#1 Best Defensive Point Guard of all time - The ten best defenders in each position Project

[uberhikari]

My vote is for Jason Kidd.

And my second is for Chris Paul. CP3 is clearly the second most impactful defender here with longevity that lasts for the better part of a decade. From '08-'14 he averaged 2.5 spg without ever being a gambler and with no hand-checking. His DRPM has always been monstrous, his BBIQ is historically great, and even though PGs have the least amount of defensive impact overall whenever CP3 was injured the Clippers' defense suffered horribly regardless of DeAndre Jordan.

[homecourtloss]

Jason Kidd. The best longevity out of all the point guards, has the strength and size to guard multiple positions, and rates out well in both traditional defensive stats (#2 in steals behind Stockton, #2 in blocks behind DJ, #1 in defensive rebounds) and advanced defensive stats (#1 in DWS, #3 in DBPM behind McMillan and MRR). His career DRAPM in JE's 15 year dataset is solid (+1.3) and he had the second highest single season defensive on/off I have seen from a point guard in 1999 at -9.2.

Regarding other possible candidates
Payton: Not better than McMillan before 96 and with him slacking on defense often after 98 with increased offensive volume, this severely limits the amount of time Payton had as a truly high level defender. I find his 96 defense on MJ to be overrated since I remember doing some analysis a while back and Jordan's PPP weren't any worse against him than Hawkins/McMillan
Frazier: Longevity is only 2/3 of Kidd's. Steal stats were underwhelming for somebody with his quickness reputation. Knicks defense dropped from top 5 to below average after DeBusschere's retirement while Frazier was still in prime, which makes me question how much of the DRtg improvement in 69/70 was due to the arrival of DeBusschere as opposed to the development of Frazier.

Great post as usual. Kidd gets my vote as well.

Also, something that went a little under the radar was how good LonzoBall’s defensive rookie season was, i.e., one of the greatest defensive seasons from a rookie PG ever, and already better than most PGs’ peak defensive seasons. His season last year might have been better then some of the players listed here best defensive seasons.

[trex_8063]

fwiw, I've stickied this to keep it plain view. I'll try to keep up with the project to do so for subsequent threads, too.

[trex_8063]

Jason Kidd. The best longevity out of all the point guards, has the strength and size to guard multiple positions, and rates out well in both traditional defensive stats (#2 in steals behind Stockton, #2 in blocks behind DJ, #1 in defensive rebounds) and advanced defensive stats (#1 in DWS, #3 in DBPM behind McMillan and MRR). His career DRAPM in JE's 15 year dataset is solid (+1.3) and he had the second highest single season defensive on/off I have seen from a point guard in 1999 at -9.2.

Out of curiosity, where did you get the on/off date for '99?

[LA Bird]

Jason Kidd. The best longevity out of all the point guards, has the strength and size to guard multiple positions, and rates out well in both traditional defensive stats (#2 in steals behind Stockton, #2 in blocks behind DJ, #1 in defensive rebounds) and advanced defensive stats (#1 in DWS, #3 in DBPM behind McMillan and MRR). His career DRAPM in JE's 15 year dataset is solid (+1.3) and he had the second highest single season defensive on/off I have seen from a point guard in 1999 at -9.2.

Out of curiosity, where did you get the on/off date for '99?

Reverse engineered using data from NBA.com. The precision may sometimes be off by 0.1 points per 100 possession due to rounding errors but the formula should be accurate on full season on/off back to 1998.

[cecilthesheep]

I'm going to throw in a vote here for Walt Frazier, if I'm allowed to as a new poster - I'm assuming this isn't like the top-100 players of all time where you have to be approved, but if I've missed some information then I apologize.

Kidd has Frazier and just about everyone else beat as far as longevity goes, but I don't think Kidd's peak approaches the havoc Frazier was capable of wreaking in his prime. Every piece of film I've watched from back then shows me that Frazier was a level above most of these other candidates as far as tenacity and disruption - even when he wasn't getting steals, he was constantly doing things to blow plays up like forcing his man to pick up their dribble too soon, cutting off passing lanes, etc. I've never seen anyone else change the game from the 1 like that, and it's all the more impressive given how little contact was allowed when Frazier played compared to when Payton and Kidd played.

