What's the strongest data-driven argument for Michael Jordan as GOAT?

[MavsDirk41]

He thinks MJ would win the 2014 championship in place of LeBron. The one where they lost to the Spurs 4-1, with LeBron putting up 28 PPG on an absurd 57.1% FG% and 51.9% 3pt% (68% TS%). I'm wondering what statline MJ would put up that would result in them winning, but he keeps ducking it.

Oh yea kid im ducking it. He probably puts up 34/6/6 or something i dont know lol. Stupid question. Go look at his 6 finals performances. I think he would do pretty good. And before you come back with your hero did this, Jordan would have done better cause he raised his game in the finals. The moment was never too big for him like James.

Lol at you saying "stupid question". Wait until we dissect your answer...

In the 2014 finals, all the Heat's losses in that series were by an average of 18 points, despite LeBron's absurd efficiency (28 PPG on 68% TS%). Even if you magically give the Heat 6 more PPG from Jordan (not factoring in that you need to find 2-4 more shots somehow, and MJ isn't that efficient), they still lose those games by about 12 points. I just wanted to show that you have no idea what you're talking about when you say MJ would win that series. That declaration was based purely on emotion (your hate of LeBron), because there's no logical explanation for thinking MJ wins that. You just got exposed, brother

First off it is a stupid question. Its like asking “what would Jordan average in todays game” or “Would the Bulls have won 8 straight if Jordan didnt retire in 93”? There is reality and there is just guessing. Jordan didnt play in the nba in 2014 not did he play with anybody on that team. You kept asking me this question just to start a fight cause that is all you do on here. But, there is no way the Heat get monkey stomped with Jordan on that team in the Finals imo. Thats the series where they had to carry ole chosen off the court cause he had cramps lol. You would have had to escorted Jordan off the court at gun point. There is no way he leaves the court like that lol. Everybody on that team would have played above what they produced with Jordan out there. He would have held them to a higher standard than that. James is the most passive aggressive superstar player i have ever seen play. He will mean mug his teammates, show bad body language, throw his hands in the air, and make comments to the media after the game. Agree with it or not, Jordan would get in his teammates face if they were missing defensive assignments, not giving effort, or playing out of position in the half court offense. He held himself and his teammates to a higher standard. Think what you want i really dont care and there is no way to prove or disprove this question, but imo that team plays better with Jordan out there. Got exposed? Lol calm down junior. Do you ever post anything non lebron james related on here? Talk about something else geezz

[twyzted]

Lol at you saying "stupid question". Wait until we dissect your answer...

In the 2014 finals, all the Heat's losses in that series were by an average of 18 points, despite LeBron's absurd efficiency (28 PPG on 68% TS%). Even if you magically give the Heat 6 more PPG from Jordan (not factoring in that you need to find 2-4 more shots somehow, and MJ isn't that efficient), they still lose those games by about 12 points. I just wanted to show that you have no idea what you're talking about when you say MJ would win that series. That declaration was based purely on emotion (your hate of LeBron), because there's no logical explanation for thinking MJ wins that. You just got exposed, brother

Who are these “we” you talk about?
If Lebron played defense in 2014 mayby just mayby they wouldnt have been whooped?
Same age Jordan but up 41ppg 8rpg 6apg 2spg 1bpg on
51-40-70 shooting splits.
That is +13ppg and +2apg with better defense.

Mayby he didnt get exposed

The PPG was 4+ points higher the year MJ did that. It was easier to score, and they weren't playing the defensive beast that was the 2014 Spurs with Kawhi. Also, MJ was far less efficient than LeBron (68% TS% vs 55.8% TS%). Then you have to factor in where MJ would find all those addition shots. Out of thin air? EVEN if you give MJ those extra shots by taking away ONLY MISSES from his teammates (which isn't realistic), that still doesn't bridge the 18 PPG gap in their loses.

Looks like you have been exposed as well. Do your research next time.

93 playoffs 99.5ppg - 82.5fga
14 playoffs 99.5ppg - 80fga
Jordan could actually shot in the mid range and kawhi isnt keeping up with Jordan.
If he isnt stopping Lebron he isnt stopping Jordan.
And he would actually defend.

