What's the strongest data-driven argument for Michael Jordan as GOAT?

[zimpy27]

I thought Jordan would come back on top this year, but the gap between him and Lebron has become even bigger than in 2020...really sad story. I guarantee that more than half of those who voted were not born or walked under the table with a diapers in the middle of 90ies.

Now about Jordans teams

1990 ECF game 7 against DET (4-3)

Jordan 31pts + 8ast (27 fga)
the rest 43pts (63 fga) (Grant 10pts 3-17, Pippen 2pts 1-10)

1989 ECF game 6 against DET (4-2)

Jordan 32pts + 13ast (26 fga)
Pippen played only 1min
Sellers 16pts
Hodges 15pts
Cartwright 41min 1-8 fga 6reb 1blk 4pts

1988 ESCF vs DET (4-1)

Pippen/Grant are rookies and Sam Vincent with 12,8pts on .408fg and ,472ts is second best scorer in the serries.

1987 1st PO rnd against BOS (3-0)

Jordan/Oakley + Corzine/Paxson/Banks (other 3 starters) against BOS dynasty

Jordan won everything when Pippen and Grant started looking like real players.

I was a teenager in the mid-90s, I would suggest that I wasn't old enough to critically evaluate the product I was watching like I am now.

You'd need people to be 60+ to be eligible to critically compare Jordan and LeBron based on seeing both in real time with a critical eye test.

Someone in diapers in the mid-90s would be as useless as someone with diapers on in the mid-70s for evaluating Jordan vs LeBron... How old are you

[Taj FTW]

Man I miss when Kobe fans debated the Goat argument. It was at least fun and I could respect Kobes drive.

LeBrons argument died the moment he went to Miami. It was over then and it's over now.

Sent from my SM-S918U1 using Tapatalk

You may not have watched the NBA this long, but Kobe demanded out of Charlotte and he demanded a trade from the Lakers too.

[prophet_of_rage]

besides being the best two-way player in NBA history it's mostly just the eye test and the fact that he was clearly better than the rest of the NBA despite playing in the toughest era with the best teams and best players in NBA history. I guess you just had to be there

Lool. Toughest era, beat teams? The 90s were the expansion era with watered down teams with one maybe two stars and the rest were specialists

Jordan do
Instead a weak era like he should have.

Sent from my SM-S9080 using RealGM mobile app

[Wingy]

6/6

That’s why Bill Russell and Robert Horry are ahead of MJ

Bill, defeating those 7 or 8 total NBA teams to win those rings. Comparing apples and potatoes.

[DB23]

I thought Jordan would come back on top this year, but the gap between him and Lebron has become even bigger than in 2020...really sad story. I guarantee that more than half of those who voted were not born or walked under the table with a diapers in the middle of 90ies.

Now about Jordans teams

1990 ECF game 7 against DET (4-3)

Jordan 31pts + 8ast (27 fga)
the rest 43pts (63 fga) (Grant 10pts 3-17, Pippen 2pts 1-10)

1989 ECF game 6 against DET (4-2)

Jordan 32pts + 13ast (26 fga)
Pippen played only 1min
Sellers 16pts
Hodges 15pts
Cartwright 41min 1-8 fga 6reb 1blk 4pts

1988 ESCF vs DET (4-1)

Pippen/Grant are rookies and Sam Vincent with 12,8pts on .408fg and ,472ts is second best scorer in the serries.

1987 1st PO rnd against BOS (3-0)

Jordan/Oakley + Corzine/Paxson/Banks (other 3 starters) against BOS dynasty

Jordan won everything when Pippen and Grant started looking like real players.

I was a teenager in the mid-90s, I would suggest that I wasn't old enough to critically evaluate the product I was watching like I am now.

You'd need people to be 60+ to be eligible to critically compare Jordan and LeBron based on seeing both in real time with a critical eye test.

Someone in diapers in the mid-90s would be as useless as someone with diapers on in the mid-70s for evaluating Jordan vs LeBron... How old are you

Disagree with the premise but we can at least say you have a fairer view than people who never saw MJ play.

