2023-24 Season Discussion and Speculation - Free Agency Begins

[sunskerr]

Heat didn’t have a traditional pg and went to the final this year. I mean they had Lowry but he’s 35+ yo not the prime 19 finals Lowry. Suns should be fine even if we don’t land another pg since Booker, Beal, KD, Lee can all contribute in that area.

Murray isn't a traditional point guard Joker ran point 80 percent of the time, very few teams have a traditional pg anymore.

Can't really use Jokic/Nuggets as an example because Jokic is a better PG than 99% of the league. Agreed you don't need a traditional PG but having a guy who can handle the ball confidently, shoot 3's and defend off the bench and look good stepping into the starting line up when required is still something highly sought after. Not saying Cam shouldn't have been traded but just the idea of relying on Gordon and a very young and inexperienced Goodwin could be a problem. If Book or Beal or Gordon gets injured, it's next man up and Goodwin will be playing real minutes with no other guard off the bench outside of Saben Lee who I have even less confidence in.

The roster isn't done yet so we'll see what else we come up with but salary dumping a player who's been in the rotation for the past 3-4 seasons is something that we'll feel if we don't patch up that gap.

I'm almost certain a follow up is coming. Before going into free agency I said we had 3 guys worth bringing back, and that was Okogie (got him), Landale (QO tendered but pulled), and Payne.

These 3 were the best EPM guys we had on the bench with the best DARKO projections. As frustrating as Payne was, and while he wasn't quite as good as Okogie/Landale, he was a clear cut above the rest of the bench.

Coupled with our apparent interest in TMac, this makes me think there is something in the works. Or at least they're trying to get something done.

But it also sounds like we like Goodwin a lot already, and that's cool too. It's a little confusing in that, hey if we like Goodwin, why can't Payne just be 3rd string point. You could do way worse.

But also Payne is somebody who will probably be out of the league once that speed loses a step and he's 29 already.

[lilfishi22]

Trevor Bukstein has been the CBA expert in the front office for a while now. I’d be willing to bet he’s been the mind behind some of these more creative deals and he’ll be able to navigate the 2nd apron better than most. Unless he left the team/was dismissed but I never saw any news of that.

I thought he was dismissed, and remember I thought it was unfortunate, but I may have just made an assumption...can't really remember.

According to the Suns staff directory, he's still an assistant GM.

https://www.nba.com/suns/staff

[lilfishi22]

Ayton and 6 2nds might sound quite a bit more appealing to a team than just Ayton.

Speaking of that ......

Check out this quote from Johnny Ball over on the general boards in the Cam Payne trade thread:

They seem to be the only ones that currently understand the CBA changes that allow teams to actually re-sign their own 2nd round picks without using their MLE makes 2nd round picks more valuable, particularly at the top/first half of the 2nd round. Not many picks hit, but the drafts keep getting deeper and the problem with 2nd rounders in past was keeping them when you were a good and capped out team, making those picks pretty worthless to those teams.


Flat out buying top half 2nd round picks right now would be a good strategy.

Yeah, I saw that. My initial thought was that they are just replenishing picks as they build out the scouting department, allowing them to get developmental players on cheap contracts instead of relying on too many minimums each year. Which I still think is a good strategy, and these swaps likely don't come into play.

As to that poster's comment on buying 2nd round picks. I don't even know if that is possible anymore, especially if the cash limit is still $3 million, given that in this past draft, teams were paying a chunk just to move up a few spots in the 2nd round.

Looking at where those 2nds are likely to land (ie likely 50+), my first thought was they were purely to replenish our trade assets for more trades later on. I'd be astonished if we actually used any of those in a draft and keep that player.

[King4Day]

I don't get Ishbia's weird fascination with Bol Bol, he couldn't cut it on a losing team why do we need to sign him to a guaranteed contract when he's probably not going to see meaningful minutes?

We better have another deal in the works otherwise this is a really weird move just to save a few bucks when Ishbia seems intent on paying as much as possible in order to win?

I feel like it would be Vogel's call to add those bigs since he wants rim protectors. Now he has 4. If 1 or 2 go down, he's still covered.

[King4Day]

Crazy ish went from 8th to 9th guy on this roster to clearly the last man, and I wouldn't be surprised if his spot isn't replaced here in the next few days.

The only players remaining on last year's roster that started the team with the Suns will be book and ayton were that to happen, pretty sure no roster has been turned over that much in a single year ever.

I wonder if you can combine a player salary with a TPE. I know you can't combine TPE's so I imagine you can't. But if so, I sense that's where we'd be headed before the guarantee date on Ish's contract.

[garrick]

I don't get Ishbia's weird fascination with Bol Bol, he couldn't cut it on a losing team why do we need to sign him to a guaranteed contract when he's probably not going to see meaningful minutes?

