What's the strongest data-driven argument for Michael Jordan as GOAT?

[70sFan]

So, am I officially a biased LeBron fanboy?

[tsherkin]

Very strong Lebron bias is real on PC. Not Kareem bias, not Russell bias, not Jordan bias. So, once great voting panel became full of garbage opinions of fanboys with great old posters here and there (you, Doc, some others). So the results became garbage overall.

I have to wonder if it's actually garbage results or results you simply dislike.

It pays to remember that when people evaluate, they do not use a universal set of criteria, so some stuff which means a lot to one poster may mean little to another. That changes rankings, quite dramatically in some cases. And of course nostalgia/emotional investment is also very real. The impact of growing up with Player A vs B is real.

[eminence]

So, am I officially a biased LeBron fanboy?

Nah, only Dantley

[Gregoire]

So, am I officially a biased LeBron fanboy?

No. One of the few.

[70sFan]

So, am I officially a biased LeBron fanboy?

Nah, only Dantley

Impossible, you have to include Gilmore as well

[70sFan]

So, am I officially a biased LeBron fanboy?

No. One of the few.

Why didn't you participate and destroy them in discussion then? It should be very easy if that's only their wishful thinking. You can still respond to their arguments and invalidate the results of the project. I will be grateful for once, I never liked LeBron.

[tsherkin]

So, am I officially a biased LeBron fanboy?

Nah, only Dantley

Dantley was an exceptional scorer. His major weakness was a general lack of playmaking. xD And even still, he does get underrated...

[Gregoire]

Very strong Lebron bias is real on PC. Not Kareem bias, not Russell bias, not Jordan bias. So, once great voting panel became full of garbage opinions of fanboys with great old posters here and there (you, Doc, some others). So the results became garbage overall.

I have to wonder if it's actually garbage results or results you simply dislike.

It pays to remember that when people evaluate, they do not use a universal set of criteria, so some stuff which means a lot to one poster may mean little to another. That changes rankings, quite dramatically in some cases. And of course nostalgia/emotional investment is also very real. The impact of growing up with Player A vs B is real.

Yes, It's real. But Lebron bias in recent years there is just enormous. Group of biansed posters could just shift all panel. This group are wide, I can name it but don't want to mention personally, but still. It's not even recency bias, because it's only PC board thing.

[Gregoire]

So, am I officially a biased LeBron fanboy?

No. One of the few.

Why didn't you participate and destroy them in discussion then? It should be very easy if that's only their wishful thinking. You can still respond to their arguments and invalidate the results of the project. I will be grateful for once, I never liked LeBron.

How my 1 vote invalidates 20 votes by fanboys? Even if they arguments are nothing. BTW lessthsnshake ( maybe I have mistake in name) destroyed them pretty badly.

[70sFan]

No. One of the few.

Why didn't you participate and destroy them in discussion then? It should be very easy if that's only their wishful thinking. You can still respond to their arguments and invalidate the results of the project. I will be grateful for once, I never liked LeBron.

How my 1 vote invalidates 20 votes by fanboys? Even if they arguments are nothing. BTW lessthsnshake ( maybe I have mistake in name) destroyed them pretty badly.

I mean, show the examples of their horrible arguments. Provide quotes from the poster that "destroyed" them.

[Gregoire]

Why didn't you participate and destroy them in discussion then? It should be very easy if that's only their wishful thinking. You can still respond to their arguments and invalidate the results of the project. I will be grateful for once, I never liked LeBron.

How my 1 vote invalidates 20 votes by fanboys? Even if they arguments are nothing. BTW lessthsnshake ( maybe I have mistake in name) destroyed them pretty badly.

I mean, show the examples of their horrible arguments. Provide quotes from the poster that "destroyed" them.

So I need just to copy and past all the thread aside of few unbiased posters? Ok, then I have few hours...

