Anthony Edwards Thread: Part Two (Read First Post)

[younggunsmn]

Nice, and I loved the Craig Hodges reference!

No doubt Reaves is a decent player, but what annoys me is that, like Hodges, his high FG% is only possible because defenses are geared to stop the better players, and may get him some open looks.

This is one of the main reasons why I always hated the "Empty stats" derogatory term that gets thrown at star players on bad teams so often. I agree that certain players can inflate their numbers on bad teams to degrees and I agree that some players are more impactful than others but a players putting up big numbers, regardless of the team, is still doing an impressive feat.

You can say those are empty stats because the team they are on sucks or they are a ball hog, or whatever, but at the same time, every team in the league knows, that players is going to taking those shots, every team is gameplaning to stop that player from taking those shots, and they can't.

People said it about Love, they are saying it about Towns, they say it about Westbrook now too. You may not like those players for whatever reason but you can't deny that they are gifted players who at one time carried an entire offense on their backs.

Bringing up the old empty stats argument. No such thing. Every basket scored is two points. Every rebound ends an opponents possession or extends your own. Every steal, assist they all matter. The team that wins the game is the team that aggregates the most stats.

"Empty Stats" is a term used for players who accumulate stats to the detriment of their team winning.

HOW are they putting up the stats? Do they come in the flow of the offense or via Hero ball where you are taking all the shots, disregarding your coach's playcalling and gameplan, and your teammates are cold and out of rythym?
Are you chasing rebounds to the detriment of team defense and failing to close out on shooters or help your teammates?
Are you unwilling to play in a defensive scheme where you play up high up on the floor because it makes it harder for you to get your rebounds? Do you hunt steals and put yourself out of position constantly or do they come from quick hands and anticipation while playing good positional defense?
Did that rebound you grabbed come from your team forcing a difficult shot or were you just lucky someone missed a wide open one?

Stats aren't perfect. There aren't any stats for a rebound a teammate grabs because you boxed out your man.
Or for an assist that didn't happen because a teammate missed an open shot.
Or especially for an opponent scoring a basket because YOU were out of position, had a lack of effort, or failed to box out your man.
+/- hits all 5 players no matter whose fault it was a basket was given up or the skill level of the 5 guys on the floor for the opponent.

If stats were all that mattered, Enes Freedom (Kanter) would still be playing 30+ minutes for someone.

[younggunsmn]

Ant is not an efficient player right now (he is also only 21, two years younger than Reaves). He definitely needs to improve in efficiency, see the floor at the macro level, and contribute without the ball on offense. He is operating at a level higher than Reaves right now.

Ant is not at all an inefficient player right now,
His shooting percentages are good and turnovers compared to his usage are actually pretty low.
He's not at Lebron-level yet but he is a little above average, and when you consider the volume and the fact that he creates most of his own shots, I think he's well above average.
Next step is get the FT% over 80 and draw more fouls.

Reaves probably hasn't even seen a double team yet. Teams gameplan to stop Ant and throw everything they have at him.
Reaves is 2 tiers below Ant. He just plays in LA.

[KGdaBom]

This is one of the main reasons why I always hated the "Empty stats" derogatory term that gets thrown at star players on bad teams so often. I agree that certain players can inflate their numbers on bad teams to degrees and I agree that some players are more impactful than others but a players putting up big numbers, regardless of the team, is still doing an impressive feat.

You can say those are empty stats because the team they are on sucks or they are a ball hog, or whatever, but at the same time, every team in the league knows, that players is going to taking those shots, every team is gameplaning to stop that player from taking those shots, and they can't.

People said it about Love, they are saying it about Towns, they say it about Westbrook now too. You may not like those players for whatever reason but you can't deny that they are gifted players who at one time carried an entire offense on their backs.

Bringing up the old empty stats argument. No such thing. Every basket scored is two points. Every rebound ends an opponents possession or extends your own. Every steal, assist they all matter. The team that wins the game is the team that aggregates the most stats.

"Empty Stats" is a term used for players who accumulate stats to the detriment of their team winning.

HOW are they putting up the stats? Do they come in the flow of the offense or via Hero ball where you are taking all the shots, disregarding your coach's playcalling and gameplan, and your teammates are cold and out of rythym?
Are you chasing rebounds to the detriment of team defense and failing to close out on shooters or help your teammates?
Are you unwilling to play in a defensive scheme where you play up high up on the floor because it makes it harder for you to get your rebounds? Do you hunt steals and put yourself out of position constantly or do they come from quick hands and anticipation while playing good positional defense?
Did that rebound you grabbed come from your team forcing a difficult shot or were you just lucky someone missed a wide open one?