We better have another deal in the works otherwise this is a really weird move just to save a few bucks when Ishbia seems intent on paying as much as possible in order to win?

I feel like it would be Vogel's call to add those bigs since he wants rim protectors. Now he has 4. If 1 or 2 go down, he's still covered.

Bol Bol is rail thin and isn't really a big more like a SF/SG combo at best. We should have offered him a 2 way contract since I believe we can have 3 now with the new CBA deal.

[Sunsdeuce]

Everyone has a source

Read on Twitter

[lilfishi22]

Crazy ish went from 8th to 9th guy on this roster to clearly the last man, and I wouldn't be surprised if his spot isn't replaced here in the next few days.

The only players remaining on last year's roster that started the team with the Suns will be book and ayton were that to happen, pretty sure no roster has been turned over that much in a single year ever.

I wonder if you can combine a player salary with a TPE. I know you can't combine TPE's so I imagine you can't. But if so, I sense that's where we'd be headed before the guarantee date on Ish's contract.

More notes on traded player exceptions:
Trade exceptions created in non-simultaneous trades can’t be combined with one another, with other exceptions, or with a player’s salary; they can’t be used to sign a free agent (except in a sign-and-trade); and they can’t be traded outright to another team.

Looks like it basically has to be a straight 1 for 1 trade or signing.

[Mulhollanddrive]

If we wanted McConnell it shows we want a PG.

[SunsRback4Good]

I’d rather keep Ayton than try to add a pg at his expense. Point Book/Point Beal it is… and this cat Goodwin i think will be more than adequate. Have read nothing but good things and of course, hes here at the insistence of BBeal.

Not worried at all. Payne was expendable.


Dont know who exactly is behind all this creative roster finagling, but it sure seems beyond Jones’ conservative ways/history. Its almost remarkable to see where we are now, compared to just a few months ago…. With the challenges/limitations faced to get here. Hats off to someone(s)

Maybe now since Sarver is gone, Jones has more wiggle room to expand on different types of trades/ideas. Would be interesting if Jones is somehow responsible for 1/3rd of the roster moves or does everything fall on our new owner? Jones did have two seasons to make changes and decided to stay put hurting us in the process. But if Jones was that responsible for roster management why didn’t Ishbia get rid of him? Hmm

JJ did say in the most recent ESPN interview that his role and I think the breadth of what he's able to do has expanded under Ishbia. Got the impression that he was fairly restricted by Sarver when he came down to making bigger moves. CP3 was kinda his one and done big move under Sarver really.

I didn’t get a chance to watch the interview but it’s all making more sense now. JJ probably had a few great ideas for trades/pickups last few seasons but if Sarver said “no” it could have cost us a title. But who knows what goes in begins closed doors besides the management all we read is what the media writes but you know they aren’t 100% credible.

[NE1Care]

Lets make it happen.
Will it into reality.
There are only so many push ups one can do.
Kelly Oubre Jr the original Valley boy homecoming.

[lilfishi22]

Murray isn't a traditional point guard Joker ran point 80 percent of the time, very few teams have a traditional pg anymore.

Can't really use Jokic/Nuggets as an example because Jokic is a better PG than 99% of the league. Agreed you don't need a traditional PG but having a guy who can handle the ball confidently, shoot 3's and defend off the bench and look good stepping into the starting line up when required is still something highly sought after. Not saying Cam shouldn't have been traded but just the idea of relying on Gordon and a very young and inexperienced Goodwin could be a problem. If Book or Beal or Gordon gets injured, it's next man up and Goodwin will be playing real minutes with no other guard off the bench outside of Saben Lee who I have even less confidence in.

The roster isn't done yet so we'll see what else we come up with but salary dumping a player who's been in the rotation for the past 3-4 seasons is something that we'll feel if we don't patch up that gap.

I'm almost certain a follow up is coming. Before going into free agency I said we had 3 guys worth bringing back, and that was Okogie (got him), Landale (QO tendered but pulled), and Payne.

These 3 were the best EPM guys we had on the bench with the best DARKO projections. As frustrating as Payne was, and while he wasn't quite as good as Okogie/Landale, he was a clear cut above the rest of the bench.

Coupled with our apparent interest in TMac, this makes me think there is something in the works. Or at least they're trying to get something done.

But it also sounds like we like Goodwin a lot already, and that's cool too. It's a little confusing in that, hey if we like Goodwin, why can't Payne just be 3rd string point. You could do way worse.

But also Payne is somebody who will probably be out of the league once that speed loses a step and he's 29 already.

