We love Franz but are we underrating him still?

[purpleswordfish]

I don't think he's underrated by Magic fans. The general consensus on this board is that he's untouchable in trades, along with Banchero. Which is fair, he's a valuable part of the team. I do think this year could be another improvement as a lot of players tend to take form their third year.

Now, people outside of the Magic fanbase might underrate him a bit. But, I'd chalk that up to the Magic being a non-playoff team and the lack of national coverage that comes with that.

[The-Stallion70]

We are kind of fairly rating FWagner, overrating Banchero and underrating WCJ imo.

don't understand this one....what is this based off of?

Paolo's efficiency was not good last year. I really don't think it's something to worry about because he was a rookie leading the team in usage but in terms of measuring winning impact I think he and Franz were probably about even.

[zaymon]

We are kind of fairly rating FWagner, overrating Banchero and underrating WCJ imo.

don't understand this one....what is this based off of?

Banchero has great potential but his impact last season was not close to Franz. Even more obvious when you watched World Cup.

[KillMonger]

We are kind of fairly rating FWagner, overrating Banchero and underrating WCJ imo.

don't understand this one....what is this based off of?

Banchero has great potential but his impact last season was not close to Franz. Even more obvious when you watched World Cup.

Impact was negligible to me, I don't think it's fair to banchero to compare him to a sophomore Franz he is more further along which he's supposed to be. It's hard to compare world cup as well, Franz has been in that German national pipeline since he was in his teens. Banchero just decided to join team USA and he's the youngest so he's the low man on the totem. Plus Kerr is a whole issue in it of itself. People tend to forget that paolo was a rookie, he wasn't efficient but which high usage rookie was efficient? I think Franz is underrated and paolo is rated just fine

Sent from the phone in my hands

[basketballRob]

I think Paolo and Franz both will be plus players this season. It's just a natural progression for scorers like Paolo to figure out how to be more efficient in the first few seasons.

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[KillMonger]

I think both paolo and Franz will bring back valuable experience from FIBA. Love the increase in aggression from Franz because I've felt he can be a bit too unselfish. Loved what paolo showed defensively, also really liked that he showed no ego and was ready and willing to play any role required. Also liked that he displayed some elements of a big man, the short roll. All bigs should have a short roll game, having it in paolos bag will help him. I've said it before we're spoiled, we got two guys we can look forward to growing and possibly becoming stars in the league.

Sent from the phone in my hands

[Bensational]

The franchise has franchise guys who are bringing their own culture of winning. Paolo went to the NCAA finals with Duke and now Franz (and Mo) has lead his national team to a world championship. It’s only a matter of time until that materialises in Orlando.

[eyriq]

We are kind of fairly rating FWagner, overrating Banchero and underrating WCJ imo.

don't understand this one....what is this based off of?

Banchero has great potential but his impact last season was not close to Franz. Even more obvious when you watched World Cup.

I don't really get this argument. The consensus was that he made the biggest impact on winning, looking at our sweater vests point system. There's nothing clear about Franz being better than Paolo. Paolo was a clear number one option. Franz was the first chair of the "score by committee" second option approach we took to find offense behind Paolo. Paolo single-handedly transformed our offense into one that gets to the line more than the opposition.

[SOUL]

don't understand this one....what is this based off of?

Banchero has great potential but his impact last season was not close to Franz. Even more obvious when you watched World Cup.

I don't really get this argument. The consensus was that he made the biggest impact on winning, looking at our sweater vests point system. There's nothing clear about Franz being better than Paolo. Paolo was a clear number one option. Franz was the first chair of the "score by committee" second option approach we took to find offense behind Paolo. Paolo single-handedly transformed our offense into one that gets to the line more than the opposition.

I don't think Paolo is overrated too much by our own fans (maybe by particular posters who think he's already Tatum), but there's no way you can equate sweater vests as most impact lol. They basically represent box score numbers and can be heavily influenced by bias as well. And doesn't count any of the losses. Playing better in wins doesn't mean bigger impact in playing winning basketball overall, because a player can technically play extremely high winning basketball in close losses if the rest of his team is sucking.

Advanced stats all clearly favor Franz and for good reason - he's a really good player in his 2nd year. Rookies 99% of the time do not have great impact. No amount of sweater vests will change this

I also just think you have a blind spot for rookies and their effect on the team.. I go back to that poll where you think Black and Jett are winning versus established vets their first year.. they would get absolutely smoked because every rookie in the NBA outside of a select few who were 4 year college guys just kind of.. suck. Even players with great counting stats aren't having great impact, Paolo was no different.

