Miami Heat Offseason Thread 8.0 - 47 cRonin and the inevitable seppuku

[Tim_Hardawayy]

The reality of the NBA (and its really always been this way) is everyone who isn't a bona fide superstar or on some sort of rookie deal, vet min, or MLE contract (even MLE isn't always the case) is considered overpaid to some degree. And its not entirely wrong, because the way the cap is structured, true max players are actually worth arguably 2-3x what they get paid as far as their value to a team.

If max players were actually able to be paid their true value, what would probably happen is the average player salary would fall dramatically, but guys like Jokic and Giannis would be getting 100 million plus a year.

[Kobewade11]

So what’s Watchout Twitter or IG?

Gregsylvander

[DusterBuster]

Offers will get worse and worse with every passing day. They botched the handling of his trade request. It was in their best interest to make a quick move instead of delaying it.

For offers to get worse, other teams need to be making offers… which they aren’t thanks to Dame’s agent.

I'm happy to hear your perspective. What type of offers (players/picks) are Blazers fans hoping for? What team would you love to make a deal with?

Considering Dame's contract and his desire to play for a contender...it seems there are only 4-5 teams in the running at most.

I think Jaquez Jr is holdout worthy if he’s not being offered yet. I know he can’t be traded til August, but he can be negotiated in a deal that’s completed then. Then I think at least 4 picks back (full picks, not swaps).

The deal I really like is what Bill Simmons mentioned on his pod, a three team deal with Mia/Por/Bkn:

Dame and Nurkic to Miami
Herro and Lowry to Brooklyn
Simmons, Jovic, Jaquez, Finney-Smith (or O’Neal, whatever salary filler from Nets) and picks (2 or 3 from Miami, 1 or 2 from Nets)

Something along those lines.

If Dame would consider the Nets, I would actually sooner just deal Dame to Brooklyn. I like their assets better. I would also move Dame to Utah for some of their assets if Ainge would be interested… Dame has a huge following in Utah because of Ogden. I also don’t hate the idea of Dame straight up for KAT to Minnesota, but Dame to the Wolves is definitely a nonstarter.

Another reason for the Blazers to wait, if the Heat aren’t starting the season with Dame, they could have a similar start to the year they did last season… which is roughly a .500 year. That improves their pick position for 2024 by only giving them Dame for half the season. So another reason for Portland to wait.

[Tim_Hardawayy]

May as well just keep Dame for the next four seasons while you are it....the offers aren't going to get any better.

Offers will get worse and worse with every passing day. They botched the handling of his trade request. It was in their best interest to make a quick move instead of delaying it.

For offers to get worse, other teams need to be making offers… which they aren’t thanks to Dame’s agent.

Even Miami's offer will get worse if they wait long enough. This gets stretched out over the next couple of seasons and with enough (bad) injury luck, Lillard actually becomes negative value. That's the part of this that isn't getting enough play really, he is right about the age where quick guards begin to fall off a cliff in productivity, this isn't a 28 year old in his prime superstar.

I'm not suggesting that giving in is necessarily the winning move for Portland, but nobody's position really improves if all parties just sit on their hands. Of course there is a possibility that Riley is being ruthless and only giving terrible offers right now, we don't know.

[MorbidHEAT]

For offers to get worse, other teams need to be making offers… which they aren’t thanks to Dame’s agent.

I'm happy to hear your perspective. What type of offers (players/picks) are Blazers fans hoping for? What team would you love to make a deal with?

Considering Dame's contract and his desire to play for a contender...it seems there are only 4-5 teams in the running at most.

I think Jaquez Jr is holdout worthy if he’s not being offered yet. I know he can’t be traded til August, but he can be negotiated in a deal that’s completed then. Then I think at least 4 picks back (full picks, not swaps).

The deal I really like is what Bill Simmons mentioned on his pod, a three team deal with Mia/Por/Bkn:

Dame and Nurkic to Miami
Herro and Lowry to Brooklyn
Simmons, Jovic, Jaquez, Finney-Smith (or O’Neal, whatever salary filler from Nets) and picks (2 or 3 from Miami, 1 or 2 from Nets)

Something along those lines.