[KembaWalker]

The PC board acts like they are some higher level form of thinkers that have considerations beyond the normie MJ stan vs LeBron stan debates... yet it looks just its just following the yearly tradition of all their ranking projects. As soon as LBJ and MJ are out, the interest in the project declines exponentially. MJ is out, and the threads are already a third of the size as #1. By the time they get to 20 it'll be 5 people reposting the same stuff they do every year. Meanwhile the 2024 LeBron fan HQ thread swells up to part 50 page 94 discussing Max Christie and Austin Reaves.

In all honesty, I don't get why they don't just make a LeBron specific subforum as it would outperform most of the subforums on this website, even most of the team boards. It makes it very confusing to go to places called "Player Comparisons" to get run out of town by a player fan group that has holed up there when you could just give them a place that is more fitting for what they are doing there. It makes more sense anyway as basketball has such a huge group of specific player fans moreso than team fans. Everyone would benefit

[70sFan]

How my 1 vote invalidates 20 votes by fanboys? Even if they arguments are nothing. BTW lessthsnshake ( maybe I have mistake in name) destroyed them pretty badly.

I mean, show the examples of their horrible arguments. Provide quotes from the poster that "destroyed" them.

So I need just to copy and past all the thread aside of few unbiased posters? Ok, then I have few hours...

Yeah, do it and provide the reasons why you think these posts are biased and unreasonable.

[70sFan]

The PC board acts like they are some higher level form of thinkers that have considerations beyond the normie MJ stan vs LeBron stan debates... yet it looks just its just following the yearly tradition of all their ranking projects. As soon as LBJ and MJ are out, the interest in the project declines exponentially. MJ is out, and the threads are already a third of the size as #1.

Yeah, there are posters who only come into the project to make it sure their man wins the number 1 spot, but it's not "yearly tradition". Last time, the second thread was the shortest out of top 10 and the one when Magic Johnson went in was way longer than the top 3 threads.

It's very easy to cry about results, but it should be very easy to provide arguments why you think this project is useless. I think you didn't even read the discussion, because the biggest value this project provides isn't a list, but an overall growth of the community knowledge by long discussion.

[Gregoire]

The PC board acts like they are some higher level form of thinkers that have considerations beyond the normie MJ stan vs LeBron stan debates... yet it looks just its just following the yearly tradition of all their ranking projects. As soon as LBJ and MJ are out, the interest in the project declines exponentially. MJ is out, and the threads are already a third of the size as #1. By the time they get to 20 it'll be 5 people reposting the same stuff they do every year. Meanwhile the 2024 LeBron fan HQ thread swells up to part 50 page 94 discussing Max Christie and Austin Reaves.

In all honesty, I don't get why they don't just make a LeBron specific subforum as it would outperform most of the subforums on this website, even most of the team boards. It makes it very confusing to go to places called "Player Comparisons" to get run out of town by a player fan group that has holed up there when you could just give them a place that is more fitting for what they are doing there. It makes more sense anyway as basketball has such a huge group of specific player fans moreso than team fans. Everyone would benefit

Exactly this. And Lebron bias obviously lies with MJ hate. So, then they "downed" MJ to 3rd place, mission became complete and project evaporated quickly...

[KembaWalker]

The PC board acts like they are some higher level form of thinkers that have considerations beyond the normie MJ stan vs LeBron stan debates... yet it looks just its just following the yearly tradition of all their ranking projects. As soon as LBJ and MJ are out, the interest in the project declines exponentially. MJ is out, and the threads are already a third of the size as #1.

Yeah, there are posters who only come into the project to make it sure their man wins the number 1 spot, but it's not "yearly tradition". Last time, the second thread was the shortest out of top 10 and the one when Magic Johnson went in was way longer than the top 3 threads.

It's very easy to cry about results, but it should be very easy to provide arguments why you think this project is useless. I think you didn't even read the discussion, because the biggest value this project provides isn't a list, but an overall growth of the community knowledge by long discussion.

its simple, when 90% of the board traffic is for 1 ongoing fan thread for a specific player, its not going to be an objective community. Just like if you put up a ranking thread in the Lakers board versus Celtics board, you're going to get biased results.