HOWEVER... him being out there alone changes the complexity of our team when it comes to foul drawing, having a comfortable ball handling big and someone teams have to plan against where he enables other guys to play their roles better.. but as far as his play alone, as promising as it was.. was lower than guys like WCJ, Franz and even Fultz, just in terms of offensive and defensive impact. I have no doubt he can and will be a number one option and had a lot on his plate.. but it's sort of like a rite of passage for rookies to not have great advanced stats.

[zaymon]

Banchero has great potential but his impact last season was not close to Franz. Even more obvious when you watched World Cup.

I don't really get this argument. The consensus was that he made the biggest impact on winning, looking at our sweater vests point system. There's nothing clear about Franz being better than Paolo. Paolo was a clear number one option. Franz was the first chair of the "score by committee" second option approach we took to find offense behind Paolo. Paolo single-handedly transformed our offense into one that gets to the line more than the opposition.

I don't think Paolo is overrated too much by our own fans (maybe by particular posters who think he's already Tatum), but there's no way you can equate sweater vests as most impact lol. They basically represent box score numbers and can be heavily influenced by bias as well. And doesn't count any of the losses. Playing better in wins doesn't mean bigger impact in playing winning basketball overall, because a player can technically play extremely high winning basketball in close losses if the rest of his team is sucking.

Advanced stats all clearly favor Franz and for good reason - he's a really good player in his 2nd year. Rookies 99% of the time do not have great impact. No amount of sweater vests will change this

I also just think you have a blind spot for rookies and their effect on the team.. I go back to that poll where you think Black and Jett are winning versus established vets their first year.. they would get absolutely smoked because every rookie in the NBA outside of a select few who were 4 year college guys just kind of.. suck. Even players with great counting stats aren't having great impact, Paolo was no different.

HOWEVER... him being out there alone changes the complexity of our team when it comes to foul drawing, having a comfortable ball handling big and someone teams have to plan against where he enables other guys to play their roles better.. but as far as his play alone, as promising as it was.. was lower than guys like WCJ, Franz and even Fultz, just in terms of offensive and defensive impact. I have no doubt he can and will be a number one option and had a lot on his plate.. but it's sort of like a rite of passage for rookies to not have great advanced stats.

Exactly this. I am very high on Paolo, i was one of the few who said he should be selected first, but lets not act he is a surefire number one option. Maybe he will be, maybe he will not. Right now he is not good enough and Franz had more impactful rookie year imo.

[pepe1991]

Wagner is Magic best player and has positive impact on court.
Banchero provides some gravity, but his rookie version wasn't "net positive" player. Granted, that's normal for a rookie.


But if you ignore fact he is rookie, and judge him as any other player, regardless of experience
20 ppg on 42,7% FG, 30% for 3 and 52,9% TS ( just 46,5% eFG) while taking 16 shots a game to average 20 ppg would put him in same scoring category as some Monta Ellise/Brandon Jennings/ Knicks-Melo landscape.

*innefficient chucker* box.

Ofc he is rookie so you give him more benefits of a doubt, expecting him to be way more efficient than last year.

[MoMM]

The franchise has franchise guys who are bringing their own culture of winning. Paolo went to the NCAA finals with Duke and now Franz (and Mo) has lead his national team to a world championship. It’s only a matter of time until that materialises in Orlando.

2030

[basketballRob]

I don't really get this argument. The consensus was that he made the biggest impact on winning, looking at our sweater vests point system. There's nothing clear about Franz being better than Paolo. Paolo was a clear number one option. Franz was the first chair of the "score by committee" second option approach we took to find offense behind Paolo. Paolo single-handedly transformed our offense into one that gets to the line more than the opposition.

I don't think Paolo is overrated too much by our own fans (maybe by particular posters who think he's already Tatum), but there's no way you can equate sweater vests as most impact lol. They basically represent box score numbers and can be heavily influenced by bias as well. And doesn't count any of the losses. Playing better in wins doesn't mean bigger impact in playing winning basketball overall, because a player can technically play extremely high winning basketball in close losses if the rest of his team is sucking.

Advanced stats all clearly favor Franz and for good reason - he's a really good player in his 2nd year. Rookies 99% of the time do not have great impact. No amount of sweater vests will change this

I also just think you have a blind spot for rookies and their effect on the team.. I go back to that poll where you think Black and Jett are winning versus established vets their first year.. they would get absolutely smoked because every rookie in the NBA outside of a select few who were 4 year college guys just kind of.. suck. Even players with great counting stats aren't having great impact, Paolo was no different.

HOWEVER... him being out there alone changes the complexity of our team when it comes to foul drawing, having a comfortable ball handling big and someone teams have to plan against where he enables other guys to play their roles better.. but as far as his play alone, as promising as it was.. was lower than guys like WCJ, Franz and even Fultz, just in terms of offensive and defensive impact. I have no doubt he can and will be a number one option and had a lot on his plate.. but it's sort of like a rite of passage for rookies to not have great advanced stats.