Stats aren't perfect. There aren't any stats for a rebound a teammate grabs because you boxed out your man.
Or for an assist that didn't happen because a teammate missed an open shot.
Or especially for an opponent scoring a basket because YOU were out of position, had a lack of effort, or failed to box out your man.
+/- hits all 5 players no matter whose fault it was a basket was given up or the skill level of the 5 guys on the floor for the opponent.

If stats were all that mattered, Enes Freedom (Kanter) would still be playing 30+ minutes for someone.

At the end of the game stats are all that matters. The team with the better stats wins every single time. There has never been a game where the team with the better stats has not won.

The stats are never empty. Never. Stats don't tell the whole story of every player on the court, but a basket or assist ALWAYS counts 2 or 3 points. ALWAYS. A higher FG% or FT% always results in more points for the team than a lower FG% or lower FT%. A Rebound or steal always gains possession for your team. There has NEVER been an empty stat.

The negative things you talked about will be reflected in the stats. A higher FG% for the opponent. A lower rebounding rate for your own team. A lower FG% by your team missing shots on what could have been an assist for the passer. A lower +/- for everybody on the court.

[m2002brian]

Bringing up the old empty stats argument. No such thing. Every basket scored is two points. Every rebound ends an opponents possession or extends your own. Every steal, assist they all matter. The team that wins the game is the team that aggregates the most stats.

"Empty Stats" is a term used for players who accumulate stats to the detriment of their team winning.

HOW are they putting up the stats? Do they come in the flow of the offense or via Hero ball where you are taking all the shots, disregarding your coach's playcalling and gameplan, and your teammates are cold and out of rythym?
Are you chasing rebounds to the detriment of team defense and failing to close out on shooters or help your teammates?
Are you unwilling to play in a defensive scheme where you play up high up on the floor because it makes it harder for you to get your rebounds? Do you hunt steals and put yourself out of position constantly or do they come from quick hands and anticipation while playing good positional defense?
Did that rebound you grabbed come from your team forcing a difficult shot or were you just lucky someone missed a wide open one?

Stats aren't perfect. There aren't any stats for a rebound a teammate grabs because you boxed out your man.
Or for an assist that didn't happen because a teammate missed an open shot.
Or especially for an opponent scoring a basket because YOU were out of position, had a lack of effort, or failed to box out your man.
+/- hits all 5 players no matter whose fault it was a basket was given up or the skill level of the 5 guys on the floor for the opponent.

If stats were all that mattered, Enes Freedom (Kanter) would still be playing 30+ minutes for someone.

At the end of the game stats are all that matters. The team with the better stats wins every single time. There has never been a game where the team with the better stats has not won.

The stats are never empty. Never. Stats don't tell the whole story of every player on the court, but a basket or assist ALWAYS counts 2 or 3 points. ALWAYS. A higher FG% or FT% always results in more points for the team than a lower FG% or lower FT%. A Rebound or steal always gains possession for your team. There has NEVER been an empty stat.

The negative things you talked about will be reflected in the stats. A higher FG% for the opponent. A lower rebounding rate for your own team. A lower FG% by your team missing shots on what could have been an assist for the passer. A lower +/- for everybody on the court.

A few things can skew the stats but most of what you said applies.

A lower fg% but higher possessions/shots could still = winning. If you can generate more possessions off of good defense and also play more efficiently on offense, that’s a recipe for an incredibly successful team. Which is why it’s often said that great defense leads to easy baskets (more efficient shots / layups).

[TimberKat]

This may belong to its own conversation thread. One example of "empty stat" or incomplete stat is Westbrook's triple doubles. If MJ1, Bird, KG, MJ2, or Jokic gets a triple double it's win. I don't have the stats in front of me, but Westbrook's triple doubles must have the lowest winning percentage in NBA history.

[Colbinii]

This may belong to its own conversation thread. One example of "empty stat" or incomplete stat is Westbrook's triple doubles. If MJ1, Bird, KG, MJ2, or Jokic gets a triple double it's win. I don't have the stats in front of me, but Westbrook's triple doubles must have the lowest winning percentage in NBA history.