You can go to almost any thread in PC board that makes it over 2 pages and CTRL+F and you'll find LeBron in there somewhere. It could be a thread about like, Damian Lillard vs Rajon Rondo or George Mikan vs Victor Wembanyama or whatever, literally anything. If it gets any kind of traction there will be someone fitting in some reason to talk about LeBron.

[rk2023]

The PC board acts like they are some higher level form of thinkers that have considerations beyond the normie MJ stan vs LeBron stan debates... yet it looks just its just following the yearly tradition of all their ranking projects. As soon as LBJ and MJ are out, the interest in the project declines exponentially. MJ is out, and the threads are already a third of the size as #1. By the time they get to 20 it'll be 5 people reposting the same stuff they do every year. Meanwhile the 2024 LeBron fan HQ thread swells up to part 50 page 94 discussing Max Christie and Austin Reaves.

In all honesty, I don't get why they don't just make a LeBron specific subforum as it would outperform most of the subforums on this website, even most of the team boards. It makes it very confusing to go to places called "Player Comparisons" to get run out of town by a player fan group that has holed up there when you could just give them a place that is more fitting for what they are doing there. It makes more sense anyway as basketball has such a huge group of specific player fans moreso than team fans. Everyone would benefit

Exactly this. And Lebron bias obviously lies with MJ hate. So, then they "downed" MJ to 3rd place, mission became complete and project evaporated quickly...

The discussion between Russell and Tim Duncan for 4th place is going pretty well right now, unsure who or where the “quick evaporation” is coming from. The only one coming up with fantasies about the PC board, posters, and so on seems to be you.

[Gregoire]

The PC board acts like they are some higher level form of thinkers that have considerations beyond the normie MJ stan vs LeBron stan debates... yet it looks just its just following the yearly tradition of all their ranking projects. As soon as LBJ and MJ are out, the interest in the project declines exponentially. MJ is out, and the threads are already a third of the size as #1.

Yeah, there are posters who only come into the project to make it sure their man wins the number 1 spot, but it's not "yearly tradition". Last time, the second thread was the shortest out of top 10 and the one when Magic Johnson went in was way longer than the top 3 threads.

It's very easy to cry about results, but it should be very easy to provide arguments why you think this project is useless. I think you didn't even read the discussion, because the biggest value this project provides isn't a list, but an overall growth of the community knowledge by long discussion.

its simple, when 90% of the board traffic is for 1 ongoing fan thread for a specific player, its not going to be an objective community. Just like if you put up a ranking thread in the Lakers board versus Celtics board, you're going to get biased results.

You can go to almost any thread in PC board that makes it over 2 pages and CTRL+F and you'll find LeBron in there somewhere. It could be a thread about like, Damian Lillard vs Rajon Rondo or George Mikan vs Victor Wembanyama or whatever, literally anything. If it gets any kind of traction there will be someone fitting in some reason to talk about LeBron.

This quote bout PC is very exact, I can't tell better.

"The same board that has threads going hundreds of pages about LeBron each year even when he is missing the playoffs? It's the LeBron board. No one who knows what is going on takes it seriously. Any real discussion around here takes place on the General Board

+1 to everything about the PC board. What a fall from grace. That was - by far - my favorite board for years. There are still some great posters there, but man, the current top 100 discussion is a tough read. A bunch of dudes working backwards from "I want LeBron to be the best" and patting themselves on thr back once they've found some path they can argue in bad faith. Talking about how the conversation around LeBron vs. Jordan has shifted because some thread made up of mostly posters from the dedicated LeBron thread favors LeBron. Zero self-awareness.

There are definitely some solid arguments on the LeBron side but that thread is mostly going with "LeBron looks great with these metrics, we don't have them for MJ, and since he's my favorite player, LeBron must have been better".."