Gary Payton also deserves serious consideration as the only point guard ever to win a DPOY, and I think him, Frazier, and Kidd are all very close together at the top, but in my opinion Frazier takes it in the end.

[trex_8063]

Jason Kidd. The best longevity out of all the point guards, has the strength and size to guard multiple positions, and rates out well in both traditional defensive stats (#2 in steals behind Stockton, #2 in blocks behind DJ, #1 in defensive rebounds) and advanced defensive stats (#1 in DWS, #3 in DBPM behind McMillan and MRR). His career DRAPM in JE's 15 year dataset is solid (+1.3) and he had the second highest single season defensive on/off I have seen from a point guard in 1999 at -9.2.

Out of curiosity, where did you get the on/off date for '99?

Reverse engineered using data from NBA.com. The precision may sometimes be off by 0.1 points per 100 possession due to rounding errors but the formula should be accurate on full season on/off back to 1998.

I didn't think they had any data on NBA.com going back further than just a few years ago. Can you provide a link to the data you're referring to?

[migya]

Hope John Stockton isn't forgotten. He was the best PG defender for most of the late 80s and 90s.

[HeartBreakKid]

Jason Kidd may not be the best man to man defender of all the pgs, but his help defense speaks for itself. He has the size to switch onto wings and guard them competently. He can box bigger players out for easy rebounds. He has a great combination of IQ, size and speed.

Add onto that he lift those Jersey defenses to really impressive levels. I remember in a past top 100 list people were arguing that Kidd's defensive impact metrics must be wrong because it was comparable to a bigs. Seems like he has a great case for #1.

My vote is for Jason Kidd

[AdagioPace]

semi-OT: I believe that, in 5-6 years, Dejounte Murray is going to arrogantly enter this conversation. He doesn't even need longevity if he keeps amassing wing-level defensive seasons at PG

[Gibson22]

About Jason Kidd, he really was a genius who saw plays seconds early and moved accordingly (gambling in a way but he rarely made mistakes) intercepting passes and preventing the easy shot that the opposing team had created if it wasn't for him, he really was the best help defender among PGs and he was really good at contesting (outside) shots, but he wasn't really that good at following the guy he guarded and making him work for every shot (or for every dribble like some of these guys are able to do), and that's what really defines a super-great perimeter defender for me. Genius defender yes, but not a demon that would follow you every half a movement you made, because he didn't have the tools to do it. One of the best yes, but not the perfect defender in my opinion. Then again, he also has the longevity that a lot of these guys don't have

[trex_8063]

As of post #31, I have the following count (few people make no definitive statement, fwiw):

Jason Kidd - 7 (trex_8063, uberhikari, homecourtloss, HeartBreakKid, SHAQ32, LABird, Dr Positivity)
Walt Frazier - 3 (mdonnelly1989, koogiking, cecilthesheep)
Jerry West - 2 (Samurai, pandrade83)
Nate McMillan - 2*? (feyki, lebron3-14-3*?----in post 31, lebron3-14-3 you seem like you're casting a vote for Kidd, even though you'd previously voted for Nate McMillan))

[Gibson22]

As of post #31, I have the following count (few people make no definitive statement, fwiw):

Jason Kidd - 7 (trex_8063, uberhikari, homecourtloss, HeartBreakKid, SHAQ32, LABird, Dr Positivity)
Walt Frazier - 3 (mdonnelly1989, koogiking, cecilthesheep)
Jerry West - 2 (Samurai, pandrade83)
Nate McMillan - 2*? (feyki, lebron3-14-3*?----in post 31, lebron3-14-3 you seem like you're casting a vote for Kidd, even though you'd previously voted for Nate McMillan))