If Dame would consider the Nets, I would actually sooner just deal Dame to Brooklyn. I like their assets better. I would also move Dame to Utah for some of their assets if Ainge would be interested… Dame has a huge following in Utah because of Ogden. I also don’t hate the idea of Dame straight up for KAT to Minnesota, but Dame to the Wolves is definitely a nonstarter.

Another reason for the Blazers to wait, if the Heat aren’t starting the season with Dame, they could have a similar start to the year they did last season… which is roughly a .500 year. That improves their pick position for 2024 by only giving them Dame for half the season. So another reason for Portland to wait.

I would be ok with that trade, but I would exchange Jovic or JJ for Martin. In an ideal world, I would love to keep them both, but if I absolutely had to choose I would keep Jovic.

[Tim_Hardawayy]

Another reason for the Blazers to wait, if the Heat aren’t starting the season with Dame, they could have a similar start to the year they did last season… which is roughly a .500 year. That improves their pick position for 2024 by only giving them Dame for half the season. So another reason for Portland to wait.

Again the flaw in this reasoning is assuming Dame's value stays static or even possibly increases with time, when its the opposite, he only gets older, and if Miami is having a rough season, there is a chance Riley is less inclined himself to give up a bunch of pieces. At that point, if you're Portland you pretty much just have to pray Dame continues to stay healthy and opens up his options for trade destinations. Or changes his mind and accepts a role as a vet on a rebuild, which isn't even necessarily the best outcome if it means having given up picks and other potential assets for a deal that was turned down.

Not arguing what Portland should or shouldn't do because we don't know the offers on the table, but nobody wins if all parties are stuck in limbo.

[DusterBuster]

I'm happy to hear your perspective. What type of offers (players/picks) are Blazers fans hoping for? What team would you love to make a deal with?

Considering Dame's contract and his desire to play for a contender...it seems there are only 4-5 teams in the running at most.

I think Jaquez Jr is holdout worthy if he’s not being offered yet. I know he can’t be traded til August, but he can be negotiated in a deal that’s completed then. Then I think at least 4 picks back (full picks, not swaps).

The deal I really like is what Bill Simmons mentioned on his pod, a three team deal with Mia/Por/Bkn:

Dame and Nurkic to Miami
Herro and Lowry to Brooklyn
Simmons, Jovic, Jaquez, Finney-Smith (or O’Neal, whatever salary filler from Nets) and picks (2 or 3 from Miami, 1 or 2 from Nets)

Something along those lines.

If Dame would consider the Nets, I would actually sooner just deal Dame to Brooklyn. I like their assets better. I would also move Dame to Utah for some of their assets if Ainge would be interested… Dame has a huge following in Utah because of Ogden. I also don’t hate the idea of Dame straight up for KAT to Minnesota, but Dame to the Wolves is definitely a nonstarter.

Another reason for the Blazers to wait, if the Heat aren’t starting the season with Dame, they could have a similar start to the year they did last season… which is roughly a .500 year. That improves their pick position for 2024 by only giving them Dame for half the season. So another reason for Portland to wait.

I would be ok with that trade, but I would exchange Jovic or JJ for Martin. In an ideal world, I would love to keep them both, but if I absolutely had to choose I would keep Jovic.

Portland doesn’t need Martin. They need big man depth and prospects, Jovic I would think would be a must.

[DusterBuster]

Another reason for the Blazers to wait, if the Heat aren’t starting the season with Dame, they could have a similar start to the year they did last season… which is roughly a .500 year. That improves their pick position for 2024 by only giving them Dame for half the season. So another reason for Portland to wait.

Again the flaw in this reasoning is assuming Dame's value stays static or even possibly increases with time, when its the opposite, he only gets older, and if Miami is having a rough season, there is a chance Riley is less inclined himself to give up a bunch of pieces. At that point, if you're Portland you pretty much just have to pray Dame continues to stay healthy and opens up his options for trade destinations. Or changes his mind and accepts a role as a vet on a rebuild, which isn't even necessarily the best outcome if it means having given up picks and other potential assets for a deal that was turned down.