Do YoUr ReSeArCh

[Taj FTW]

Who are these “we” you talk about?
If Lebron played defense in 2014 mayby just mayby they wouldnt have been whooped?
Same age Jordan but up 41ppg 8rpg 6apg 2spg 1bpg on
51-40-70 shooting splits.
That is +13ppg and +2apg with better defense.

Mayby he didnt get exposed

The PPG was 4+ points higher the year MJ did that. It was easier to score, and they weren't playing the defensive beast that was the 2014 Spurs with Kawhi. Also, MJ was far less efficient than LeBron (68% TS% vs 55.8% TS%). Then you have to factor in where MJ would find all those addition shots. Out of thin air? EVEN if you give MJ those extra shots by taking away ONLY MISSES from his teammates (which isn't realistic), that still doesn't bridge the 18 PPG gap in their loses.

Looks like you have been exposed as well. Do your research next time.

93 playoffs 99.5ppg - 82.5fga
14 playoffs 99.5ppg - 80fga
Jordan could actually shot in the mid range and kawhi isnt keeping up with Jordan.
If he isnt stopping Lebron he isnt stopping Jordan.
And he would actually defend.

Do YoUr ReSeArCh

The Heat averaged 71.2 FGA in the finals. The Bulls averaged 90.7 FGA in the finals. Your claim is completely unrealistic, and completely exposes you. I know you have a decent understanding of basketball statistics, so this disappoints me. Don't let your hate of LeBron get in the way of reality.

[ballzboyee]

You don't even need titles to prove Jordan is the GOAT. 10 scoring titles and Jordan averaged 10+ BPM in non-wizard years and non-baseball retirement year (only played 17 games). Essentially, every prime full season was all-time great regular and advanced statistical season.

[twyzted]

The PPG was 4+ points higher the year MJ did that. It was easier to score, and they weren't playing the defensive beast that was the 2014 Spurs with Kawhi. Also, MJ was far less efficient than LeBron (68% TS% vs 55.8% TS%). Then you have to factor in where MJ would find all those addition shots. Out of thin air? EVEN if you give MJ those extra shots by taking away ONLY MISSES from his teammates (which isn't realistic), that still doesn't bridge the 18 PPG gap in their loses.

Looks like you have been exposed as well. Do your research next time.

93 playoffs 99.5ppg - 82.5fga
14 playoffs 99.5ppg - 80fga
Jordan could actually shot in the mid range and kawhi isnt keeping up with Jordan.
If he isnt stopping Lebron he isnt stopping Jordan.
And he would actually defend.

Do YoUr ReSeArCh

The Heat averaged 71.2 FGA in the finals. The Bulls averaged 90.7 FGA in the finals. Your claim is completely unrealistic, and completely exposes you.

Just like your claims that Jordan would get stoomped in the finals he never lost a series with more than 10ppg.
And he did at the same age score 13ppg more and +2apg in the finals.
He played better defense kawhi isnt shooting 61% 75ts%.
He also played 8 more mpg so there are some shots there.

[Taj FTW]

93 playoffs 99.5ppg - 82.5fga
14 playoffs 99.5ppg - 80fga
Jordan could actually shot in the mid range and kawhi isnt keeping up with Jordan.
If he isnt stopping Lebron he isnt stopping Jordan.
And he would actually defend.

Do YoUr ReSeArCh

The Heat averaged 71.2 FGA in the finals. The Bulls averaged 90.7 FGA in the finals. Your claim is completely unrealistic, and completely exposes you.

Just like your claims that Jordan would get stoomped in the finals he never lost a series with more than 10ppg.
And he did at the same age score 13ppg more and +2apg in the finals.
He played better defense kawhi isnt shooting 61% 75ts%.
He also played 8 more mpg so there are some shots there.

Jordan took 33.1 FGA per game to get 42 PPG. The Heat had 71.2 FGA per game. You're telling me MJ would take 46.5% of the field goals? Pop wouldn't adjust? And that STILL wouldn't be enough to bridge the gap in PPG to win that serious.

There's literally no realistic way MJ wins that serious when you look at the statistics. You know this, I know this. You can just take your L. It happens.

[KembaWalker]

LeBron at the PC Board GOAT award ceremony to receive his title

[twyzted]

LeBron and the PC Board crew at the ceremony to receive his GOAT award

Might as well just call it the lebron board

[MavsDirk41]

LeBron and the PC Board crew at the ceremony to receive his GOAT award

Might as well just call it the lebron board

Its the “Please Call Lebron James the goat” board.

