What's the strongest data-driven argument for Michael Jordan as GOAT?

[Yank3525]

that's because 70% of the members were born in the 90s

Not really. There’s a fantastic player ranking project going on in the player comparison board with actual substantive debate full of nuanced discussion. Much better than the post quality you see here.

Those guys are all clowns who fall back on cumulative stats because that's all they have.

But they can have that corner of the internet. Even flat-earthers have a space to feel safe nowadays.

Sent from my SM-S918U1 using Tapatalk

Yeah, they are fanboys who have their bias and pick and choose the stats they like to support the player they stan. This isn’t just a Bron thing either, the PC board has been a joke for years.

[anatomicbomb]

Sounds like excuses to me.

Pippen almost came back from 3-1 vs prime Shaw and baby Kobe in 2000 WCF.
He was older than when he lost with Hakeem and Charles.

We know Lebron has failures, and he gets grilled with them. He lost in Olympics, ok we count that against him.
He lost to Dwight in ECF. Sure, We count that against him.

But answer the questions don't dance around it.

Why did MJ not do anything without Pippen and Phil?
And how come LeBron went on deep playoff runs with different players and coaches, super teams or not?

you keep asking that question like it means anything. jordan didn't do anything without them because you need a team to win. when jordan got a good team he won six rings. lebron has jumped for superstar filled team to superstar filled team and has won two less rings in 5 more years.

Nice, So one of the criteria to be GOAT is win only when you have the best team, and do absolutely nothing without it?

I also said super team or not, Lebron has gone on deep playoff runs.
Don't dance around the questions, man up and answer them.

lmao "man up" and answer the preposterous questions. this place is too much sometimes

[OhayoKD]

There isn't one.

Go watch this video and rethink.

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

So box-aggregates/box-hybrids over specific frames(aupm and pipm favor Lebron in most comparisons fwiw)? Wild how little support for the supposedly greatest winner(sorry russ) has to do with winning

[Dirk]

Its funny you're still masquerading as a Bulls fan when we all know you're just a Lebron stan. Over 3/4's of your post are about Lebron

Imagine being such a simpleton that you can't envision being a LeBron fan and a Bulls fan. That's some caveman, tribalism stuff right there.

Ah the typical RGM moderating where people who are siding with Lebron or Curry can throw insults left and right and other people get forum warnings.

Are you aware that "RGM moderating" have been looking the other way when you make posts such as these?

Unless your goal is to get banned, stop acting this way.

[OhayoKD]

Box score stats and counting rings seems to be the limit of a data-driven argument for Jordan

And BPM, WS/48, PER...
So to recap, Jordan's only arguments are raw box score stats, titles, and advanced stats.

What a lousy argument he has

I believe he is counting "box-score aggregates" as "box-score stats"(which mostly swing towards Lebron btw(average of best years, or similar time frames))).

If you want to know how Jordan stacks up by winning:
Lebron vs Jordan

Spoiler:

There is very little of what "you" consider impact data but of course you are rather inconsistent with what is "good-faith" running with WOWYR while complaining about much more straightforward "adjustments". As it so happens, "WOWYR" is the one and only type of metric Jordan actually looks "good" in relative to Lebron. Using your standard of what counts as an impact metric we have:

-> Playoff on/off
(Lebron looks better)
-> On/off
(Lebron looks better, 97/98 rank below 17 and 18 lebron years respectively)
-> On+ON/off
(Lebron looks better, 2nd and 5th best regular season teams rank 8th and 11th respectively)
-> WOWY
(Lebron looks better, and Jordan ranks 4th amongst his contemporaries, literally does not matter what you use)
-> Indirect samples(what eminece outlined in the #2), Lebron looks much better
-> AUPM
(Lebron looks better with the exception of 3-year consecutive where MJ is a bit behind Duncan)
-> Squared RAPM
(Lebron looks better in the same set)
-> Full RAPM
(Lebron looks better with the potential for Jordan to close in if his early years score better)

Why don't we start with the large-samples which are not "limited"? We have 82 games telling us the Bulls were a 28-win team in 1984. They were a 30-win team without Jordan in 1986. That team then got better with additions such as oakley. And then, pre-triangle(a scheme that turned the Bulls from a good offense and a below average defense into a historically great offense and a -3 defense over the course of a season), the Bulls peaked at +2 at a 52 or 53-win pace(ben takes the former, eballa extrapolates the latter based on a 28 game-sample after a trade). If we unreasonably give Jordan all the credit for that improvement, out 82-game off sample leaves Jordan at +8.

