Official Scottie Barnes Thread - Part 5

[Raps in 4]

in the summer run, there's so many flaws lol

Summer runs are casual workouts.

[Scase]

i guess everyone's just nervous....

Yes some fans are getting what they want, build around Scottie, give him a chance and run wiht it
but ppl are starting to notice, in the summer run, there's so many flaws lol

Scottie had an incredible year last year. He could've had an even better year had it not been for the coach, his trainer and Fred. He's an elite playmaker on the same level as Jokic and Luka and he should also have a usage rate that is equivalent to Lebron and Giannis. Is this what you want to hear?

Scottie has a lot of flaws in his game. People have every right to discuss that.

Of course he has flaws lmao. He’s just completed his second year, he is as raw as advertised and is only 22 years old. It’s your refusal to see the skills he DOES possess and your refusal to see his potential that folks find flabbergasting. Of all the posters on this board you are the one who seems to be not just lukewarm on who he is now but who he can become. If all goes well he projects to be an incredible player. Of course, that’s not guaranteed and maybe he becomes a solid starter/role player, but to constantly downplay the possibility of that destiny is…I don’t even know what to call it bro. *shrug*

Yeah man summer runs are 100% indicative of the regular season, there's definitely never been a summer run with a player that is barely fit to be in the NBA scoring 70 points or anything.

[Boogie!]

Is it bait, if he believes it?

Scottie had an incredible year last year. He could've had an even better year had it not been for the coach, his trainer and Fred. He's an elite playmaker on the same level as Jokic and Luka and he should also have a usage rate that is equivalent to Lebron and Giannis. Is this what you want to hear?

Scottie has a lot of flaws in his game. People have every right to discuss that.

Of course he has flaws lmao. He’s just completed his second year, he is as raw as advertised and is only 22 years old. It’s your refusal to see the skills he DOES possess and your refusal to see his potential that folks find flabbergasting. Of all the posters on this board you are the one who seems to be not just lukewarm on who he is now but who he can become. If all goes well he projects to be an incredible player. Of course, that’s not guaranteed and maybe he becomes a solid starter/role player, but to constantly downplay the possibility of that destiny is…I don’t even know what to call it bro. *shrug*

Wait Los is trying to play the "were allowed to discuss his flaws" card after getting upset every time you would talk about fvvs flaws and would literally flip every criticism of Fred into some sort of positive. Fred bricks a stupid layup in traffic, "it was a good play it led to offensive rebounding opportunities."

[sbsat]

I mean, he chooses who he trains with, so it's obviously his fault regardless. Nobody is saying that Scottie not panning out won't be his fault. But he's far from "not panning out".

Has anyone actually been in the gym with Scottie and his trainer and can say his trainer is bad? The only evidence we have is one second season and Doug Smith saying he didn't work hard enough. So unless you're in the gym and know his training plan and your an athletic trainer you can't say that with any objectivity.

I'm honestly not sure why a lot of people are so skeptical of Barnes. That one game early in the season where we decimated the Hawks while he started for an injured fvv, and he was raining treys, he looked like a legitimate superstar. If I recall he put up close to a triple double and he did it with ease.

I don't think people truly understand how good he is to be putting up the numbers he has been, all while being a 5th option scorer and having absolutely no reliable mid range jumpshot or 3 pointer. If this guy becomes even just a siakam level shooter, he's gonna be dominant.

Scottie himself said his conditioning was not good enough last year. Thats training. Honestly he improved no aspect of his fame last year..m maybe his passing? Thats training. Its very good hes self aware though and all you hope is he learned from his sophomore year. He has all the skills to be a dominant force.

[Chandan]

Riiiight...Barnes succeeds and its going to be all Barnes, Barnes fails, blame his trainer and everyone else. It's already started.

Look...If Barnes doesn't get better its 100% on Scottie Barnes.