[twyzted]

The Heat averaged 71.2 FGA in the finals. The Bulls averaged 90.7 FGA in the finals. Your claim is completely unrealistic, and completely exposes you.

Just like your claims that Jordan would get stoomped in the finals he never lost a series with more than 10ppg.
And he did at the same age score 13ppg more and +2apg in the finals.
He played better defense kawhi isnt shooting 61% 75ts%.
He also played 8 more mpg so there are some shots there.

Jordan took 33.1 FGA per game to get 42 PPG. The Heat had 71.2 FGA per game. You're telling me MJ would take 46.5% of the field goals? Pop wouldn't adjust? And that STILL wouldn't be enough to bridge the gap in PPG to win that serious.

There's literally no realistic way MJ wins that serious when you look at the statistics. You know this, I know this. You can just take your L. It happens.

I never said he would win, i said he wouldnt get whooped. We cant realisticly say he would win or lose.
He took 36% of the bulls shots that series. Lebron took 26% of heats, so if Jordan thought taking more shots to have a chance he would.
You think all of the coaches Jordan played against didnt try and adjust?
He was just flatout better at winning than Lebronze. Along with everything else he was better at.

[jerok]

Probably that he, that coach and that team earned that status together. It says a lot that you can't understand that simple concept. Phil Jackson was no where near the greatest coach when he first started coaching the Bulls, and that Bulls roster was no where near the best in the league. the front office built a solid team around MJ over time.

common sense.

So, why isn't Bill Russell GOAT?
I think that falls in your Common sense section no?

Lol all you want to talk about is his first 7 years in Cleveland. Its hilarious man. You act like he hasnt played with a bunch of allstars the past 13 years. Did he make Wade, Bosh, Love, Irving, Davis, and Westbrook better lol? Did he make Ball, Kuzma, and Ingram better?

Do you understand that Jordan played most of his career with Pippen? He didnt bounce around playing with his friends or other allstars like James. He built something called a dynasty. Kind of like Magic in LA. Bird in Boston. Duncan in San Antonio. Jordan wasnt a mercenary like James. James wouldnt know anything about a dynasty.

How did James do in LA without begging for Davis to come play with him. Pretty sure he missed the playoffs.

“Your not built for this” - thats awesome man lol

No one said LeBron didn't play with all stars.
I simply stated he could win with our without stacked team, when MJ couldn't, but you fail to answer why MJ couldn't or even understand the question for that matter.

You just don't know basketball if you think LeBron did not make any of his teammates better, gotta be better than just a hater man.
Kyrie and Love, Bosh, Davis do anything without Bron? LOL

SO MJ and Pippen played together most of their careers right, how come when they didn't play together, Pippen made deep playoff runs, but MJ didn't? Maybe you'll understand the question better phrased that way, but I bet you'll dodge it cause you not built like that.

Yeah LeBron missed the playoffs, but he got injured when his team was 4th or 5th in the conference. But lets blame that on him for your sake. Still won a chip in LA tho.

What did MJ do in Washington with Pippen again? Oh, let me guess, you'll dodge the question, cause like I said, you not built like that.

Having a muscular winnie the pooh avatar and being a MJ hater just points to you being young and uneducated, you fit the bill. Most people that support Lebron as GOAT still have MJ as #2 or at least #3, you act like he's garbage.

Aww, resulting in personal jabs, cause you in your feelings, that's Ok, I understand.

Just in case you didn't know, MJ is my GOAT, I grew up watching the Bulls.
But, unlike delusional MJ lovers like yourself, I know MJ wasn't without Flaws.

Let's breakdown how delusional you are below.

Lebron had
Wade + Bosh

Who was Jordans Bosh? No one

Then Lebron had Kyrie and Love

So Grant, and Rodman were just regular folks right?
That same Grant that help bounce MJ when he returned in 95?
That same Rodman, MJ recruited to help beat the Magic in 96, while Grant playing only Game 1 of the series?

Problem with your type is how you prop up MJ like he did everything, and diminish everything his teammates did.

And don't tell me Lebron didn't have great role players as previously mentioned all time great 3 point shooters like Ray Allen. You have to really reach to try to put Lebron's career above Jordan.