That is

-> lower lift on a weaker team than what Kareem manages on the 77 Lakers if we ignore they traded significant pieces for Kareem.
-> within range of several kareem marks including when he was a rookie
(note the gap actually becomes quite large when you consider that srs was suppressed post-merger and championship teams of that era ranged from +4 to +6)
-> Dramatically worse than what we see with the same starting rotation(without Lebron) from the 11 cavs who go from 61-wins to 18-wins over a 21-game sample(19-win for the season overall), and worse than what we see over substantial without samples in the second cleveland stint(the most favorable appraisal of the cast gets lebron taking a 30-win team to 60 in the regular season) and small ones for Miami(40 to 60)
-> on the level of what we see with 69 Bill Russell, a retiring player-coach who had just knocked out a gauntlet tougher than any Micheal faced on the Bulls(marginally better replacement fwiw)
-> On par with what we see with 04/05 Duncan through injuries over a substantial sample(he would win a championship in 03 with a weaker version of what he had in 05)
-> On par with multiple substantial samples for Hakeem
-> Worse than substantial samples for Magic


We can also use 94 and 95 where the Bulls(with us inflating 93 by using the bulls full-strength rs-rating) only drop by 5.5-points in the regular season and 2-points in the playoffs making for an overall drop of "5" for the season(this is similar to what we get for 08/09 kg).

We can also look to 86 and 95 and the result remains the same. Over the largest possible samples, Jordan does not look on par with the other major Goat-candidates(Lebron, Russell, Kareem). He also does not gain separation over players he is assumed to be better than including his own contemporaries(magic is consistently advantaged, and Hakeem is competitive in the rs to go along with nigh unrivalled team-level playoff elevation)

If you are looking for the largest sample-sizes, that is what we have. I can make the most favorable assumptions and Jordan still does not reach the same heights as players he is considered comparable with. That is the lede. If you are going to "summarize all the available impact data for Jordan", there's no reason to bury it.[/quote]

Kareem(and Russell) vs Jordan
https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=107462472#p107462472

The short of it is that "winning" has never really favored Jordan as a potential goat-tier peak. By "impact" there's a much stronger argument for him not being the best player of his era than there is for him being a GOAT candidate.

And while it may be tempting to dismiss all that with the slash lines(that only capture the ends of possessions), keep in mind the box-score is a fickle mistress:
https://web.archive.org/web/20150206043545/http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/ratings/1992.html
Mess around with the arbitrary weightings and "maybe best ever" becomes "not top 3 in the 90's" real quick

[Ugalde]

you keep asking that question like it means anything. jordan didn't do anything without them because you need a team to win. when jordan got a good team he won six rings. lebron has jumped for superstar filled team to superstar filled team and has won two less rings in 5 more years.

Nice, So one of the criteria to be GOAT is win only when you have the best team, and do absolutely nothing without it?

I also said super team or not, Lebron has gone on deep playoff runs.
Don't dance around the questions, man up and answer them.

lmao "man up" and answer the preposterous questions. this place is too much sometimes

his questions are as stupid as it gets lol. that's why i ignored him lol !!! like why didn't jordan do anything without pippen and phil? uhh because his team wasn't good clearly.

why did lebron do well with multiple teams/players? because he joined teams with other superstars 3 different times? like how is this even a question.