Exactly this. I am very high on Paolo, i was one of the few who said he should be selected first, but lets not act he is a surefire number one option. Maybe he will be, maybe he will not. Right now he is not good enough and Franz had more impactful rookie year imo.

I believe Paolo was a little better than Franz in his rookie season. If we're just comparing both players' rookie seasons.

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[eyriq]

Banchero has great potential but his impact last season was not close to Franz. Even more obvious when you watched World Cup.

I don't really get this argument. The consensus was that he made the biggest impact on winning, looking at our sweater vests point system. There's nothing clear about Franz being better than Paolo. Paolo was a clear number one option. Franz was the first chair of the "score by committee" second option approach we took to find offense behind Paolo. Paolo single-handedly transformed our offense into one that gets to the line more than the opposition.

I don't think Paolo is overrated too much by our own fans (maybe by particular posters who think he's already Tatum), but there's no way you can equate sweater vests as most impact lol. They basically represent box score numbers and can be heavily influenced by bias as well. And doesn't count any of the losses. Playing better in wins doesn't mean bigger impact in playing winning basketball overall, because a player can technically play extremely high winning basketball in close losses if the rest of his team is sucking.

Advanced stats all clearly favor Franz and for good reason - he's a really good player in his 2nd year. Rookies 99% of the time do not have great impact. No amount of sweater vests will change this

I also just think you have a blind spot for rookies and their effect on the team.. I go back to that poll where you think Black and Jett are winning versus established vets their first year.. they would get absolutely smoked because every rookie in the NBA outside of a select few who were 4 year college guys just kind of.. suck. Even players with great counting stats aren't having great impact, Paolo was no different.

HOWEVER... him being out there alone changes the complexity of our team when it comes to foul drawing, having a comfortable ball handling big and someone teams have to plan against where he enables other guys to play their roles better.. but as far as his play alone, as promising as it was.. was lower than guys like WCJ, Franz and even Fultz, just in terms of offensive and defensive impact. I have no doubt he can and will be a number one option and had a lot on his plate.. but it's sort of like a rite of passage for rookies to not have great advanced stats.

I know sweater vests are for fun but they are fan votes who watch the game (for the most part). They are capturing some of the eye ball test from games we win, which is actually a really valuable indicator of player impact IMO. Paolo passes the eye ball test as our best player is the main point.

Regarding rookies, I'm on record that rookie Black will be better than 4th year Cole. Lots of rookies turn out better than one dimensional role players still in their rookie deals.

[SOUL]

I know sweater vests are for fun but they are fan votes who watch the game (for the most part). They are capturing some of the eye ball test from games we win, which is actually a really valuable indicator of player impact IMO. Paolo passes the eye ball test as our best player is the main point.

Regarding rookies, I'm on record that rookie Black will be better than 4th year Cole. Lots of rookies turn out better than one dimensional role players still in their rookie deals.

Well that's an entirely different thing you're arguing and isn't necessarily wrong, just the whole Banchero had more impact thing isn't necessarily true. A lot of it is symbiotic though where the gravity of Banchero's strengths opens things up for Franz and others, etc.

Cole was tied for our 3rd most impactful guy last year in regards to win shares (tied with Fultz) - Franz was 1st, WCJ 2nd.. Banchero 6th. 45-36-90 even as a microwave bench scorer is him finally playing his role right. Black will need the minutes and two-way status with efficiency to be anything close to being better for the team his rookie year.

I think the ceiling of Black is way higher, just don't think his impact will be that much this year given his role and inability to shoot yet. Cole has his warts defensively and is the worst defender of the 4 guards, but a team starved for offensive creation and shooting is going to be leaning on Cole for a lot of offense this year.

[davey_wavy]

Just took a beating on the GB for saying he’s better than Scottie lol. Never realized how upset Raps fans get. Is that a Canadian thing?

[Audi]

Just took a beating on the GB for saying he’s better than Scottie lol. Never realized how upset Raps fans get. Is that a Canadian thing?

I mean - it's all they have.

[SOUL]

Just took a beating on the GB for saying he’s better than Scottie lol. Never realized how upset Raps fans get. Is that a Canadian thing?

Every fan is defensive if you just randomly make a thread calling them out lol

[tooler]

I’ll say it again - I’m betting Paolo takes a step back before he takes a leap forward. The only hope is he already went through some of that in his rookie season.

[RookieStar]

I’ll say it again - I’m betting Paolo takes a step back before he takes a leap forward. The only hope is he already went through some of that in his rookie season.

He already took a step back....we all saw it in the world cup. Now it's time for him to move forward.lol