So MJ didn't have 2 Top 75 players playing with him right?
He didn't have 6th man of the year Toni Kukoc?
He didn't have career 20 pt scorer Ron Harper pre chicago right?
He didn't have 3pt marksman Steve Kerr?
He didn't have Horace Grant, BJ Armstrong, John Paxson right?

Another example of diminishing players MJ played with.

It's sad that you being old and educated think the way you do. It must be that hatred for Lebron. He lives in your mind rent free everyday I bet.
Its a shame really for people that say they old and grew up watching the Bulls to prop up only MJ and diminish everyone else around him.

Let's get back to your other points, so I don't miss them.

Try to hype up the Bulls team as much as you want and Pippen, but Jordan won all 6 MVPs, 6-0. Lebron stands at 4-6. Lebron was the one who went ring chasing and teamed with Bosh and Wade in Miami, then went back to Cleveland with Kyrie and had Love trade in hand, then got AD in L.A.. Lebron failed when he didn't have at least one other superstar, usually two. And I still put Lebron as a top 5 player but he is not better than MJ Magic. I'd put Tim Duncan over him 5-1 could have gone 6-0 without a miracle Ray Allen 3 (that also saved Lebron's legacy or else he'd be 3-7 lol) Other than MJ and Pippen the Bulls had role players, role players do not compare to superstars.

Lebron also won with AD in the bubble which was kind of a joke playoffs that teams such as the Clippers didn't want to play in because they had to live in the bubble for months.

MJ was unquestionably the best player during Bulls run, hence why he won 6 MVPS.
But other than points, I believe Scottie led the team in almost all other categories during the dynasty.

LeBron did team up with Wade and Bosh, that is a fact. But he has shown he can make deep playoff runs no matter who he played with. We simply can't say that for MJ.

MJ also failed without Pippen or Phil, or stacked team. At least LeBron was getting past the first round LOL.

It looks like you base your GOAT based on championships only.
Why isnt Bill Russell on top then?
Very simple minded way of thinking.

I guess we'll Blame LeBron for clippers not wanting to play in the bubble. LOL.

[binjumper]

James, Wade, and Bosh all made the allstar team together in Miami = 3 allstars

James, Irving, and Love all made the allstar team together in Cleveland = 3 allstars

When did Jordan play on a team with two other allstar players? Meaning Jordan, Pippen, and what player?

Answer that for me please….

Also, how do we prove or disprove what kind of impact lebron james would have had on those Wizards teams? Can we actually prove what you are saying? If so how? Please explain…lll sit back and wait

It's not hard to see why. Continuously you ignore the talent of the league today and the teams LeBron faced. The league is way deeper and more talented now. LeBron was facing teams with 3-4 HOFers typically. Combinations Durant-Steph-Klay-Draymond, Duncan-Manu-Parker-Kawhi, Durant-Westbrook-Russ. These teams annihilate the teams MJ faced from a talent standpoint.

Lol all of those teams were in the west. Miami and Cleveland are in the east. What team or teams in the east were better than James/Wade/Bosh and James/Irving/Love between 2010 and 2018?

Lebron was literally beating the Demar Lowry Raptors for like 5 years. Very Strong team

[DreamTeam09]

Does he have the most final MVPs?

[JN61]

I don't know how people have patience to argue with all the ''I grew up with Jordan but I think LeBron is miles better'' under 30 year olds.

It's pretty evident who have nothing else than (few hand picked) stats on the paper to talk about.

[JN61]

LeBron at the PC Board GOAT award ceremony to receive his title

Celebrating his 8 finals losses I see. Or how many it is this time? I already lost the count.

[JN61]

It's not hard to see why. Continuously you ignore the talent of the league today and the teams LeBron faced. The league is way deeper and more talented now. LeBron was facing teams with 3-4 HOFers typically. Combinations Durant-Steph-Klay-Draymond, Duncan-Manu-Parker-Kawhi, Durant-Westbrook-Russ. These teams annihilate the teams MJ faced from a talent standpoint.

Lol all of those teams were in the west. Miami and Cleveland are in the east. What team or teams in the east were better than James/Wade/Bosh and James/Irving/Love between 2010 and 2018?