[lessthanjake]

I hate using RAPM arguments, but...https://squared2020.com/author/squared2020/

MJ was on pace to be 5th in 85 as a rookie. He was on pace to be 1st in 88, 1st in 91, 1st in 96, and we know he was 1st in 97. Given Bulls won 67 games in 92, it's not a stretch to think he would've ended up 1st that year too. That's already more years finishing #1 than Lebron, and it doesn't even include some of MJ's best years (89, 90, 93). Lebron had years where he was outside the top 50. One of MJ's worst years (98), he was still 4th.

I've always maintained that as impressive as Lebron's 5 and 10 year RAPM samples are, they're likely not even close to MJ's - not the same z score. The only guy who compares and might even be better is Bill Russell, but we'll never get that sample.

I mean it depends on the RAPM sample you look at? There are various RAPM sources.

Per this estimated RAPM that, David Robinson the moment he stepped foot in the NBA was the NBA's plus-minus king

https://web.archive.org/web/20150218214051/http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/

From 91 (often consider Jordan's peak) to 96 (last healthy year before major injury), David Robinson ranks #1 in RAPM. Jordan is not #1 during any stretch. I wouldn't take this 91-96 stretch as meaning Robinson was the absolute plus-minus king over Jordan, but rather just a footnote.

It only goes up to 2013, but Lebron is #1 in 09, 10, 12, and 13.

By this measure, Lebron is more of a standout if we want to go year by year.

That’s not really a RAPM estimate. It’s got a box-score component, and the version of it that is just RAPM is the 1990’s-decade estimate that has Jordan #1 in the decade by a significant margin.

[ShootersShoot]

Sounds like excuses to me.

Pippen almost came back from 3-1 vs prime Shaw and baby Kobe in 2000 WCF.
He was older than when he lost with Hakeem and Charles.

We know Lebron has failures, and he gets grilled with them. He lost in Olympics, ok we count that against him.
He lost to Dwight in ECF. Sure, We count that against him.

But answer the questions don't dance around it.

Why did MJ not do anything without Pippen and Phil?
And how come LeBron went on deep playoff runs with different players and coaches, super teams or not?

you keep asking that question like it means anything. jordan didn't do anything without them because you need a team to win. when jordan got a good team he won six rings. lebron has jumped for superstar filled team to superstar filled team and has won two less rings in 5 more years.

If you replace LeBron with MJ, how rings does MJ get? Does he beat the Mavs? Probably. Does he beat the Warriors? Nope. It's a wash.

How would it be a wash if MJ would have won an additional championship in place of Bron?

[madmaxmedia]

Jordan played for one team his entire career and was forced to retire and come back as a Wizard (to leave Chicago). None of that was his fault. They were mismanaged. It is well documented.

Jordan NEVER LOST A FINALS. I am young enough to understand the LeBron argument. But, I am old and wise enough to have seen Jordan and understand he was a level beyond LeBron. The only reason LeBron is in the conversation is because he played many more seasons longer than Jordan and he has won several titles. But, LeBron has lost way too many titles that Jordan would have won.

To make this easier for younger people to understand. If Jordan went to the REC in 2k he would be a 99 rating and win 85% of the games with the same cast as LeBron who would be a 96 rating and win 70% of the games.

Are they close? Kind of but not really. Jordan had the killer instinct and did not force franchises to remake teams around him. He didn't leave teams after not getting his way. He truly stuck with the Bulls through everything until management closed shop on his team and coach a year or two before they should have.

Jordan retired multiple times and came back which further limited his statistics and gave him some rust. But, he was so good that he was still light years beyond any other player of his time (including many First Ballot HOFs).

Jordan > LeBron and it is not as close as come think. They are both unique and are two of the best players ever. LeBron's longevity is the reason he is so highly regarded. I would take both on my team anyday. But, Jordan is above LeBron and he would even admit that if you gave him truth serum or 3 drinks.