I too was a teenager for the MJ years, actually wasn’t an MJ first fan but regardless I wouldn’t be intellectually dishonest to say I can categorically claim he was better than Kareem or who can before him because whilst we have some data, that data lacks context.

If you were born from the 90s onwards it’s almost impossible to have a far view.

[Taj FTW]

I thought Jordan would come back on top this year, but the gap between him and Lebron has become even bigger than in 2020...really sad story. I guarantee that more than half of those who voted were not born or walked under the table with a diapers in the middle of 90ies.

Now about Jordans teams

1990 ECF game 7 against DET (4-3)

Jordan 31pts + 8ast (27 fga)
the rest 43pts (63 fga) (Grant 10pts 3-17, Pippen 2pts 1-10)

1989 ECF game 6 against DET (4-2)

Jordan 32pts + 13ast (26 fga)
Pippen played only 1min
Sellers 16pts
Hodges 15pts
Cartwright 41min 1-8 fga 6reb 1blk 4pts

1988 ESCF vs DET (4-1)

Pippen/Grant are rookies and Sam Vincent with 12,8pts on .408fg and ,472ts is second best scorer in the serries.

1987 1st PO rnd against BOS (3-0)

Jordan/Oakley + Corzine/Paxson/Banks (other 3 starters) against BOS dynasty

Jordan won everything when Pippen and Grant started looking like real players.

I was a teenager in the mid-90s, I would suggest that I wasn't old enough to critically evaluate the product I was watching like I am now.

You'd need people to be 60+ to be eligible to critically compare Jordan and LeBron based on seeing both in real time with a critical eye test.

Someone in diapers in the mid-90s would be as useless as someone with diapers on in the mid-70s for evaluating Jordan vs LeBron... How old are you

Disagree with the premise but we can at least say you have a fairer view than people who never saw MJ play.

I too was a teenager for the MJ years, actually wasn’t an MJ first fan but regardless I wouldn’t be intellectually dishonest to say I can categorically claim he was better than Kareem or who can before him because whilst we have some data, that data lacks context.

If you were born from the 90s onwards it’s almost impossible to have a far view.

The best way is if you actually rewatch games today. Using your memory from 25-40 years ago is an absolute garbage way to judge a player. The human memory doesn't remember much detail from that long ago. That's why I always laugh at the "you didn't watch them live" argument.

[zimpy27]

I thought Jordan would come back on top this year, but the gap between him and Lebron has become even bigger than in 2020...really sad story. I guarantee that more than half of those who voted were not born or walked under the table with a diapers in the middle of 90ies.

Now about Jordans teams

1990 ECF game 7 against DET (4-3)

Jordan 31pts + 8ast (27 fga)
the rest 43pts (63 fga) (Grant 10pts 3-17, Pippen 2pts 1-10)

1989 ECF game 6 against DET (4-2)

Jordan 32pts + 13ast (26 fga)
Pippen played only 1min
Sellers 16pts
Hodges 15pts
Cartwright 41min 1-8 fga 6reb 1blk 4pts

1988 ESCF vs DET (4-1)

Pippen/Grant are rookies and Sam Vincent with 12,8pts on .408fg and ,472ts is second best scorer in the serries.

1987 1st PO rnd against BOS (3-0)

Jordan/Oakley + Corzine/Paxson/Banks (other 3 starters) against BOS dynasty

Jordan won everything when Pippen and Grant started looking like real players.

I was a teenager in the mid-90s, I would suggest that I wasn't old enough to critically evaluate the product I was watching like I am now.

You'd need people to be 60+ to be eligible to critically compare Jordan and LeBron based on seeing both in real time with a critical eye test.

Someone in diapers in the mid-90s would be as useless as someone with diapers on in the mid-70s for evaluating Jordan vs LeBron... How old are you

Disagree with the premise but we can at least say you have a fairer view than people who never saw MJ play.