I mean, he chooses who he trains with, so it's obviously his fault regardless. Nobody is saying that Scottie not panning out won't be his fault. But he's far from "not panning out".

FVV failed his project

[HiJiNX]

Scottie had an incredible year last year. He could've had an even better year had it not been for the coach, his trainer and Fred. He's an elite playmaker on the same level as Jokic and Luka and he should also have a usage rate that is equivalent to Lebron and Giannis. Is this what you want to hear?

Scottie has a lot of flaws in his game. People have every right to discuss that.

Of course he has flaws lmao. He’s just completed his second year, he is as raw as advertised and is only 22 years old. It’s your refusal to see the skills he DOES possess and your refusal to see his potential that folks find flabbergasting. Of all the posters on this board you are the one who seems to be not just lukewarm on who he is now but who he can become. If all goes well he projects to be an incredible player. Of course, that’s not guaranteed and maybe he becomes a solid starter/role player, but to constantly downplay the possibility of that destiny is…I don’t even know what to call it bro. *shrug*

Wait Los is trying to play the "were allowed to discuss his flaws" card after getting upset every time you would talk about fvvs flaws and would literally flip every criticism of Fred into some sort of positive. Fred bricks a stupid layup in traffic, "it was a good play it led to offensive rebounding opportunities."

Bro, the getting blocked at the rim leading to offensive rebounding opportunities argument was actually hilarious haha. Fred has a lot of strengths but scoring efficiency isn’t one of them. Especially in the paint. Last year he cleaned that up a bit and took fewer shots at the rim, kept his dribble alive, and became a good playmaker. Wish we had had more of that when he was also playing amazing the year before.

[Johnny Bball]

Of course he has flaws lmao. He’s just completed his second year, he is as raw as advertised and is only 22 years old. It’s your refusal to see the skills he DOES possess and your refusal to see his potential that folks find flabbergasting. Of all the posters on this board you are the one who seems to be not just lukewarm on who he is now but who he can become. If all goes well he projects to be an incredible player. Of course, that’s not guaranteed and maybe he becomes a solid starter/role player, but to constantly downplay the possibility of that destiny is…I don’t even know what to call it bro. *shrug*

Wait Los is trying to play the "were allowed to discuss his flaws" card after getting upset every time you would talk about fvvs flaws and would literally flip every criticism of Fred into some sort of positive. Fred bricks a stupid layup in traffic, "it was a good play it led to offensive rebounding opportunities."

Bro, the getting blocked at the rim leading to offensive rebounding opportunities argument was actually hilarious haha. Fred has a lot of strengths but scoring efficiency isn’t one of them. Especially in the paint. Last year he cleaned that up a bit and took fewer shots at the rim, kept his dribble alive, and became a good playmaker. Wish we had had more of that when he was also playing amazing the year before.

Yeah. VanVleet had his worst year, by far, even if he did clean some up. It will be interesting to see what he does after getting 42 million. A year. Or some other people could presume it was his baseline. Doesn't matter in Toronto anymore.

Doesn't matter to Barnes anymore. The best thing that could happen to Barnes is Nurse is gone.

[Los_29]

Is it bait, if he believes it?

Scottie had an incredible year last year. He could've had an even better year had it not been for the coach, his trainer and Fred. He's an elite playmaker on the same level as Jokic and Luka and he should also have a usage rate that is equivalent to Lebron and Giannis. Is this what you want to hear?

Scottie has a lot of flaws in his game. People have every right to discuss that.

Of course he has flaws lmao. He’s just completed his second year, he is as raw as advertised and is only 22 years old. It’s your refusal to see the skills he DOES possess and your refusal to see his potential that folks find flabbergasting. Of all the posters on this board you are the one who seems to be not just lukewarm on who he is now but who he can become. If all goes well he projects to be an incredible player. Of course, that’s not guaranteed and maybe he becomes a solid starter/role player, but to constantly downplay the possibility of that destiny is…I don’t even know what to call it bro. *shrug*

We do see his skills though. We just objectively look at them and don't anoint them as elite when they aren't lol. I believe Scottie has a much higher ceiling than players like Franz and Giddey and I'm very happy we drafted him. If everything goes well with Scottie then we are going to have a very, very good player. Even if he never develops a jumper, he is still going to be a good player in this league given his defensive versatility, rebounding and vision.