Through Jordan's 7-8 year peak (not including the half season when he first came back), all I know is there was never a time were Jordan wasn't clearly the best basketball player on any floor he played in, or in the NBA in general. Maybe the talent wasn't as top heavy some of those years, I don't know. But he was never not the best player in the league for a good 8 years straight. I'm sure there is nostalgia involved, but I actually spent the first few years rooting against him before just accepting he was by far the best player I've personally ever watched, and just enjoying the show.

I also understand there can be statistical arguments for and against him vs. other players. Jordan was the ultimate prototypical shooting guard, but Lebron entered the league a freak of nature with his combination of size, strength, and skills (and longevity.) Back in the day when big men were more featured, a great center might not blow you away with his skill set but could still absolutely dominate the floor. If Shaq played in the 70's and 80's maybe he would have statistically dominated everyone. So GOAT is a subjective term itself, and I respect other perspectives on what makes for the GOAT of any given sport.

[jerok]

Maybe Wilt is the goat kid. Maybe Russell is the goat. I never watched them play but i did watch Jordan and James play and Jordan is better.

If you are gonna run your arrogant mouth on here about substansive data backing James over Jordan you better put it on here too.

Since you watched both MJ and LeBron play, it looks like you have a lot of wisdom.

Could you please explain to us why MJ didn't do anything in his career without Pippen and Phil? Why could he only win when he had the most stacked team in the league?

And please explain why Lebron keeps going on deep playoff runs, with different players and coaches , super teams or not?

Please don't try to judge the questions, as you seem to know a lot a out basketball, we would be very happy to be enlightened with your knowledge.

You mean his first 3 years in the league and his last two when he was old with Washington? He broke his foot year 2 and only played 17 regular season games. That year he came back for the playoffs and went crazy against Birds Celtics. The East had Detroit which won two championships and Birds Celtics. The Bulls sucked when Chicago drafted Jordan. Pippen was drafted 3 years later and he wasnt very good his first two years in the league. Bird busted his back up and the Bulls finally got past Detroit when Pippen developed. Those Washington teams were terrible and Jordan was old. Who is the East had a better roster than James Miami Heat team with Wade and Bosh? Who in the East had a better roster than James Cleveland team with Love and Irving? What did he do his first year in LA without Davis? I see your sarcasm in there. Sorry you are upset pal. Just stating facts.

Seems like a bunch of excuses to me.
LeBron also had terrible teams first few years in the league, we all know where he took them in 07.
LeBron at 38 brought Lakers to WCF, he got swept, that is on him and the team. No one else to blame.
What did MJ do at 38 with Wizards?
Don't tell me AI and Paul Pierce them were vastly superior than the wizards, they still made the playoffs.

And as I said, LeBron has gone through deep playoff runs with our without super team.
Highlighting that he had the best team in the east during Miami and 2nd Cavs stint (except for 2018) doesn't answer the question I posted.

You want to try again? Don't dance around the points to make your self look good. Answer them. Man up.

[jerok]

So what was MJ supposed to do about that? Leave the Bulls to go play some where else, or ask for a new coach and second best player? that has never been the way team sports works when a star was part of something successful.. No one has ever just decided that their legacy might take a hit if they only win with this teammate and this coach...like what? The whole point of building a winning roster is to stick with it once you get something that works.

The Bulls did that when they brought in Pippen via trade during the draft and developed him into a star next to MJ. They did that when they took that chance on hiring Phil Jackson as their head coach and he along with his coaching staff used that triangle offense system to maximize Michael Jordans full potential in leading the team as well as the rest of the roster to play well around him.

I'm sorry but what is the problem about any of that again? You're being absolutely unrealistic (and ridiculous) with such a question all because you dislike that MJ and those Bulls succeeded.

Great stuff, further highlighting my point on why MJ couldn't do anything without Pippen and Phil.
Sure, let's hate on LeBron for leaving Cleveland and making super teams. I get it.
But don't meander around the real question being asked, answer it.

I've told you this before, MJ is the GOAT for me, cause he is the one I grew up watching as a Kid.
But he wasn't without flaws, like all MJ delusionals like to say.