Yeah I voted for Nate

[PigsOnTheWing]

I vote for Jason Kidd. Yesterday, I wrote that I was inclined to vote for West but after looking more closely, I've changed my mind. I think Kidd's peak on defense was 2004 as highlighted by a DRAPM of 2.1 (his highest and really good for a PG) with great value from 1998 to 2005. Then in 2006 and 2007, in the tail end of his prime, he fell a bit (high usage and aging, the same things that are affecting LeBron's defense). When he reduced his usage, his defensive impact increased accordingly and as a result he has the best longevity of the contenders for 1#.
Other than being an exceptional help defender, he is the best PG rebounder ever because he made his team better in that fundamental and that's more important than his personal numbers (otherwise that title would go to Westbrook or even Magic). Using cleaning the glass on/off numbers, he was constantly on of the best in the whole league (not only at his position) in opponents ORB% on/off.

My other main candidate was Jerry West. I love him, after Steve Nash he is probably my favorite player of all time but this has nothing to do with why I think he deserves to be this high. We have almost no defensive numbers for him so from an impact perspective it's hard to make an evaluation. But from every video I've seen, he seems to be absolutely phenomenal. Great timing, quick hands, good positioning, I guess he was able to lock down others guards very often. But the thing that jumped out to me the most was his help defense and IQ. He was praised by his contemporaries for his ability to quarterback the defense (though the Lakers had never had good DRTG until Wilt came along). The impact studies like WOWYR paint him as super valuable and I'm sure a +7 impact wasn't possible only with great offense in that era with stricter dribbling rules. That's why he'll most likely earn my #2 vote. He falls short in overall value from Kidd because of worse longevity and a slightly lower peak.

[penbeast0]

I'm going to throw in a vote here for Walt Frazier, if I'm allowed to as a new poster - I'm assuming this isn't like the top-100 players of all time where you have to be approved, but if I've missed some information then I apologize.

Kidd has Frazier and just about everyone else beat as far as longevity goes, but I don't think Kidd's peak approaches the havoc Frazier was capable of wreaking in his prime. Every piece of film I've watched from back then shows me that Frazier was a level above most of these other candidates as far as tenacity and disruption - even when he wasn't getting steals, he was constantly doing things to blow plays up like forcing his man to pick up their dribble too soon, cutting off passing lanes, etc. I've never seen anyone else change the game from the 1 like that, and it's all the more impressive given how little contact was allowed when Frazier played compared to when Payton and Kidd played.

Gary Payton also deserves serious consideration as the only point guard ever to win a DPOY, and I think him, Frazier, and Kidd are all very close together at the top, but in my opinion Frazier takes it in the end.

I'll agree that Payton and Frazier are the most disruptive to a PG dominant offense; Kidd adds a defensive rebounding element that the others can't match, extra longevity, and was burned less because he just didn't play as aggressively defensively (though Frazier was deceptive, changing his style between laying back and gambling; Payton was pretty much sheer aggression). I haven't voted because I don't have a strong, clear opinion but I'm enjoying the debate.

[Gibson22]

I think we can move on to the #2 spot

[LA Bird]

Out of curiosity, where did you get the on/off date for '99?

Reverse engineered using data from NBA.com. The precision may sometimes be off by 0.1 points per 100 possession due to rounding errors but the formula should be accurate on full season on/off back to 1998.

I didn't think they had any data on NBA.com going back further than just a few years ago. Can you provide a link to the data you're referring to?

On/off stats go back to 2008 but the plus minus stats for individual players are available from 1997. There is a bug in the NBA database for the 1997 season though so only from 1998 onwards is the recreated on/off stats reliable.

BTW, do you want to start the #2 thread? Kidd has a clear lead for this one at 8 vs 3 (Frazier)

[Gibson22]

The new thread is up!

[Bwelc679]

Sorry to bump an old thread but I am always lurking for opinions on the all time greats and this post came across my computer when researching Nate McMillan. I am loving the information I get from these forums and bumping an old thread has always been something that Ive found to generate good discussion and reevaluating previous takes. That being said......