[twyzted]

1. Def has become lebron leaning now and it’s a few posters that are die hard fans, but also a bunch of people on here throw out pretty useless data because for a lot of people here don’t know what the individual data means or doesn’t mean. Stuff like PER and BPM and esp old BPM are completely dead, as are things like winshares which probably favor bron. Def a few users that are anti Jordan though

2. You talk a ton of **** for someone that was kissing our ass though

This is you btw, and I know from other users you sent this same copy and pasted message to multiple people

Message sent in 2018…
And why do bbref have these stats up if they are dead? Because it doesnt paint Lebron as the goat?

Seems like ALOT of stats that dont paint Lebron as outright goat are not good enough. Kinda hilarious tbh.

And i do not understand
Jordan>lebron winning.
Jordan>lebron every adv metric not longevity dependant.
Jordan>lebron accolades.
Basicly jordan>lebron in everything not longevity based or assists(not a big gap either)
Lebron>Jordan in some patreon stat=Lebron GOAT!

Ps kinda lame to post pms

This dude has gone on a few rants about posters and called me out specifically without tagging me lmao I do not even remotely care if I’m posting PMs when it is a bit that spam sent that to every poster and now just posts “wow I hate the PC board” when bro types like a failed prototype of chatgpt

You’re implying that I’m part of the project that had Lebron above Jordan and I’m not lol.

Imo, the issue is that Data driven arguments don’t exist to support jordan because of a lack of data in the first place, it’s a bit of a dumb premise and at very best you have people looking at the drop off when jordan wasn’t there in 1994 and 1995 which I don’t personally agree with having much weight

The issue is a bunch of users throw out data like PER which is just gonna be a box score composite, that’s fine but it’s about as meaningful as looking at a full box score and deciding which one is better or not. Box score composite numbers aren’t all that useful especially if you are comparing across eras

Anyways, are people are putting in career average numbers? I don’t need to explain why that’s stupid right lol.

Im not saying the PC board isn’t biased and I don’t like the patreon stat they’re using either (if ur talking about the thinking basketball one). Im saying, data wise most of the data being cited like PER/BPM/VORP/WSp48 (which dont all favor jordan obviously it’s closer esp taking into context), are genuinely garbage stats nowadays. We don’t have better data available for the 90s, which is kind of the point, but using bad data and saying “oh by we have this” is dumb too.


It’s not that the data for jordan is bad if it supports him, I think most of the data people are using in general is bad for either side of argument, a comparison of data in a time that was pre PBP data available isn’t really all too comparable.

Whenever ur comparing pre play by play people to post play by play data it revolves more around trying to figure out how good those players were individually and then comparing them, trying to find that special metric to compare them is pretty useless because the data available is pretty bad. It’s not hard to use bad data to argue either side, I don’t see the point to do that, you can evaluate how good a player is without needing to hover to the advanced section on bbref

I absolutely do think a there are people on the PC board guilty of that as well there’s a poster that thinks cp3 is better than Kobe all time lmao

Ok i didnt know you guys had a beef.

I just know that there is a guy from pc board who comes here and in his essays are mentions of some stats probably from thinking basketball, he never posts the data even after being asked multible times.
Mayby ws/48 and such are “garbage”.
But we dont have this advanced data for Jordan, but imo that doesnt really matter.

What we know is:
Jordan won more mvps, fmvps and dpoy.
He won more titles more then any other GOAT candidate not named bill russell.
All publicly available advanced metrics are better then Lebrons, not in everything but overall he ranks better.
I dont know how these other metrics bridges the gap Jordan has?

In all other sports the Greatest of all time is the one who has the best combination of:
Stats.
Winning.
Accolades.

Mayby wayne gretzky is anomaly in that he isnt on the top in stanley cups won but he has by far the best stats.

[twyzted]

I mean, show the examples of their horrible arguments. Provide quotes from the poster that "destroyed" them.

So I need just to copy and past all the thread aside of few unbiased posters? Ok, then I have few hours...

Yeah, do it and provide the reasons why you think these posts are biased and unreasonable.

Look at the first thread of the top 100. First page.
1 guy voted for Jordan instantly gets attacked, why would anyone spend time trying to participate in these if he gets attacked for his vote?