But I think this place is heading in the wrong direction when people can't address certain player's weaknesses.

[Los_29]

Of course he has flaws lmao. He’s just completed his second year, he is as raw as advertised and is only 22 years old. It’s your refusal to see the skills he DOES possess and your refusal to see his potential that folks find flabbergasting. Of all the posters on this board you are the one who seems to be not just lukewarm on who he is now but who he can become. If all goes well he projects to be an incredible player. Of course, that’s not guaranteed and maybe he becomes a solid starter/role player, but to constantly downplay the possibility of that destiny is…I don’t even know what to call it bro. *shrug*

Wait Los is trying to play the "were allowed to discuss his flaws" card after getting upset every time you would talk about fvvs flaws and would literally flip every criticism of Fred into some sort of positive. Fred bricks a stupid layup in traffic, "it was a good play it led to offensive rebounding opportunities."

Bro, the getting blocked at the rim leading to offensive rebounding opportunities argument was actually hilarious haha. Fred has a lot of strengths but scoring efficiency isn’t one of them. Especially in the paint. Last year he cleaned that up a bit and took fewer shots at the rim, kept his dribble alive, and became a good playmaker. Wish we had had more of that when he was also playing amazing the year before.

See now you guys are just being silly and ignoring context. Even commentators like VC, SVG, RJ helped validate what many on this board were saying. Fred clearly has flaws as well. No one has ever denied that. The fact he has flaws is why even his supporters have said he should be a 3rd or 4th option. Unfortunately, he couldn't be that here.

[ItsDanger]

To maximize Scottie's potential, the ball must be in his hands more. This season will be the first where that may happen and you can judge him more accurately then. That wasn't happening with Fred calling his own number and dictating the play so often. He emulates Magic's style and Lakers then were scoring often with a crowded paint when in the half court. However, this requires everyone to buy into movement and multiple screens.

[TheGeneral99]

Scottie had an incredible year last year. He could've had an even better year had it not been for the coach, his trainer and Fred. He's an elite playmaker on the same level as Jokic and Luka and he should also have a usage rate that is equivalent to Lebron and Giannis. Is this what you want to hear?

Scottie has a lot of flaws in his game. People have every right to discuss that.

Of course he has flaws lmao. He’s just completed his second year, he is as raw as advertised and is only 22 years old. It’s your refusal to see the skills he DOES possess and your refusal to see his potential that folks find flabbergasting. Of all the posters on this board you are the one who seems to be not just lukewarm on who he is now but who he can become. If all goes well he projects to be an incredible player. Of course, that’s not guaranteed and maybe he becomes a solid starter/role player, but to constantly downplay the possibility of that destiny is…I don’t even know what to call it bro. *shrug*

Wait Los is trying to play the "were allowed to discuss his flaws" card after getting upset every time you would talk about fvvs flaws and would literally flip every criticism of Fred into some sort of positive. Fred bricks a stupid layup in traffic, "it was a good play it led to offensive rebounding opportunities."

I don't think anyone here actually was upset over legitimate critique of Vanvleet.

It was strange that a select group of posters had a crazy obsession with Vanvleet that was beyond anything rational - which included dissecting every interview/podcast he was on, takes one line quotes of context, calling him a horrible teammate who didn't want Scottie to succeed, saying he was deliberately sabotaging Scottie's growth, was a poor leader etc etc. And it was these same posters who would blame Fred for every single issue this team had despite him being our 2nd ranked player in Win Shares and RPM.

