Moderators: Morris_Shatford, 7 Footer, DG88, niQ, Duffman100, tsherkin, Reeko, lebron stopper, HiJiNX
TorontoBarneys wrote:Anyone know if Scottie is more involved with the Raps trainers themselves for his offseason training compared to last year? I would hope so. Gotta take advantage of all the player development coaches they just hired. Still 3.5 months to go until the season. Plenty of time to get better.
HiJiNX wrote:pingpongrac wrote:HiJiNX wrote:What I don’t like about the Fred on/off stats are that they negate context.
-Fred basically played without a real backup PG for the last two seasons. If he had a competent backup maybe there isn’t a huge dive in overall play when he sits.
-Nurse did not develop a way for his bench units to be successful offensively. Even in the championship year I found that the bench units didn’t score with consistent efficiency.
This of course introduces the third variable problem—is Fred that impactful or did stats indicate a huge impact because of other challenges with the roster and coaching approach?
I tend to lean toward the latter.
That said, for me, what we will lose most from Fred is how he disrupts the paint defensively with his hands and awareness. So, even though his shooting will be missed, I think Fred’s most irreplaceable skill is forcing turnovers and mucking up opposing paint touches with his activity and communication.
With Fred gone, it’ll be interesting to see if Barnes becomes less passive mainly by virtue of necessity. He’s now the defacto second creator on this team behind Siakam. I hope he takes the reins and embraces the role.
The thing is, FVV has historically had very high impact metrics. His on/off numbers per 100 possessions have typically been in the +6 range (+12 in his rookie season then +6 and +3.5 the next two seasons off the bench, -2 in his first season as a full-time starter, +9 in the Tampa season and +6 the last two seasons) and he grades out as #36 in 5-year RAPM (#49 in ORAPM and #84 in DRAPM) while he has also been in the top 50 most years in RAPTOR, EPM and BPM. If it was one or two years out of FVV's career where he posted very high impact numbers, I'd lean towards it being an anomaly and more due to the fact of the environment around FVV (who his backups are, coaching, team playstyle, etc) than FVV himself, but he has been very impactful every season but one in multiple roles and under two different coaches. It seems a bit unfair to credit his star-like impact numbers mostly to how bad his teammates have been the last few seasons lol.
On topic, I am expecting a rough start to the season from Scottie if the roster stays as it is right now. We are going to need him to step up into the 2nd (or even 1st) option slot and I think it will be a struggle for him to find a balance between being aggressive and knowing when to defer in that heightened role. We have a decent sample of Scottie without Siakam + FVV in his career thus far (~700 minutes) in which he averaged 14.5/6.5/6.0 per36 on 49 TS% – and we are going to see that a lot more frequently this season too with similarly inadequate spacing. The hope and expectation is that Scottie comes into the season with an improved handle and shot while the freedom of being #2 (or, again, even #1) gives him more of an opportunity to work through some things, but I think we need to temper our expectations a bit – especially out of the gates. I fully expect a breakout kind of season from Scottie. It's just more than likely going to take some time and we won't see him start to take that leap until December/January IMO.
Regarding Fred, I tend to agree that he’s an impact player. I think the size of his impact is debatable. No, that’s not what I think. More accurately, I think he has huge impact as a complimentary player but his impact has diminishing returns the more responsibility he has on the team. He isn’t a guy you can win with (in the playoffs) as a top two guy on your team, regardless of what the impact stats say. He just has two very exploitable limitations that he unfortunately can’t correct—size and foot speed. He needs hiding defensively in a playoff environment and he isn’t efficient enough offensively to make up for it.
As for Scottie, I agree with you completely. That’s exactly the kind of season I expect from him. Those first 20-30 games are gonna be rough, though. I hope he’s mentally ready for it.
HiJiNX wrote:pingpongrac wrote:HiJiNX wrote:What I don’t like about the Fred on/off stats are that they negate context.
-Fred basically played without a real backup PG for the last two seasons. If he had a competent backup maybe there isn’t a huge dive in overall play when he sits.
-Nurse did not develop a way for his bench units to be successful offensively. Even in the championship year I found that the bench units didn’t score with consistent efficiency.
This of course introduces the third variable problem—is Fred that impactful or did stats indicate a huge impact because of other challenges with the roster and coaching approach?
I tend to lean toward the latter.
That said, for me, what we will lose most from Fred is how he disrupts the paint defensively with his hands and awareness. So, even though his shooting will be missed, I think Fred’s most irreplaceable skill is forcing turnovers and mucking up opposing paint touches with his activity and communication.
With Fred gone, it’ll be interesting to see if Barnes becomes less passive mainly by virtue of necessity. He’s now the defacto second creator on this team behind Siakam. I hope he takes the reins and embraces the role.
