audi]

I will go on record right now and say if Markelle Fultz signs a new contract with the Magic that the Anthony Black pick was an abject failure.

I fail to see how using a sixth pick on BPA over fit (or in this case, “fit-for-minutes”, can ever be considered an abject failure unless said pick ends up sucking ala Bamba.

It's less of an issue with off-ball guards and wings because those guys can typically play together.

I think it was BasketballRob who pointed out that last year's 6th overall pick Mathurin came off the bench for Indiana.

That is factual information. But the guy Mathurin was "stuck behind" was Buddy Hield and Mathurin still played almost 50% of his minutes - over 1000 minutes - with Hield.

But point guards? Not so much.

I'm very skeptical that Fultz and Black will be able to effectively share the floor any time soon, barring some incredible unforeseen shooting development from one of them.

So with that in mind, signing Fultz to a new contract - which would be for AT LEAST $20M per season if not closer to $25M AAV - would mean you're willingly signing a player that can't be on the floor with your new lotto pick.

It's just bad process.

Then it’s just bad process, independent of the pick. The only way Anthony Black at 6 is a failure is if Anthony Black fails.

I said this months and months ago - the Fultz situation will work itself out. He’s either going to fit in with Weltham's vision or he’s not. One of their first moves was sending Elfrid packing because they recognized his shooting deficiencies couldn’t be compensated by his strengths. They’ll do the same with Fultz if they feel the same way. They may already feel that way, who knows. Point is, he either fits into their vision or he doesn’t. We’ll find out soon.

[Bensational]

If Black looks ready to take over from one of the two, then I think the Magic have given themselves the bargaining power not to be forced into making bad deals to Fultz or Cole. If Fultz wants too much, they let him walk and Black takes his place. If Cole wants too much, they let him walk and Black takes his place. It's completely rational that if WeHam are presented with Fultz and Cole both wanting starters money that they would choose not to resign one of them. Money always has the last word, and I don't see WeHam extending both for big money. Just because they know that, though, doesn't mean they know who they're going to spend the money on yet. And if Black looks like the best PG, he'll end up the starter.

Even if Fultz is resigned, it's not a permanent block to Black. In 3-4 years time Black could indicate he won't sign an extension unless he gets promoted? We've got 3-4 years until that happens though.

Whew buddy. Not only are you fine with the present situation, but you’re just admitted that you’re fine compounding the problem even further by resigning Fultz to a big long-term deal.

Just wow. I really have nothing else for you on this one.

Why is it so shocking that a fan might be happy with the team they have for once and comfortable to let things play out as they do? A year out from Fultz potentially signing an extension, yes, I am fine imagining a possibility he might get one without knowing the circumstances of how he gets it.

I’m sorry you resent having Fultz on the team so much.

[RichCollab]

This irrational hate of Fultz. Day 1 he is still our best PG. Black may be ready to displace him half way through the season. Great!

[ogmagicfan]

Black and Fultz intersect with their weaknesses, shooting. Black has a friendly rookie contract & greater overall potential.

I feel we should trade Fultz, send him to the Wiz or Clips, something favorable for him, and should sign FVV this offseason for 4 yr/120 mil with descending salary.

FVV gives the Magic the luxury with lineups instead of having to not have Black & our current starting PG (Fultz) on the floor at the same time. A guard rotation of

PG: FVV, Black
SG: Suggs, Cole

Compliments each other well while allowing us to take a bigger step this upcoming season until Black is ready to take the reigns at PG, and FVV should be easily moveable once that time comes with his descending salary

[KillMonger]

the only real PG on the roster is fultz and now AB

[pepe1991]

Mental gimnastics required to find ways to defend mindset behind drafting PG at 15 ( 2020 draft) , PG at 5 ( 2021) and PG at 6# in 2023 and still be willing to resign top 5 worst starting PG in nba is beyond me. One that team didn't even draft.


All that in times when your team has 0 SGs , objectivlly one of the worst/least productive starting SGs in NBA ( and no backup) just so your front office can coap their PG draftee failures by playing them at wrong position.


Where one Celtics can get away with Brogdon /Smart /White combo where all 3 players at least are respectful shooters, Magic simply have no objective pathway toward sucess pairing any of Suggs/Fultz/Black together due apsolute dreadful shooting between them, in combination of very mediocre shooting of rest of a roster.

List of Magic players , still on roster who were above league's (36,1% ) average as shooter is:
Harris - 43,1%
Cole -36,4%
Franz- 36,1%

With Franz being pretty much definition of average shooter. And guess who are guys that most of us belive will be first to be moved: Harris and Cole. Because who needs shooting in league 40% of all shots are 3 ?

[drsd]

Orlando needs a starting-quality SG. The obsession of Fultz and Black at PG perplexes!

This is simple, as one example: Norman Powell for G-Harris and Anthony. We should be talking about these sorts of moves for the right-now. Not "how many years util Black takes over for Fultz".

[drsd]

the only real PG on the roster is fultz and now AB

And-1

to paraphrase to a new point:

the only real SG on the roster is third stringers Houstan and Howard.