I think most acknowledged that Fred had flaws, particularly his tunnel vision on drives and low efficiency in the paint. His subpar 3 point shooting was the main cause of his struggles this season where for most of his career he has been an elite 3 point shooter.

In terms of Scottie - he's a fantastic talent, has a very high IQ, great passer, a very good post-game in the paint, can bully people with his strength and size, excellent in transition, has a lot of passion, seems to be a great teammate.

His issues he needs to work on are his shooting, footwork and conditioning. He has the talent and tools to become an all-star.

[Boogie!]

Has anyone actually been in the gym with Scottie and his trainer and can say his trainer is bad? The only evidence we have is one second season and Doug Smith saying he didn't work hard enough. So unless you're in the gym and know his training plan and your an athletic trainer you can't say that with any objectivity.

I'm honestly not sure why a lot of people are so skeptical of Barnes. That one game early in the season where we decimated the Hawks while he started for an injured fvv, and he was raining treys, he looked like a legitimate superstar. If I recall he put up close to a triple double and he did it with ease.

I don't think people truly understand how good he is to be putting up the numbers he has been, all while being a 5th option scorer and having absolutely no reliable mid range jumpshot or 3 pointer. If this guy becomes even just a siakam level shooter, he's gonna be dominant.

Scottie himself said his conditioning was not good enough last year. Thats training. Honestly he improved no aspect of his fame last year..m maybe his passing? Thats training. Its very good hes self aware though and all you hope is he learned from his sophomore year. He has all the skills to be a dominant force.

Real question but what kinda of leaps in production would you have expected with the role he was in playing behind fvv and siakam and to a lesser extent og? Nick even tried to change the system to make use of Barnes more and then said **** it after a few games when fvv had an issue with it.

The only way Barnes could've made a bigger impact is if he became a better catch and shoot player and then he could've provided spacing for the other ball dominant players. So I will blame Barnes for not immediately becoming a 3 point threat like og was coming into the league. That's really the only criticism I have of him. And I've always said that's really the one part of his game that will unlock everything else. So the sooner he can shoot consistently the better.

[TheGeneral99]

I'm honestly not sure why a lot of people are so skeptical of Barnes. That one game early in the season where we decimated the Hawks while he started for an injured fvv, and he was raining treys, he looked like a legitimate superstar. If I recall he put up close to a triple double and he did it with ease.

I don't think people truly understand how good he is to be putting up the numbers he has been, all while being a 5th option scorer and having absolutely no reliable mid range jumpshot or 3 pointer. If this guy becomes even just a siakam level shooter, he's gonna be dominant.

Scottie himself said his conditioning was not good enough last year. Thats training. Honestly he improved no aspect of his fame last year..m maybe his passing? Thats training. Its very good hes self aware though and all you hope is he learned from his sophomore year. He has all the skills to be a dominant force.

Real question but what kinda of leaps in production would you have expected with the role he was in playing behind fvv and siakam and to a lesser extent og? Nick even tried to change the system to make use of Barnes more and then said **** it after a few games when fvv had an issue with it.

The only way Barnes could've made a bigger impact is if he became a better catch and shoot player and then he could've provided spacing for the other ball dominant players. So I will blame Barnes for not immediately becoming a 3 point threat like og was coming into the league. That's really the only criticism I have of him. And I've always said that's really the one part of his game that will unlock everything else. So the sooner he can shoot consistently the better.

Not exactly true.

After the first 10 games or so, this team was ravaged by injuries early in the season. Siakam strained his adductor in November 8 and missed the next 10 games or so, Precious had ligament tears and missed 30 games, and Gary also missed a few games early, which made Fred become a more focal point of the offense by default.

I love Barnes, but my biggest critique of him last season was his lack of aggressiveness some games. He had plenty of opportunity to establish himself as a focal point of the offense with Pascal, OG, Fred, Gary etc. missing games due to injury and some games he deferred way too much and didn't assert himself. Other games when he was aggressive he looked dominant.