Not arguing what Portland should or shouldn't do because we don't know the offers on the table, but nobody wins if all parties are stuck in limbo.

The flawed logic of your premise is that Dame and his agent have already made his value low by tainting the market. Ok… so the value maybe gets worse… so what? If it’s already 50c on the dollar, who cares if it drops to 40?

The reality is, waiting always helps the team trading the star. Everyone KILLED Morey for this position (myself included) when he was dealing with the Ben Simmons situation, but in the end he was right. Now I’m not saying that will work that exact way where the Blazers get back a Harden player, but the team that has the least to lose by waiting is always the team trading the player.

Again, I know why you all want to believe your theory, but it is wrong if you ask any impartial party.

[Flash4thewin]

I think Jaquez Jr is holdout worthy if he’s not being offered yet. I know he can’t be traded til August, but he can be negotiated in a deal that’s completed then. Then I think at least 4 picks back (full picks, not swaps).

The deal I really like is what Bill Simmons mentioned on his pod, a three team deal with Mia/Por/Bkn:

Dame and Nurkic to Miami
Herro and Lowry to Brooklyn
Simmons, Jovic, Jaquez, Finney-Smith (or O’Neal, whatever salary filler from Nets) and picks (2 or 3 from Miami, 1 or 2 from Nets)

Something along those lines.

If Dame would consider the Nets, I would actually sooner just deal Dame to Brooklyn. I like their assets better. I would also move Dame to Utah for some of their assets if Ainge would be interested… Dame has a huge following in Utah because of Ogden. I also don’t hate the idea of Dame straight up for KAT to Minnesota, but Dame to the Wolves is definitely a nonstarter.

Another reason for the Blazers to wait, if the Heat aren’t starting the season with Dame, they could have a similar start to the year they did last season… which is roughly a .500 year. That improves their pick position for 2024 by only giving them Dame for half the season. So another reason for Portland to wait.

I would be ok with that trade, but I would exchange Jovic or JJ for Martin. In an ideal world, I would love to keep them both, but if I absolutely had to choose I would keep Jovic.

Portland doesn’t need Martin. They need big man depth and prospects, Jovic I would think would be a must.

First of all thanks for coming here and just chatting with everyone, we are not all monsters and some of us are hilarious. This forum has some golden meme posts at times.

Im wondering what's the perspective from Portland that Dame will actually sit out games? I feel like it's pure bs coming from his agent but I would like to know your take.

[Tim_Hardawayy]

Another reason for the Blazers to wait, if the Heat aren’t starting the season with Dame, they could have a similar start to the year they did last season… which is roughly a .500 year. That improves their pick position for 2024 by only giving them Dame for half the season. So another reason for Portland to wait.

Again the flaw in this reasoning is assuming Dame's value stays static or even possibly increases with time, when its the opposite, he only gets older, and if Miami is having a rough season, there is a chance Riley is less inclined himself to give up a bunch of pieces. At that point, if you're Portland you pretty much just have to pray Dame continues to stay healthy and opens up his options for trade destinations. Or changes his mind and accepts a role as a vet on a rebuild, which isn't even necessarily the best outcome if it means having given up picks and other potential assets for a deal that was turned down.

Not arguing what Portland should or shouldn't do because we don't know the offers on the table, but nobody wins if all parties are stuck in limbo.

The flawed logic of your premise is that Dame and his agent have already made his value low by tainting the market. Ok… so the value maybe gets worse… so what? If it’s already 50c on the dollar, who cares if it drops to 40?

The reality is, waiting always helps the team trading the star. Everyone KILLED Morey for this position (myself included) when he was dealing with the Ben Simmons situation, but in the end he was right. Now I’m not saying that will work that exact way where the Blazers get back a Harden player, but the team that has the least to lose by waiting is always the team trading the player.

Again, I know why you all want to believe your theory, but it is wrong if you ask any impartial party.