The thing is, FVV has historically had very high impact metrics. His on/off numbers per 100 possessions have typically been in the +6 range (+12 in his rookie season then +6 and +3.5 the next two seasons off the bench, -2 in his first season as a full-time starter, +9 in the Tampa season and +6 the last two seasons) and he grades out as #36 in 5-year RAPM (#49 in ORAPM and #84 in DRAPM) while he has also been in the top 50 most years in RAPTOR, EPM and BPM. If it was one or two years out of FVV's career where he posted very high impact numbers, I'd lean towards it being an anomaly and more due to the fact of the environment around FVV (who his backups are, coaching, team playstyle, etc) than FVV himself, but he has been very impactful every season but one in multiple roles and under two different coaches. It seems a bit unfair to credit his star-like impact numbers mostly to how bad his teammates have been the last few seasons lol.
On topic, I am expecting a rough start to the season from Scottie if the roster stays as it is right now. We are going to need him to step up into the 2nd (or even 1st) option slot and I think it will be a struggle for him to find a balance between being aggressive and knowing when to defer in that heightened role. We have a decent sample of Scottie without Siakam + FVV in his career thus far (~700 minutes) in which he averaged 14.5/6.5/6.0 per36 on 49 TS% – and we are going to see that a lot more frequently this season too with similarly inadequate spacing. The hope and expectation is that Scottie comes into the season with an improved handle and shot while the freedom of being #2 (or, again, even #1) gives him more of an opportunity to work through some things, but I think we need to temper our expectations a bit – especially out of the gates. I fully expect a breakout kind of season from Scottie. It's just more than likely going to take some time and we won't see him start to take that leap until December/January IMO.
Regarding Fred, I tend to agree that he’s an impact player. I think the size of his impact is debatable. No, that’s not what I think. More accurately, I think he has huge impact as a complimentary player but his impact has diminishing returns the more responsibility he has on the team. He isn’t a guy you can win with (in the playoffs) as a top two guy on your team, regardless of what the impact stats say. He just has two very exploitable limitations that he unfortunately can’t correct—size and foot speed. He needs hiding defensively in a playoff environment and he isn’t efficient enough offensively to make up for it.
As for Scottie, I agree with you completely. That’s exactly the kind of season I expect from him. Those first 20-30 games are gonna be rough, though. I hope he’s mentally ready for it.
HumbleRen wrote:I’m going through his best games. I really think him being the primary ball handler will take away what he does best.
He thrives in a secondary ball handling role. Wrecking havoc as a roll man.
He needs his Stephen Curry, Derarron Fox, Jamal Murray of the worlds. A great guard to have a duo tandem with. I wish the FO had the foresight to move Siakam for Hali at the time. That would of been the best passing young duo in the league for the next several years.
For this upcoming szn, I don’t mind them trying the Scottie PG experiment because on ball reps would be beneficial but ideal roster of the future is duo of an elite guard prospect and Scottie being the engine of the offence.
“We all know that we can win at the level we can get to, and we all know what it takes to get there. We’ve just got to get back to winning. That’s our main attitude, and we have the pieces to do it."
“He’s a kid that has played at a high level,” Barnes said. “He brings a lot of energy to the game of basketball defensively. Offensively, he has a great skill set – catch and shoot, being able to get to the rim, being able to finish, being athletic.”
“He’s a vet, been in the game for a long time,” Barnes said of the addition. “He knows the game’s ins and outs, so he’s going to bring that vet leadership. He’s also a very great player and a person that knows how to play with a lot of pace. He knows how to treat the mental aspect of the game as well.”
“We’ve got a new coach, so it’s going to be a new system,” Barnes said. “Everything is going to be different.
“He just has a different philosophy of basketball, of how it should be played. Throughout ball movement, high pick-and-rolls, playing the right way and making the right passes and making the right plays.”
“We all know that we can win at the level we can get to, and we all know what it takes to get there,” he said. “We’ve just got to get back to winning. That’s our main attitude, and we have the pieces to do it. It’s just on us to go out there and produce every single night and play at the highest level.”
HumbleRen wrote:I’m going through his best games. I really think him being the primary ball handler will take away what he does best.
He thrives in a secondary ball handling role. Wrecking havoc as a roll man.
He needs his Stephen Curry, Derarron Fox, Jamal Murray of the worlds. A great guard to have a duo tandem with. I wish the FO had the foresight to move Siakam for Hali at the time. That would of been the best passing young duo in the league for the next several years.
For this upcoming szn, I don’t mind them trying the Scottie PG experiment because on ball reps would be beneficial but ideal roster of the future is duo of an elite guard prospect and Scottie being the engine of the offence.