It just comes down to guard depth for me. Doesn't need to be a traditional PG (Payne is more of a combo than a traditional PG) but they do need to be an experienced guard who can handle the ball in my view. Looking at the depth chart right now, after Book/Beal, you're basically down to Goodwin, Gordon and Lee as the only ball handlers. One of these dudes is turning 35 on Xmas day while neither of the other two have high level experience on a contender. The ball handling experience drops off a cliff after Gordon and that is what worries me. We have Okogie and Lee but you don't want either to really be doing anything more than bring the ball up the court occasionally.

I think we basically saw an opportunity to dump/create a TPE while creating a roster spot and we took it. The $6.5m TPE might come in handy but a bunch of teams still have exceptions left to give to the few quality FA's still without a team so it'll continue to be a competitive process to try and lure a guy to play with us.

[sunsbum]

Lets make it happen.
Will it into reality.
There are only so many push ups one can do.
Kelly Oubre Jr the original Valley boy homecoming.

I'd hard pass on that.

[Mulhollanddrive]

So this suggests we're running Beal at PG.

Beal, Booker, Okogie, Durant, Ayton
Goodwin, Gordon, Bates-Diop, Watanabe, Eubanks
Lee, Lee, Wainright, Camara, Bol, Metu

I actually don't think it's a far stretch to think Saben Lee could have been the equal to or if not better than Payne this season so maybe that's what we're thinking.

Beal has to work (and Goodwin too at backup) if not we're unbalanced, but if they work then we have Gordon as 3rd PG option, Lee as 4th PG option which is pretty good.

[Mulhollanddrive]

Fun fact our luxury tax bill is less than last season.

2022-2023 - $52m
2023-2024 - $47m

[lilfishi22]

Maybe now since Sarver is gone, Jones has more wiggle room to expand on different types of trades/ideas. Would be interesting if Jones is somehow responsible for 1/3rd of the roster moves or does everything fall on our new owner? Jones did have two seasons to make changes and decided to stay put hurting us in the process. But if Jones was that responsible for roster management why didn’t Ishbia get rid of him? Hmm

JJ did say in the most recent ESPN interview that his role and I think the breadth of what he's able to do has expanded under Ishbia. Got the impression that he was fairly restricted by Sarver when he came down to making bigger moves. CP3 was kinda his one and done big move under Sarver really.

I didn’t get a chance to watch the interview but it’s all making more sense now. JJ probably had a few great ideas for trades/pickups last few seasons but if Sarver said “no” it could have cost us a title. But who knows what goes in begins closed doors besides the management all we read is what the media writes but you know they aren’t 100% credible.

I just don't get the impression a GM would choose not to use whatever is available to them to make the team better. For example, we had the BAE and we had money left in the MLE pot which we just never used under Sarver and it's really difficult for me to believe that a GM would not use it even if it's just taking a punt on a guy who may or may not help.

Under Sarver, it just feels like every move to advance the team comes with the condition that something has to go back into his hip pocket, usually in the form of de-committing to long term salary. Under Ishbia, the directive seems to be to do what you can to make this team better, you don't need to find me salary savings for me to agree. Between JJ and Ishbia, there seems to be a agreement that we will do what we need to do to win.

[Mulhollanddrive]

So a Beal, Booker, Okogie, Durant, Ayton starting 5 would just be Beal replacing Paul.

Given all the talk about high turnover, lack of depth, and massive taxes none seem to be actually true.

[Jdiddy701]

Am I the only person who doesn’t want Okogie in the starting lineup? I think we’re too small with him and I don’t trust him to make shots. In the playoffs, depending on the matchup, I’m probably starting Eric Gordon as our primary PG.

Edit: just realized I mentioned Gordon after saying we’re too small with Okogie. I guess his shooting intrigues me.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Hitachi77]

Payne deal is incredibly stupid if the don’t get another player down the road, will see what happens. A lot of faith in players who haven’t played for us yet.

And I don’t like Okogie starting. He was scared to shoot in the playoffs. Reg season he will be fine, but that’s the scary part. Hopefully we don’t have to scramble to find players who can make open shots in the playoffs, again.

Btw Payne is the only guy who showed up in game 6 vs the Nuggets. I get that he has been injured and inconsistent, but playoff production can’t be taken for granted.

[Hitachi77]

Am I the only person who doesn’t want Okogie in the starting lineup? I think we’re too small with him and I don’t trust him to make shots. In the playoffs, depending on the matchup, I’m probably starting Eric Gordon as our primary PG.

Edit: just realized I mentioned Gordon after saying we’re too small with Okogie. I guess his shooting intrigues me.

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Yea, just mentioned that. I am guessing Gordon will be the guy getting crunch time minutes in the playoffs. But still, having Okogie play well in the reg season, then disappear in the playoffs again, can have a pretty bad ripple effect.