Moving on to your other point. "Pippen almost came back from 3-1 vs prime Shaq* and baby Kobe in 2000 WCF.
He was older than when he lost with Hakeem and Charles. "

Firstly "Scottie" didn't almost come back vs anybody, the team did. Scottie Pippen wasn't even the best player on the 2000 Portland Trailblazers. That was Rasheed Wallace's team. Sheed had that same Portland squad in the Western Conference Finals 1 year before that while Pippen was trying to win with Hakeem and Barkley in Houston. Ironically losing to the Lakers in the first round then. So I get why he left but its silly to act like he did all the work, and then turn around and act like it's so historic that those Blazers did as well as they did against the Lakers. Like I said before, they were already a very good team. So all Pippen had to do was be the veteran voice that they needed, and then it worked. It also didn't hurt that Pippen was very familar with the triangle offense that those Lakers were using seeing as though its the exact same system that the Bulls were using when he played for Phil in the 90s... common sense man.

We've had many arguments before, and you have proven many times that you are on the MJ did everything side, diminishing how good Scottie or Dennis or the entire team he had through out their dynasties.

So bringing up the Team did it is kind of hypocritical on your point no?

Reality is Lebron left teams behind as soon as the going got tough on 3 different occasions. That is why he gets the hate he gets for that. When the going got tough for MJ he stuck around, worked with who he had to work with. Pippen came along. Developed into a star next to him. The triangle offense was brought in with Phil and Tex and they never looked back. It would have made 0 sense for anyone to walk away from that so that years later some fans out there wouldn't question their legacies over not winning else where. Especially compared to someone (Lebron) who kept leaving as soon as things were starting to fall apart.

We can hate on LeBron for leaving Cavs the way he did, but leaving Miami Heat squad after going to 4 straight finals to join Kyrie and Love who hasn't done is pretty far reach, only LeBron haters would say that.
And who did the Lakers have when he got there?

So when MJ knew no one was coming back after 98, did he stick around?

[oaf54]

I had chat gpt help break this down for me for fun.

If we compare Michael Jordan's statistical case as the GOAT against the next top three players often considered for that title: LeBron James, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, and Magic Johnson.

Championships:
Jordan: 6 NBA championships
LeBron James: 4 NBA championships
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar: 6 NBA championships
Magic Johnson: 5 NBA championships

While Jordan and Abdul-Jabbar have the same number of championships, Jordan's two separate three-peats and undefeated record in the NBA Finals give him an edge in terms of sustained success.

Finals MVP Awards:
Jordan: 6 Finals MVP awards
LeBron James: 4 Finals MVP awards
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar: 2 Finals MVP awards
Magic Johnson: 3 Finals MVP awards

Jordan's perfect record in the NBA Finals MVP category demonstrates his dominance in the championship series, surpassing the other players in this aspect.

Regular Season MVP Awards:
Jordan: 5 MVP awards
LeBron James: 4 MVP awards
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar: 6 MVP awards
Magic Johnson: 3 MVP awards

Abdul-Jabbar has the most regular season MVP awards, closely followed by Jordan. However, it's worth noting that Jordan's five MVPs came in a span of only seven seasons, showcasing his exceptional peak performance.

Scoring Titles:
Jordan: 10 scoring titles
LeBron James: 1 scoring title
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar: 2 scoring titles
Magic Johnson: No scoring titles

Jordan's scoring titles significantly outshine the others, indicating his scoring prowess and ability to consistently dominate offensively.

All-Star Appearances:
Jordan: 14 All-Star appearances, won the NBA All-Star Game MVP award three times
LeBron James: 17 All-Star appearances, won the NBA All-Star Game MVP award three times
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar: 19 All-Star appearances, won the NBA All-Star Game MVP award twice
Magic Johnson: 12 All-Star appearances, won the NBA All-Star Game MVP award twice

While Abdul-Jabbar and James have more All-Star appearances, Jordan's 14 appearances and his impact during those games highlight his popularity and influence in the league.