HumbleRen wrote:I’m going through his best games. I really think him being the primary ball handler will take away what he does best.
He thrives in a secondary ball handling role. Wrecking havoc as a roll man.
He needs his Stephen Curry, Derarron Fox, Jamal Murray of the worlds. A great guard to have a duo tandem with. I wish the FO had the foresight to move Siakam for Hali at the time. That would of been the best passing young duo in the league for the next several years.
For this upcoming szn, I don’t mind them trying the Scottie PG experiment because on ball reps would be beneficial but ideal roster of the future is duo of an elite guard prospect and Scottie being the engine of the offence.
Los_29 wrote:HumbleRen wrote:I’m going through his best games. I really think him being the primary ball handler will take away what he does best.
He thrives in a secondary ball handling role. Wrecking havoc as a roll man.
He needs his Stephen Curry, Derarron Fox, Jamal Murray of the worlds. A great guard to have a duo tandem with. I wish the FO had the foresight to move Siakam for Hali at the time. That would of been the best passing young duo in the league for the next several years.
For this upcoming szn, I don’t mind them trying the Scottie PG experiment because on ball reps would be beneficial but ideal roster of the future is duo of an elite guard prospect and Scottie being the engine of the offence.
Steph Curry is the best shooter of all-time. You just don’t grab guys like that easily. Lol.
And this is the first I’ve heard that Sacramento offered us Haliburton for Pascal? When was this? And where did you hear this?
Fairview4Life wrote:Los_29 wrote:HumbleRen wrote:I’m going through his best games. I really think him being the primary ball handler will take away what he does best.
He thrives in a secondary ball handling role. Wrecking havoc as a roll man.
He needs his Stephen Curry, Derarron Fox, Jamal Murray of the worlds. A great guard to have a duo tandem with. I wish the FO had the foresight to move Siakam for Hali at the time. That would of been the best passing young duo in the league for the next several years.
For this upcoming szn, I don’t mind them trying the Scottie PG experiment because on ball reps would be beneficial but ideal roster of the future is duo of an elite guard prospect and Scottie being the engine of the offence.
Steph Curry is the best shooter of all-time. You just don’t grab guys like that easily. Lol.
And this is the first I’ve heard that Sacramento offered us Haliburton for Pascal? When was this? And where did you hear this?
If they took Sabonis for him then offering Pascal might have gotten it done too, one would assume.
HumbleRen wrote:on Darko“We’ve got a new coach, so it’s going to be a new system,” Barnes said. “Everything is going to be different.
“He just has a different philosophy of basketball, of how it should be played. Throughout ball movement, high pick-and-rolls, playing the right way and making the right passes and making the right plays.”
junot111 wrote:HumbleRen wrote:I’m going through his best games. I really think him being the primary ball handler will take away what he does best.
He thrives in a secondary ball handling role. Wrecking havoc as a roll man.
He needs his Stephen Curry, Derarron Fox, Jamal Murray of the worlds. A great guard to have a duo tandem with. I wish the FO had the foresight to move Siakam for Hali at the time. That would of been the best passing young duo in the league for the next several years.
For this upcoming szn, I don’t mind them trying the Scottie PG experiment because on ball reps would be beneficial but ideal roster of the future is duo of an elite guard prospect and Scottie being the engine of the offence.
People keep pushing this point Scottie agenda and it makes no sense. What would he do with the ball in his hands? He doesn't have the quickness or handle to blow by perimeter players, and he can't shoot. His most effective on ball skill is backing down in the post and shooting a jump hook. Is he going to back down players from the 3pt line? Lol
HumbleRen wrote:I wish the FO had the foresight to move Siakam for Hali at the time.
Raps in 4 wrote:junot111 wrote:HumbleRen wrote:I’m going through his best games. I really think him being the primary ball handler will take away what he does best.
He thrives in a secondary ball handling role. Wrecking havoc as a roll man.
He needs his Stephen Curry, Derarron Fox, Jamal Murray of the worlds. A great guard to have a duo tandem with. I wish the FO had the foresight to move Siakam for Hali at the time. That would of been the best passing young duo in the league for the next several years.
For this upcoming szn, I don’t mind them trying the Scottie PG experiment because on ball reps would be beneficial but ideal roster of the future is duo of an elite guard prospect and Scottie being the engine of the offence.
People keep pushing this point Scottie agenda and it makes no sense. What would he do with the ball in his hands? He doesn't have the quickness or handle to blow by perimeter players, and he can't shoot. His most effective on ball skill is backing down in the post and shooting a jump hook. Is he going to back down players from the 3pt line? Lol
He'd obviously need to develop his shot. But the rest of those skills aren't needed to play "PG" effectively (see Jokic).