I disagree and you’re basing your own premise on a fluke one off situation. Also Simmons as flawed as he is, is young and in his prime. Lillards value drops every single day purely based on the passage of time, because unfortunately most of the league doesn’t age like LeBron (ped’s or not).

[DiegoChara]

To Cronin’s credit (so far), he seems to be taking a page out of Morey’s playbook. Time is the Blazers only leverage play here and he is under contract. If Lillard’s agent has poisoned the well so badly for a trade where the only offer out there is a bad trade… well that’s going to be there anytime the Blazers want it. The Blazers have no grand plans of contending next season, so Dame sitting out until a trade doesn’t hurt them one bit, just will cost Dame money.

I also still fully don’t believe Dame will sit out like Simmons. I suspect if it goes to where Dame is still on the Blazers during camp, the sides will come together and “make up” so he will play in Portland. I suspect it’ll be closer too a Durant (Brooklyn) or Harden (Houston) situation than it would be Ben Simmons.

May as well just keep Dame for the next four seasons while you are it....the offers aren't going to get any better.

Offers will get worse and worse with every passing day. They botched the handling of his trade request. It was in their best interest to make a quick move instead of delaying it. The second they knew they were going to use the number 3, they should have traded him.

Do you actually believe Miami will offer less a week from today than whatever offer is on the table right now?
That seems completely implausible.

[HEATVols865]

So what’s Watchout Twitter or IG?

Gregsylvander

No way. Greg was Leif on here, not Watchout.

[Tim_Hardawayy]

May as well just keep Dame for the next four seasons while you are it....the offers aren't going to get any better.

Offers will get worse and worse with every passing day. They botched the handling of his trade request. It was in their best interest to make a quick move instead of delaying it. The second they knew they were going to use the number 3, they should have traded him.

Do you actually believe Miami will offer less a week from today than whatever offer is on the table right now?
That seems completely implausible.

Yes lol? If they already made a good faith offer anyways. I’m not saying the deal gets done, but I suspect if/when it does people are going to feign outrage over how little Portland gets.

Again though we aren’t privy to offers, I concede its possible Riley is being an **** and only offering the pupu platter, in which case sure, maybe he comes up from there if that’s what’s actually happening.

[DusterBuster]

Again the flaw in this reasoning is assuming Dame's value stays static or even possibly increases with time, when its the opposite, he only gets older, and if Miami is having a rough season, there is a chance Riley is less inclined himself to give up a bunch of pieces. At that point, if you're Portland you pretty much just have to pray Dame continues to stay healthy and opens up his options for trade destinations. Or changes his mind and accepts a role as a vet on a rebuild, which isn't even necessarily the best outcome if it means having given up picks and other potential assets for a deal that was turned down.

Not arguing what Portland should or shouldn't do because we don't know the offers on the table, but nobody wins if all parties are stuck in limbo.

The flawed logic of your premise is that Dame and his agent have already made his value low by tainting the market. Ok… so the value maybe gets worse… so what? If it’s already 50c on the dollar, who cares if it drops to 40?

The reality is, waiting always helps the team trading the star. Everyone KILLED Morey for this position (myself included) when he was dealing with the Ben Simmons situation, but in the end he was right. Now I’m not saying that will work that exact way where the Blazers get back a Harden player, but the team that has the least to lose by waiting is always the team trading the player.

Again, I know why you all want to believe your theory, but it is wrong if you ask any impartial party.

I disagree and you’re basing your own premise on a fluke one off situation. Also Simmons as flawed as he is, is young and in his prime. Lillards value drops every single day purely based on the passage of time, because unfortunately most of the league doesn’t age like LeBron (ped’s or not).

And you're basing your premise on... nothing. There's literally nothing to prove that his value drops "every single day" lol. That's a ludicrous statement.

I'm not going to bother arguing this with you, you have your very clear agenda which you're welcome to, especially on your board.