Defensive Prowess:
Jordan: 1 Defensive Player of the Year award, 9 All-Defensive First Team selections
LeBron James: No Defensive Player of the Year award, 5 All-Defensive First Team selections
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar: 0 Defensive Player of the Year awards, 5 All-Defensive First Team selections
Magic Johnson: No Defensive Player of the Year award, 9 All-Defensive First Team selections

Jordan's defensive accolades, including a Defensive Player of the Year award, give him an advantage in terms of defensive impact compared to the others.

It's important to note that individual greatness cannot be solely determined by statistics, as intangibles, impact on the game, leadership, and other factors come into play. However, when comparing statistical achievements, Jordan's combination of championships, Finals MVPs, regular season MVPs, scoring titles, defensive accolades, and All-Star MVPs often puts him ahead of LeBron James, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, and Magic Johnson in the statistical case for the GOAT title.

[jerok]

The irony is some people have twisted things around so much that sticking with a team and a coach has become a bad thing to them. Oh Jordan only won with the Bulls, Jordan didn't win with three different teams.

Man... if Jordan team jumped searching for rings how many could he have gotten? He'd have demanded trades or what ever, teamed up with people like Bird on the Celtics, or may be Utah so he could play with Stockton and Malone, etc... Heck does anyone here think Jordan couldn't have just joined the same Rockets team Pippen was on and not have won playing along side Barkley and Hakeem?

The reason people have to cite Pippen so much is because he's the only player that was on all six of those Jordan championship teams. He's the only guy that people can point to go and go oh there's some other guy we can try to give credit to.

Does it matter that Pippen's impact has been inflated solely to try and make this argument? Not to those people...
Remember, Jordan won a NCAA championship playing without Pippen. He won a Olympic gold medal as an amateur playing against pros, without Pippen. He didn't get his championship pedigree from Pippen, he was already a champion before he ever met him.

There's nothing wrong with MJ only winning with Phil and Scottie.
The problem and question is why couldn't he simply do anything without them?When Lebron could with anyone.

Goes both ways, what if LeBron got drafted by the Spurs and played with Timmy, Manu, Tony? How many consecutive rings would they win?
See what I did there?

Who was on that NC team that won the championship? Who scored 28 pts in the finals? Yet another all time great on MJs team when he won.

Problem with MJ lovers is they make it sound like MJ won everything himself. No help whatsoever.

Saying he won against international pros, back in the 80s, C'mon man.

[jerok]

you keep asking that question like it means anything. jordan didn't do anything without them because you need a team to win. when jordan got a good team he won six rings. lebron has jumped for superstar filled team to superstar filled team and has won two less rings in 5 more years.

Nice, So one of the criteria to be GOAT is win only when you have the best team, and do absolutely nothing without it?

I also said super team or not, Lebron has gone on deep playoff runs.
Don't dance around the questions, man up and answer them.

lmao "man up" and answer the preposterous questions. this place is too much sometimes

Just a simple question, there is no need to dodge or dance around it.
Some ppl can't handle the truth that's why they can't "man up" and answer. Are you one of them?

[The4thHorseman]

Nice, So one of the criteria to be GOAT is win only when you have the best team, and do absolutely nothing without it?

I also said super team or not, Lebron has gone on deep playoff runs.
Don't dance around the questions, man up and answer them.

lmao "man up" and answer the preposterous questions. this place is too much sometimes

his questions are as stupid as it gets lol. that's why i ignored him lol !!! like why didn't jordan do anything without pippen and phil? uhh because his team wasn't good clearly.

why did lebron do well with multiple teams/players? because he joined teams with other superstars 3 different times? like how is this even a question.

Who were the multiple superstars on Cleveland and LA when James signed there?

[Eagle4]

for

[zimpy27]

PC Board looking like Jordan won't be ranked 2nd all time. Jordan fans focus on dissing LeBron that they forgot to make a strong argument for Jordan.

6 titles is a drop in the ocean compared to 11

[anatomicbomb]

Nice, So one of the criteria to be GOAT is win only when you have the best team, and do absolutely nothing without it?