I'm hoping he can sustain that aggressive attitude more consistently next season and part of that is conditioning.

[Tha Cynic]

Scottie had an incredible year last year. He could've had an even better year had it not been for the coach, his trainer and Fred. He's an elite playmaker on the same level as Jokic and Luka and he should also have a usage rate that is equivalent to Lebron and Giannis. Is this what you want to hear?

Scottie has a lot of flaws in his game. People have every right to discuss that.

Of course he has flaws lmao. He’s just completed his second year, he is as raw as advertised and is only 22 years old. It’s your refusal to see the skills he DOES possess and your refusal to see his potential that folks find flabbergasting. Of all the posters on this board you are the one who seems to be not just lukewarm on who he is now but who he can become. If all goes well he projects to be an incredible player. Of course, that’s not guaranteed and maybe he becomes a solid starter/role player, but to constantly downplay the possibility of that destiny is…I don’t even know what to call it bro. *shrug*

Wait Los is trying to play the "were allowed to discuss his flaws" card after getting upset every time you would talk about fvvs flaws and would literally flip every criticism of Fred into some sort of positive. Fred bricks a stupid layup in traffic, "it was a good play it led to offensive rebounding opportunities."

Let the person troll. It can't be easy not having him around anymore.

[Scase]

Of course he has flaws lmao. He’s just completed his second year, he is as raw as advertised and is only 22 years old. It’s your refusal to see the skills he DOES possess and your refusal to see his potential that folks find flabbergasting. Of all the posters on this board you are the one who seems to be not just lukewarm on who he is now but who he can become. If all goes well he projects to be an incredible player. Of course, that’s not guaranteed and maybe he becomes a solid starter/role player, but to constantly downplay the possibility of that destiny is…I don’t even know what to call it bro. *shrug*

Wait Los is trying to play the "were allowed to discuss his flaws" card after getting upset every time you would talk about fvvs flaws and would literally flip every criticism of Fred into some sort of positive. Fred bricks a stupid layup in traffic, "it was a good play it led to offensive rebounding opportunities."

I don't think anyone here actually was upset over legitimate critique of Vanvleet.

It was strange that a select group of posters had a crazy obsession with Vanvleet that was beyond anything rational - which included dissecting every interview/podcast he was on, takes one line quotes of context, calling him a horrible teammate who didn't want Scottie to succeed, saying he was deliberately sabotaging Scottie's growth, was a poor leader etc etc. And it was these same posters who would blame Fred for every single issue this team had despite him being our 2nd ranked player in Win Shares and RPM.

I think most acknowledged that Fred had flaws, particularly his tunnel vision on drives and low efficiency in the paint. His subpar 3 point shooting was the main cause of his struggles this season where for most of his career he has been an elite 3 point shooter.

In terms of Scottie - he's a fantastic talent, has a very high IQ, great passer, a very good post-game in the paint, can bully people with his strength and size, excellent in transition, has a lot of passion, seems to be a great teammate.

His issues he needs to work on are his shooting, footwork and conditioning. He has the talent and tools to become an all-star.

Yeah except that doesn't matter when it doesn't cut both ways. As many people as there are with the crazy anti Fred disposition, there are those that turn a blind eye to giant red flags and fall back on excuse after excuse.

Additionally, this was primarily about Scottie and how "we're not allowed to discuss his flaws", when the post didn't contain anything but flaws, and saying that he has no elite skills. Which is honestly, just dumb to say.

There are plenty of gripes that I have with Scotties game that I hope get rectified, but I'm also not such a cheerleader/hater that I can't admit the opposite. Scottie has elite level BBIQ, playmaking, and court vision. Some people here are more than happy to dump on him, but refuse to give him his flowers for the positive aspects of his game.

Like we're here trying to argue he has no elite skills, a player picked 4th overall and won ROTY as a 4/5th option, has no elite skills. Man, can't wait til the day I get that kinda unearned luck.