I too was a teenager for the MJ years, actually wasn’t an MJ first fan but regardless I wouldn’t be intellectually dishonest to say I can categorically claim he was better than Kareem or who can before him because whilst we have some data, that data lacks context.

If you were born from the 90s onwards it’s almost impossible to have a far view.

I grew up a Jordan and Pippen fan and still am. But I don't think I have a fairer view of MJ because I'd watch games and be just be waiting for Jordan to do something spectacular, highlights are a big part of the game for kids. I don't even think I understood the game well at all.

Would I listen to a teenager now telling me about player X in the current NBA on this forum? I doubt it, I doubt anyone would appreciate what they had to say.

[Onlytimewilltel]

6/6

That’s why Bill Russell and Robert Horry are ahead of MJ

Bill, defeating those 7 or 8 total NBA teams to win those rings. Comparing apples and potatoes.

And Jordan being guarded by sub par athletes also compared to this era. There are always those.. excuses, aren’t there lol

[Taj FTW]

That’s why Bill Russell and Robert Horry are ahead of MJ

Bill, defeating those 7 or 8 total NBA teams to win those rings. Comparing apples and potatoes.

And Jordan being guarded by sub par athletes also compared to this era. There are always those.. excuses, aren’t there lol

You're trying to tell me this guy wasn't a beast on defense? I don't believe it.

[Onlytimewilltel]

Bill, defeating those 7 or 8 total NBA teams to win those rings. Comparing apples and potatoes.

And Jordan being guarded by sub par athletes also compared to this era. There are always those.. excuses, aren’t there lol

You're trying to tell me this guy wasn't a beast on defense? I don't believe it.

Oh for sure. One of the Goats on defense

[DB23]

I was a teenager in the mid-90s, I would suggest that I wasn't old enough to critically evaluate the product I was watching like I am now.

You'd need people to be 60+ to be eligible to critically compare Jordan and LeBron based on seeing both in real time with a critical eye test.

Someone in diapers in the mid-90s would be as useless as someone with diapers on in the mid-70s for evaluating Jordan vs LeBron... How old are you

Disagree with the premise but we can at least say you have a fairer view than people who never saw MJ play.

I too was a teenager for the MJ years, actually wasn’t an MJ first fan but regardless I wouldn’t be intellectually dishonest to say I can categorically claim he was better than Kareem or who can before him because whilst we have some data, that data lacks context.

If you were born from the 90s onwards it’s almost impossible to have a far view.

I grew up a Jordan and Pippen fan and still am. But I don't think I have a fairer view of MJ because I'd watch games and be just be waiting for Jordan to do something spectacular, highlights are a big part of the game for kids. I don't even think I understood the game well at all.

Would I listen to a teenager now telling me about player X in the current NBA on this forum? I doubt it, I doubt anyone would appreciate what they had to say.

A teenager now, no, but in twenty years their view of player x vs a contemporary player would be far more valid than a comparison they had to Kareem whom they never saw play.

I agree that I as well didn’t understand the game in the 90s at the time. But I understand it now, and it’s not about highlights.

Data without context is meaningless.

[JordansBulls]

Bill, defeating those 7 or 8 total NBA teams to win those rings. Comparing apples and potatoes.

And Jordan being guarded by sub par athletes also compared to this era. There are always those.. excuses, aren’t there lol

You're trying to tell me this guy wasn't a beast on defense? I don't believe it.

https://thesportsrush.com/nba-news-510-jj-barea-really-locked-up-69-260-lb-lebron-james-in-the-nba-finals-baby-daddy-put-the-clamps-on-heat-star-and-helped-save-dirk-nowitzkis-legacy/

[Wingy]

And Jordan being guarded by sub par athletes also compared to this era. There are always those.. excuses, aren’t there lol

You're trying to tell me this guy wasn't a beast on defense? I don't believe it.

Oh for sure. One of the Goats on defense

It’s easier to win rings when you only have to win 2 rounds. Simple reality.

Yes, everything evolves. So the best player 20-30 years from now might as well be auto-GOAT because the league will continue to evolve and be much better compared to now.