At this point, I'm relatively checked out. I'm not overly invested in what the Blazers get for Dame. If you're correct and Dame's value goes lower by waiting... oh well. They have their rebuilding core already set, so it's not like what the Blazer get back for Dame is so monumentally important as it needs to be the backbone of a rebuilding effort. At this point, whatever comes back from Dame is just supplementing their rebuild, not seeding it.

[marson]

We would definitely be the losers here if we don't wrap this deal up by training camp.

We need Dame/Butler/Bam cohesion to be developed throughout the year.

[wadenation305]

For offers to get worse, other teams need to be making offers… which they aren’t thanks to Dame’s agent.

I'm happy to hear your perspective. What type of offers (players/picks) are Blazers fans hoping for? What team would you love to make a deal with?

Considering Dame's contract and his desire to play for a contender...it seems there are only 4-5 teams in the running at most.

I think Jaquez Jr is holdout worthy if he’s not being offered yet. I know he can’t be traded til August, but he can be negotiated in a deal that’s completed then. Then I think at least 4 picks back (full picks, not swaps).

The deal I really like is what Bill Simmons mentioned on his pod, a three team deal with Mia/Por/Bkn:

Dame and Nurkic to Miami
Herro and Lowry to Brooklyn
Simmons, Jovic, Jaquez, Finney-Smith (or O’Neal, whatever salary filler from Nets) and picks (2 or 3 from Miami, 1 or 2 from Nets)

Something along those lines.

If Dame would consider the Nets, I would actually sooner just deal Dame to Brooklyn. I like their assets better. I would also move Dame to Utah for some of their assets if Ainge would be interested… Dame has a huge following in Utah because of Ogden. I also don’t hate the idea of Dame straight up for KAT to Minnesota, but Dame to the Wolves is definitely a nonstarter.

Another reason for the Blazers to wait, if the Heat aren’t starting the season with Dame, they could have a similar start to the year they did last season… which is roughly a .500 year. That improves their pick position for 2024 by only giving them Dame for half the season. So another reason for Portland to wait.

So you want almost 1/3 of an NBA team's worth of young players with high upside. 4 Picks all unprotected. For 33-year-old Dame and the privilege of paying him 60+Mil/season on half of his remaining contract (the worst of it). Hey man I love Ganja and it looks like you have some really good stuff, don't be greedy and pass it over. We can talk about what a realistic trade for Dame would look like over a doobie.

**EDIT**
I almost forgot you also want to get off the Nurkic contract as well as everything else. LOL it gets funnier.

[DusterBuster]

I'm happy to hear your perspective. What type of offers (players/picks) are Blazers fans hoping for? What team would you love to make a deal with?

Considering Dame's contract and his desire to play for a contender...it seems there are only 4-5 teams in the running at most.

I think Jaquez Jr is holdout worthy if he’s not being offered yet. I know he can’t be traded til August, but he can be negotiated in a deal that’s completed then. Then I think at least 4 picks back (full picks, not swaps).

The deal I really like is what Bill Simmons mentioned on his pod, a three team deal with Mia/Por/Bkn:

Dame and Nurkic to Miami
Herro and Lowry to Brooklyn
Simmons, Jovic, Jaquez, Finney-Smith (or O’Neal, whatever salary filler from Nets) and picks (2 or 3 from Miami, 1 or 2 from Nets)

Something along those lines.

If Dame would consider the Nets, I would actually sooner just deal Dame to Brooklyn. I like their assets better. I would also move Dame to Utah for some of their assets if Ainge would be interested… Dame has a huge following in Utah because of Ogden. I also don’t hate the idea of Dame straight up for KAT to Minnesota, but Dame to the Wolves is definitely a nonstarter.

Another reason for the Blazers to wait, if the Heat aren’t starting the season with Dame, they could have a similar start to the year they did last season… which is roughly a .500 year. That improves their pick position for 2024 by only giving them Dame for half the season. So another reason for Portland to wait.

So you want almost 1/3 of an NBA team's worth of young players with high upside. 4 Picks all unprotected. For 33-year-old Dame and the privilege of paying him 60+Mil/season on half of his remaining contract (the worst of it). Hey man I love Ganja and it looks like you have some really good stuff, don't be greedy and pass it over. We can talk about what a realistic trade for Dame would look like over a doobie.