[TheGeneral99]

Wait Los is trying to play the "were allowed to discuss his flaws" card after getting upset every time you would talk about fvvs flaws and would literally flip every criticism of Fred into some sort of positive. Fred bricks a stupid layup in traffic, "it was a good play it led to offensive rebounding opportunities."

I don't think anyone here actually was upset over legitimate critique of Vanvleet.

It was strange that a select group of posters had a crazy obsession with Vanvleet that was beyond anything rational - which included dissecting every interview/podcast he was on, takes one line quotes of context, calling him a horrible teammate who didn't want Scottie to succeed, saying he was deliberately sabotaging Scottie's growth, was a poor leader etc etc. And it was these same posters who would blame Fred for every single issue this team had despite him being our 2nd ranked player in Win Shares and RPM.

I think most acknowledged that Fred had flaws, particularly his tunnel vision on drives and low efficiency in the paint. His subpar 3 point shooting was the main cause of his struggles this season where for most of his career he has been an elite 3 point shooter.

In terms of Scottie - he's a fantastic talent, has a very high IQ, great passer, a very good post-game in the paint, can bully people with his strength and size, excellent in transition, has a lot of passion, seems to be a great teammate.

His issues he needs to work on are his shooting, footwork and conditioning. He has the talent and tools to become an all-star.

Yeah except that doesn't matter when it doesn't cut both ways. As many people as there are with the crazy anti Fred disposition, there are those that turn a blind eye to giant red flags and fall back on excuse after excuse.

Additionally, this was primarily about Scottie and how "we're not allowed to discuss his flaws", when the post didn't contain anything but flaws, and saying that he has no elite skills. Which is honestly, just dumb to say.

There are plenty of gripes that I have with Scotties game that I hope get rectified, but I'm also not such a cheerleader/hater that I can't admit the opposite. Scottie has elite level BBIQ, playmaking, and court vision. Some people here are more than happy to dump on him, but refuse to give him his flowers for the positive aspects of his game.

Like we're here trying to argue he has no elite skills, a player picked 4th overall and won ROTY as a 4/5th option, has no elite skills. Man, can't wait til the day I get that kinda unearned luck.

I've really not been seeing this whatsoever.

Very, very few posters have really critiqued Scottie to a large extent at all. Sure there were some complaints about his lack of aggressiveness at times, his lack of shooting, conditioning etc. but in large part almost everyone here acknowledges he has a ton of talent and all-star potential. While he didn't make the leap from year 1 to year 2 that we hoped for, this board is pretty much unanimously optimistic that he'll improve.

The Fred hate was just a different level of animosity that I've really never encountered on this board. It was a strange obsession with him, dissecting anything little thing he said and blowing it up, and attempting to frame him as the most selfish guy in the league deliberately trying to sabotage Scottie's career out of pure spite and jealousy. You couldn't even go through a thread that wasn't even about Fred, without the same group of ultra-Fred haters making personal attacks and promoting conspiracies.

[720]

Riiiight...Barnes succeeds and its going to be all Barnes, Barnes fails, blame his trainer and everyone else. It's already started.

Look...If Barnes doesn't get better its 100% on Scottie Barnes.

Sorta like how you blamed everyone except Fred about the locker room issues, his inefficient shooting, tunnel vision, garbage defense, stat padding. Thing is we have a reason to be excited about a third year blue chip prospect who hasn’t been given his fair shake yet while you had no reason to defend Freddy Allstar tooth and nail.

[Johnny Bball]

Riiiight...Barnes succeeds and its going to be all Barnes, Barnes fails, blame his trainer and everyone else. It's already started.

Look...If Barnes doesn't get better its 100% on Scottie Barnes.

Sorta like how you blamed everyone except Fred about the locker room issues, his inefficient shooting, tunnel vision, garbage defense, stat padding. Thing is we have a reason to be excited about a third year blue chip prospect who hasn’t been given his fair shake yet while you had no reason to defend Freddy Allstar tooth and nail.