I also said super team or not, Lebron has gone on deep playoff runs.
Don't dance around the questions, man up and answer them.

lmao "man up" and answer the preposterous questions. this place is too much sometimes

Just a simple question, there is no need to dodge or dance around it.
Some ppl can't handle the truth that's why they can't "man up" and answer. Are you one of them?

is this part of some sort of fraternity initiation? because i'm definitely not man enough for that.

we haven't been provided a justification for the questions, such as what the argument behind them actually is, or why answering them affects perceptions of manliness. not really grounds for debate here. to be fair, a lot of the thread is people shouting at or over each other, so, when in rome i guess

[Eagle4]

Not to mention he lost with the final year Wade's prime. Mj was able to nab 6 rings with Pippen, a superb player buy not on the level of prime D-Wade. Ask yourself could you ever see MJ losing in the '11 finals In place of Bron when you're running mate is averaging 27ppg/ 6apg/ 7rpg on 55% FG, 62% TS? No you can't because it wouldn't happen simply based off the entirety of MJ's post season run. Lebron fans may say he oh has a few blunders and although that may be true. The mental breakdown he had singlehandedly eliminates him from being thr GOAT until proven others but likely assuming he'll have 2 MAX 3 seasons left while still elite, slowly deteriorating especially athleticism (more missed dunks, less chasedown blocks). His impact for certain isn't what it was so I honestly couldn't see a way eclipse MJ as GOAT.

[MavsDirk41]

Since you watched both MJ and LeBron play, it looks like you have a lot of wisdom.

Could you please explain to us why MJ didn't do anything in his career without Pippen and Phil? Why could he only win when he had the most stacked team in the league?

And please explain why Lebron keeps going on deep playoff runs, with different players and coaches , super teams or not?

Please don't try to judge the questions, as you seem to know a lot a out basketball, we would be very happy to be enlightened with your knowledge.

You mean his first 3 years in the league and his last two when he was old with Washington? He broke his foot year 2 and only played 17 regular season games. That year he came back for the playoffs and went crazy against Birds Celtics. The East had Detroit which won two championships and Birds Celtics. The Bulls sucked when Chicago drafted Jordan. Pippen was drafted 3 years later and he wasnt very good his first two years in the league. Bird busted his back up and the Bulls finally got past Detroit when Pippen developed. Those Washington teams were terrible and Jordan was old. Who is the East had a better roster than James Miami Heat team with Wade and Bosh? Who in the East had a better roster than James Cleveland team with Love and Irving? What did he do his first year in LA without Davis? I see your sarcasm in there. Sorry you are upset pal. Just stating facts.

Seems like a bunch of excuses to me.
LeBron also had terrible teams first few years in the league, we all know where he took them in 07.
LeBron at 38 brought Lakers to WCF, he got swept, that is on him and the team. No one else to blame.
What did MJ do at 38 with Wizards?
Don't tell me AI and Paul Pierce them were vastly superior than the wizards, they still made the playoffs.

And as I said, LeBron has gone through deep playoff runs with our without super team.
Highlighting that he had the best team in the east during Miami and 2nd Cavs stint (except for 2018) doesn't answer the question I posted.

You want to try again? Don't dance around the points to make your self look good. Answer them. Man up.

Dwayne Wade, Chris Bosh, Kyrie Irving, Kevin Love, and Anthony Davis were all allstar players before James teamed up with them to win championships. That means they were already some of the best players in the nba.

The Bulls drafted Michael Jordan before Scottie Pippen. Scottie Pippen made the allstar team his 3rd year in the nba. Horace Grant never made the allstar team as a Chicago Bull. Rodman never made the allstar team as a Chicago Bull. Toni Kukoc never made the allstar team. Jordan didnt get drafted by a team or join a team that had allstar talent. James did (Miami and Cleveland) or he brought in an allatar to help him (Davis).

You give Jordan an Davis in Washington and maybe things would have turned out differently. James didnt make the playoffs in LA without Davis.