I would have to agree that Kidd is the number one defensive point guard of all time. I would make the argument that if you played Nate McMillan for equal minutes or even Alvin Robertson's (short peak but absolute ball hawk) then they would be more disruptive to the opposing teams point guard (especially useful if playing the likes of Damian Lillard or Kyrie Archetype) because they have superior on ball skills and can cause on ball turnovers with their full court man to man pressure. As we all know, to be considered the greatest you have to be able to stay on the court otherwise your talents will waste away on the bench. Nate and Alvin don't have the offensive value to warrant playing them heavy minutes so Kidd is going to have more opportunities and rightfully so. The other reason I lean towards Kidd is due to what so many others have pointed out already: off ball disruption and help defense. Kidd was not notorious for making stupid risks which others (Alvin) with high steal counts could be baited into. The advanced stats DRAPM and his teams defensive ratings were elite. He had the size that would make him a force in any era and the same basketball IQ you would find from someone like Larry Bird with his ability to know where the ball was going before it got there. You take all these things into consideration AND THEN throw in the fact that he was the best defensive rebounder at his position (during his era) and it's hard not to give him the spot. If I had to get one stop at the end of the game then I will choose Nate McMillan (that's assuming Tony Allen is guarding the 2 guard) but for the longevity of an entire game Kidd is number 1.

Quick shot out to Jerry West and Frazier. I wholeheartedly believe that Jerry West is the second best 2 guard of all time after Jordan and a major part of that is his defense. He was an absolute pest who had the same competitive ferociousness as MJ and was also an incredible athlete. I am way too young to give a detailed analysis or take on Wests or Clyde's defense but from their reputation and the small amount I have seen, I don't have any reason to believe they couldn't be the number 1 player for this discussion.

[itsxtray]

Sorry to bump an old thread but I am always lurking for opinions on the all time greats and this post came across my computer when researching Nate McMillan. I am loving the information I get from these forums and bumping an old thread has always been something that Ive found to generate good discussion and reevaluating previous takes. That being said......

I would have to agree that Kidd is the number one defensive point guard of all time. I would make the argument that if you played Nate McMillan for equal minutes or even Alvin Robertson's (short peak but absolute ball hawk) then they would be more disruptive to the opposing teams point guard (especially useful if playing the likes of Damian Lillard or Kyrie Archetype) because they have superior on ball skills and can cause on ball turnovers with their full court man to man pressure. As we all know, to be considered the greatest you have to be able to stay on the court otherwise your talents will waste away on the bench. Nate and Alvin don't have the offensive value to warrant playing them heavy minutes so Kidd is going to have more opportunities and rightfully so. The other reason I lean towards Kidd is due to what so many others have pointed out already: off ball disruption and help defense. Kidd was not notorious for making stupid risks which others (Alvin) with high steal counts could be baited into. The advanced stats DRAPM and his teams defensive ratings were elite. He had the size that would make him a force in any era and the same basketball IQ you would find from someone like Larry Bird with his ability to know where the ball was going before it got there. You take all these things into consideration AND THEN throw in the fact that he was the best defensive rebounder at his position (during his era) and it's hard not to give him the spot. If I had to get one stop at the end of the game then I will choose Nate McMillan (that's assuming Tony Allen is guarding the 2 guard) but for the longevity of an entire game Kidd is number 1.

Quick shot out to Jerry West and Frazier. I wholeheartedly believe that Jerry West is the second best 2 guard of all time after Jordan and a major part of that is his defense. He was an absolute pest who had the same competitive ferociousness as MJ and was also an incredible athlete. I am way too young to give a detailed analysis or take on Wests or Clyde's defense but from their reputation and the small amount I have seen, I don't have any reason to believe they couldn't be the number 1 player for this discussion.

For your enjoyment:

Top 100 teams of the shotclock era:
https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=85943319#p85943319

10 greatest defenders at each position:
https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1792345