Interesting that except for hockey, we might just be living with every GOAT, in every sport!! It’s as if there might be recency bias. A point that could be made by every generation really…from those who anointed Jordan, to Kareem, to Russell, to Mikan.

Nice sidestep though, Onlytime, to distract from your pointless post.

[SpreeS]

I thought Jordan would come back on top this year, but the gap between him and Lebron has become even bigger than in 2020...really sad story. I guarantee that more than half of those who voted were not born or walked under the table with a diapers in the middle of 90ies.

Now about Jordans teams

1990 ECF game 7 against DET (4-3)

Jordan 31pts + 8ast (27 fga)
the rest 43pts (63 fga) (Grant 10pts 3-17, Pippen 2pts 1-10)

1989 ECF game 6 against DET (4-2)

Jordan 32pts + 13ast (26 fga)
Pippen played only 1min
Sellers 16pts
Hodges 15pts
Cartwright 41min 1-8 fga 6reb 1blk 4pts

1988 ESCF vs DET (4-1)

Pippen/Grant are rookies and Sam Vincent with 12,8pts on .408fg and ,472ts is second best scorer in the serries.

1987 1st PO rnd against BOS (3-0)

Jordan/Oakley + Corzine/Paxson/Banks (other 3 starters) against BOS dynasty

Jordan won everything when Pippen and Grant started looking like real players.

I was a teenager in the mid-90s, I would suggest that I wasn't old enough to critically evaluate the product I was watching like I am now.

You'd need people to be 60+ to be eligible to critically compare Jordan and LeBron based on seeing both in real time with a critical eye test.

Someone in diapers in the mid-90s would be as useless as someone with diapers on in the mid-70s for evaluating Jordan vs LeBron... How old are you

I saw only second MJ run. I was 16-18y old when watched 96-98 NBA seasons. We value all time players with today's tools. With the same tools that today's players use to improve or shape their skills to be better. Also teams are forming with the same tools to maximize their leaders outcomes. My favorite player Sprewell is called choker b/c these days stats say he was below avg scorer and adv stats are bad. But somehow he was 39min (41min PO) per game career player and was big part of 3 teams which played in 2 CF and in one Finals. I have some topics about Klay vs Sprewell on GSW forum...there is no debate, one side trafic. Sprewell was coached by 6 different coaches and some of them were all time greats Nelson/Adelman/Jeff van Gundy/Saunders. Maybe they knew what are they doing.

[One Last Shot]

And Jordan being guarded by sub par athletes also compared to this era. There are always those.. excuses, aren’t there lol

You're trying to tell me this guy wasn't a beast on defense? I don't believe it.

https://thesportsrush.com/nba-news-510-jj-barea-really-locked-up-69-260-lb-lebron-james-in-the-nba-finals-baby-daddy-put-the-clamps-on-heat-star-and-helped-save-dirk-nowitzkis-legacy/

Read on Twitter

[DB23]

You're trying to tell me this guy wasn't a beast on defense? I don't believe it.

https://thesportsrush.com/nba-news-510-jj-barea-really-locked-up-69-260-lb-lebron-james-in-the-nba-finals-baby-daddy-put-the-clamps-on-heat-star-and-helped-save-dirk-nowitzkis-legacy/

Read on Twitter

The pippen argument is such a nonsense take.

He’s nowhere close to as good as prime wade or AD and I know it won’t be a popular take but frankly he’s overrated.

Amazing defender, sure. Perhaps the GOAT defender but look what great offense did against great defense jokic v AD - destroyed. Defense is an overrated skill set.

[TheGOATRises007]

The Pippen point would make more sense if Pippen was Jordan's equal or better than him, but he wasn't. Or even if he had very good impact as soon as he hit the league, but he didn't.

The first 2 seasons, Pippen was literally a neutral player in his career and him being on the squad had no bearing on the Bulls making the playoffs or not.

[TheGOATRises007]

PC Board looking like Jordan won't be ranked 2nd all time. Jordan fans focus on dissing LeBron that they forgot to make a strong argument for Jordan.