Lebron was literally beating the Demar Lowry Raptors for like 5 years. Very Strong team

East during those years was basically a make a wish league for LeBron with his 3-4 hall of fame teammates. I've hard time to think less competitive/talented decade in that conference. Maybe late 70s.

[ceiling raiser]

MJ looks pretty solid from the limited RAPM data we have from his Bulls tenure:

https://squared2020.com/1984-85-rapm/
https://squared2020.com/1987-88-nba-rapm/
https://squared2020.com/2021/09/11/1990-1991-nba-rapm/
https://squared2020.com/2022/07/18/1995-1996-nba-rapm/
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1R_VgaKr980LMmReroItR94hzhuexf9wxM4l3cIw0QmY/edit#gid=0

[xchange55]

Jordan effectively played 11 full seasons of competitive basketball. I'm taking out his second year were he was injured for most of it, his return from baseball where again he missed most of the season, and his 2 years with the Wizards - which was coming back 3 years after retiring. He came back as part time owner to try and help develop the players and wasn't even a full time starter.

In 11 years:

* 10 All NBA First Team selections (was Second Team his rookie year)
* 9 NBA Defensive First Team selections
* 5 league MVP's
* 1 DPOY
* 6 Finals Championships (6-0 record)
* 6 Finals MVP
* 10 times scoring average leader (3rd his rookie year)
* 33.4 points/game Playoffs average (#1 all time)

You can cherry pick Lebron's best 11 seasons, it won't even come close to touching the above. You can even add in the 2 Wizards seasons and those 13 yearsa beats Lebron's top 13 seasons. This is simply pure dominance - perhaps in some future generation someone can eclipse it - but for now it can only be done in video games.

Lebron has teamed up with below former All NBA Teamer's - so let's just end the discussion of who had the better supporting casts. You guys are arguing about Toni Kukoc and Ron Harper - which is basically like saying Lebron played with a Big Z. Look how many NBA 75 players Lebron has played with.

* Shaq (past prime)
* Dwayne Wade
* Chris Bosh
* Ray Allen (past prime)
* Kevin Love
* Kyrie Irving
* Chrish Bosh
* Rajon Rondo
* Anthony Davis
* Russel Westbrook (past prime)

Jordan KO'ed each and every HOF'er he faced in the Finals: Stockton, Malone, Magic, Drexler, Barkley, Payton.

LBJ has losing Finals records against GSW and SAS. He lost to Steph and Timmy multiple times and lost Dirk and Kawhi.

And the number 1 data driven argument:

Space Jam starring Michael Jordan grossed $250m unadjusted for inflation in 1996.
Space Jam 2 starring LBJ grossed $164m in 2021.
This is of course not even close adjusted for inflation.

Jordan simply outclasses EVERYONE (not just LBJ).

[Marrrcuss]

The way you all are using team accomplishments to prove this is so damn idiotic, i try to stay away.

Again, anyone that WATCHED Mike and was just in awe, i totally get it. His game was beautiful and still dominant.

BUT, trying to compare what he did against the absolutely defenseless Phoenix Suns of 93 and thinking he would do the same against the Spurs and Pop is so cotdam stupid.

Lastly, can someone tell me again why yall go by All Star and not All NBA? For a board that always looks at stats and data, that also seems rather convenient. (By the way, you dont have to answer, i know exactly why you do it, lol)

[xBulletproof]

Kobe transplanted into today's league wouldn't be nearly as valuable as having a Jokic, who elevates his whole team and averages a triple double.

So, I don't know. For me, Bron does more things well than Mike or Kobe, which would translate better to the game today (which is the highest caliber version of the game that has existed). But the players now were influenced by the giants of the past.

Absolutely incorrect, for Jordan. Jordan would easily be pushing triple doubles all the time. He just wasn't asked to do it in the triangle offense that has no true PG. It's just not how the offense he was in works with Phil Jackson.

However the 24 games or so before Phil Jackson was hired, Jordan played PG at the end of the season. Averaged 31 points, 10.8 assists and 9.5 rebounds per game during that stretch and had an 11 game stretch with 10 triple doubles. It's why that season he finished at 31-8-8. If you drop him in today's NBA and let him play PG? He's going to rack up triple doubles all day with All NBA defense.

Too many people don't know or understand the triangle offense. They just see Jordan 5 apg and think Lebron is a better passer. It's just not really true.