Sorta like ... what? That doesn't relate to my post one bit and wtf are talking about? So much derp. Where am did I even talk about FVV in this post?

The reason YOU have to be excited is you are a stan and always have been. You just needed someone to stan for. And your stanning confuses you into thinking I don't think Barnes can improve, which is wrong, and your stanning is why you don't think I like Barnes, which is wrong.

What my post is about is entitlement (fans, not Barnes) and pointing fingers. When you get older and figure it out, we can talk about it then.

[TheGeneral99]

Riiiight...Barnes succeeds and its going to be all Barnes, Barnes fails, blame his trainer and everyone else. It's already started.

Look...If Barnes doesn't get better its 100% on Scottie Barnes.

Sorta like how you blamed everyone except Fred about the locker room issues, his inefficient shooting, tunnel vision, garbage defense, stat padding. Thing is we have a reason to be excited about a third year blue chip prospect who hasn’t been given his fair shake yet while you had no reason to defend Freddy Allstar tooth and nail.

You are one of the ring leaders for the irrational, obsessive and emotional Fred hate so you aren't the guy that has much credibility here.

Most people here acknowledge that Barnes is a really good player, has all-star potential, and has a lot to improve upon (which is completely normal for a bit of a raw 3rd year player). It's really not that controversial at all.

Not sure why you are saying he hasn't been given his fair shake. We had have a ton of injuries the last two seasons. All the advanced stats show Barnes benefitted from playing beside Fred and his on and off numbers were better with Fred. One of my critiques was that when we did have injuries and Barnes had a chance to elevate his role he tended to be passive and defer too much on offense. However, I think we could all say that when Barnes was aggressive he was dominant and looked unstoppable some games. So I'm hoping he can keep that aggressive mindset consistently.

That being said, I am also hoping that Barnes can eventually become a full time PG. It's unclear whether he is good enough to run a team full-time or is best suited for the point forward role like Green and Jokic. Only time will tell.

[720]

Riiiight...Barnes succeeds and its going to be all Barnes, Barnes fails, blame his trainer and everyone else. It's already started.

Look...If Barnes doesn't get better its 100% on Scottie Barnes.

Sorta like how you blamed everyone except Fred about the locker room issues, his inefficient shooting, tunnel vision, garbage defense, stat padding. Thing is we have a reason to be excited about a third year blue chip prospect who hasn’t been given his fair shake yet while you had no reason to defend Freddy Allstar tooth and nail.

You are one of the ring leaders for the irrational, obsessive and emotional Fred hate so you aren't the guy that has much credibility here.

Most people here acknowledge that Barnes is a really good player, has all-star potential, and has a lot to improve upon (which is completely normal for a bit of a raw 3rd year player). It's really not that controversial at all.

Not sure why you are saying he hasn't been given his fair shake. We had have a ton of injuries the last two seasons. All the advanced stats show Barnes benefitted from playing beside Fred and his on and off numbers were better with Fred. One of my critiques was that when we did have injuries and Barnes had a chance to elevate his role he tended to be passive and defer too much on offense. However, I think we could all say that when Barnes was aggressive he was dominant and looked unstoppable some games. So I'm hoping he can keep that aggressive mindset consistently.

That being said, I am also hoping that Barnes can eventually become a full time PG. It's unclear whether he is good enough to run a team full-time or is best suited for the point forward role like Green and Jokic. Only time will tell.

Most of the other talented prospects from his class haven’t had to take a back seat to a role player with a Napoleon complex hijacking the team masquerading as an allstar for two years, (aside from Mobley, but Garland and Mitchell are worth it). How do you pick a top 4 prospect and don’t even run plays for him and have him produce off broken plays and or spot possessions. Move him around the team and change his role constantly and expect him to be consistent.

The kid hasn’t even had his first season as a top 2 option yet and his haters are already making proclamations about supposed failures that are bound to happen according to them.