For a top 10 player that the team who wants him believes will put them over the top? Yes, yes I do.

[MorbidHEAT]

May as well just keep Dame for the next four seasons while you are it....the offers aren't going to get any better.

Offers will get worse and worse with every passing day. They botched the handling of his trade request. It was in their best interest to make a quick move instead of delaying it. The second they knew they were going to use the number 3, they should have traded him.

Do you actually believe Miami will offer less a week from today than whatever offer is on the table right now?
That seems completely implausible.

Not in a week, but what if the Blazers hold on to him until the trade deadline and in that time Herro averages 28 points and 7 assist and Jovic averages 25 points and 11 rebounds? Now we no longer necessarily have to add Jovic to the trade, making the offer worse for the Blazers. Not saying thats possible or even likely, but its not implausible for the next offer to be worse if it takes much more time.

[DiegoChara]

Offers will get worse and worse with every passing day. They botched the handling of his trade request. It was in their best interest to make a quick move instead of delaying it. The second they knew they were going to use the number 3, they should have traded him.

Do you actually believe Miami will offer less a week from today than whatever offer is on the table right now?
That seems completely implausible.

Yes lol? If they already made a good faith offer anyways. I’m not saying the deal gets done, but I suspect if/when it does people are going to feign outrage over how little Portland gets.

Again though we aren’t privy to offers, I concede its possible Riley is being an **** and only offering the pupu platter, in which case sure, maybe he comes up from there if that’s what’s actually happening.

As you said, we can’t know for sure what’s been offered, but reporting does seem to imply it’s not like Miami has made their “best” offer. They made an offer based on not having competing offers to beat.

Given that, I think it’s possible Miami might hold firm. I find it completely nuts to think they’d lower the offer anytime before the off-season ends. I mean, they do actually want Lillard presumably?

[Tim_Hardawayy]

The flawed logic of your premise is that Dame and his agent have already made his value low by tainting the market. Ok… so the value maybe gets worse… so what? If it’s already 50c on the dollar, who cares if it drops to 40?

The reality is, waiting always helps the team trading the star. Everyone KILLED Morey for this position (myself included) when he was dealing with the Ben Simmons situation, but in the end he was right. Now I’m not saying that will work that exact way where the Blazers get back a Harden player, but the team that has the least to lose by waiting is always the team trading the player.

Again, I know why you all want to believe your theory, but it is wrong if you ask any impartial party.

I disagree and you’re basing your own premise on a fluke one off situation. Also Simmons as flawed as he is, is young and in his prime. Lillards value drops every single day purely based on the passage of time, because unfortunately most of the league doesn’t age like LeBron (ped’s or not).

And you're basing your premise on... nothing. There's literally nothing to prove that his value drops "every single day" lol. That's a ludicrous statement.

I'm not going to bother arguing this with you, you have your very clear agenda which you're welcome to, especially on your board.

At this point, I'm relatively checked out. I'm not overly invested in what the Blazers get for Dame. If you're correct and Dame's value goes lower by waiting... oh well. They have their rebuilding core already set, so it's not like what the Blazer get back for Dame is so monumentally important as it needs to be the backbone of a rebuilding effort. At this point, whatever comes back from Dame is just supplementing their rebuild, not seeding it.

I have voiced my opinion plenty on the general board, I think what Dame is doing is garbage and long term the league needs to do something about this behavior. That being said, if I had to actually bet my own money on Portland eventually getting a crappy offer vs a really good deal, I’d be all in on the crap offer, just because the team loses in these situations more often than not in the NBA. That’s not me praying for it to happen, its what I actually think will happen. I’m not even as thrilled as some are at the prospect of getting Lillard because he really only gets you a 1-2 year window, and then there’s a high likelihood his salary starts to look about as palatable as Chris Paul.

I’m sorry I don’t share your outlook, but I assure you its not out of some hope to swindle Portland, just being a realist, the NBA is way too soft with how it handles players who pull **** like this.