6 titles is a drop in the ocean compared to 11

To be fair, I think a lot of Jordan fans don't like posting on that board anymore, because of a growing bias against people making arguments for him. Even fair arguments were getting shot down, so people bother less nowadays.

And there's more LeBron fans on the PC board than Jordan fans, and I don't think I've seen people diss on LeBron during the project. Most of the posts that could be construed as 'dissing' were from the other end.

And either way, a ranking on 1 subset of a forum(even though I enjoy the PC board and its projects) isn't gospel(and I say this going both ways). It's just a fun project to partake in(used to be more fun back in the day in my humble opinion with less aggressive posters).

[LakersLegacy]

Man I miss when Kobe fans debated the Goat argument. It was at least fun and I could respect Kobes drive.

LeBrons argument died the moment he went to Miami. It was over then and it's over now.

Sent from my SM-S918U1 using Tapatalk

You may not have watched the NBA this long, but Kobe demanded out of Charlotte and he demanded a trade from the Lakers too.

Jerry West traded told the Hornets who to select before there were ever any demands not to play for a team. Kobe's agent may have tried to get him to Kobe's fav team as a 17 year old kid.

The trade demand was about the bad son that took over the Lakers talking trash about Kobe. Kobe didn't want to work for him. Kobe wanted the floor of what other contenders have. Then Kobe got a soft running mate that was a 1 time all-star reserve a few seasons prior that never won a single play-off game or scored single all-star point and was very soft and wasn't ready to be a defensive captain the first season in any real way. He backed down from physical play. Far less than the Garnett, Allen super team Pierce got to be with + have better young talent in Rondo, DPOY T Allen, Perkins. The demand was absolutely the catalyst for back to back championships in which we saw Gasol learn to play defense right before our eyes and that was really special.

--

The strongest case Kobe has is he did better by age 31 than MJ did with a tougher rival in Duncan. There were always rivalries in any other era:

80s Magic v Bird 5 to 3, 8 total
00s Kobe v Duncan 5 to 5, 10 total
10s LeBron v Curry 4 to 4, 8 total

90s MJ didn't really have a rival. Hakeem won when Jordan didn't play and when Jordan got picked by Nick Anderson and lost the series (something that seemed to perhaps inspire the '98 pick on Malone). Pippen is better than Worthy. Rodman is the best rebounder all time. Kukoc the best euro of his entire generation. Phil the best coach of all-time after proving he could win with less talent when he came back for his toughest final 2 championships with an inferior roster to anything he ever had.

Jordan played with higher points per game, no zone defense, rules where all the other defenders had to pretend to be glued to non-factor players so Jordan could go 1-on-1, those travels, etc

I love Jordan but watching some old games was kind of like finding out did the refs help santa, the legend

If Duncan, Robinson, Parker, Manu, Bowen were in Jordans era, there is at least a chance Jordan has 1 less championship + I'm pretty sure Kobe may end up with 1 more if he went against Stockton and Malone instead of Garnett, Pierce, Ray Allen, Tony Allen, Rajon Rondo, Perkins, Sheed... and thats logical, fair and reasonable. Going against 2 Team USA guys or against 6 Team USA guys. And the 2000s statistically were the toughest era to score in. Turns out triple teams and playing zone defense where the strategy is to stop penetration is very effective at lowering the average score to 96 points per game. That's where Kobe played. Not in the higher scoring eras of the 80s and 90s Jordan played. And Kobe kicked MJs butt the most. Phil had to sit Kobe when he was up to 55. If not it would have been 70 or 80 on Jordan. Phil did Jordan a solid that night. A farewell for the 3rd time present.

MJ did better overall, Kobe won more by age 31 with 5 titles, 3 championships defended, All-NBA Teams, All-D Teams in the specific way MJ told Kobe being the GOAT was measured. And MJ weeps like a baby because he loved Kobe for that.

[SpreeS]

Smart play after smart play

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On other end...standing in the corner after missing 3 fga in a row or missing the most important shot...

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