But did Westbrook have **** rosters around him in 2017-2020?

[thinktank]

This thread is getting derailed by a different and low quality thread.

[Klomp]

Read on Twitter

[shrink]

Anthony Edwards‘ ascension from young star to potential superstar was obvious during the 2023 FIBA World Cup, though one of his most impressive moments came off the court, Yahoo Sports’ Jake Fischer opines. Fischer writes that Edwards was asked a question about which teammate he’d rather trade: Karl-Anthony Towns or Rudy Gobert. After initially ignoring it, Edwards circled back to the question. “Neither one, man,” Edwards said. “I like all my teammates. I love them. They my brothers. I wouldn’t trade neither one of them.” In his journey to superstardom, Fischer writes, Edwards’ leadership shined this summer.

What a disrespectful question. I’m glad Ant didn’t flub the answer.

[younggunsmn]

Bringing up the old empty stats argument. No such thing. Every basket scored is two points. Every rebound ends an opponents possession or extends your own. Every steal, assist they all matter. The team that wins the game is the team that aggregates the most stats.

"Empty Stats" is a term used for players who accumulate stats to the detriment of their team winning.

HOW are they putting up the stats? Do they come in the flow of the offense or via Hero ball where you are taking all the shots, disregarding your coach's playcalling and gameplan, and your teammates are cold and out of rythym?
Are you chasing rebounds to the detriment of team defense and failing to close out on shooters or help your teammates?
Are you unwilling to play in a defensive scheme where you play up high up on the floor because it makes it harder for you to get your rebounds? Do you hunt steals and put yourself out of position constantly or do they come from quick hands and anticipation while playing good positional defense?
Did that rebound you grabbed come from your team forcing a difficult shot or were you just lucky someone missed a wide open one?

Stats aren't perfect. There aren't any stats for a rebound a teammate grabs because you boxed out your man.
Or for an assist that didn't happen because a teammate missed an open shot.
Or especially for an opponent scoring a basket because YOU were out of position, had a lack of effort, or failed to box out your man.
+/- hits all 5 players no matter whose fault it was a basket was given up or the skill level of the 5 guys on the floor for the opponent.

If stats were all that mattered, Enes Freedom (Kanter) would still be playing 30+ minutes for someone.

At the end of the game stats are all that matters. The team with the better stats wins every single time. There has never been a game where the team with the better stats has not won.

The stats are never empty. Never. Stats don't tell the whole story of every player on the court, but a basket or assist ALWAYS counts 2 or 3 points. ALWAYS. A higher FG% or FT% always results in more points for the team than a lower FG% or lower FT%. A Rebound or steal always gains possession for your team. There has NEVER been an empty stat.

The negative things you talked about will be reflected in the stats. A higher FG% for the opponent. A lower rebounding rate for your own team. A lower FG% by your team missing shots on what could have been an assist for the passer. A lower +/- for everybody on the court.

You are conflating TEAM stats with INDIVIDUAL stats.

A bad teammate/Low BBIQ player will do things that DO NOT show up in his individual box score that bring the entire team down.
We had a top 10 offense in 21-2022, and with KAT and Gobert on the court together in '22-23 we were dead last.
With just Gobert we were in the bottom third of the league.
Can you tell me exactly where that shows up in Gobert's stat line?
Or all the tough shots KAT and Ant have to take because the paint is constantly packed as a result?

Fantasy basketball does not equal winning.
How many random players have you had over the years putting up big numbers on bad teams helping your fantasy teams the last couple months of the year?

[KGdaBom]

"Empty Stats" is a term used for players who accumulate stats to the detriment of their team winning.

HOW are they putting up the stats? Do they come in the flow of the offense or via Hero ball where you are taking all the shots, disregarding your coach's playcalling and gameplan, and your teammates are cold and out of rythym?
Are you chasing rebounds to the detriment of team defense and failing to close out on shooters or help your teammates?
Are you unwilling to play in a defensive scheme where you play up high up on the floor because it makes it harder for you to get your rebounds? Do you hunt steals and put yourself out of position constantly or do they come from quick hands and anticipation while playing good positional defense?
Did that rebound you grabbed come from your team forcing a difficult shot or were you just lucky someone missed a wide open one?

Stats aren't perfect. There aren't any stats for a rebound a teammate grabs because you boxed out your man.
Or for an assist that didn't happen because a teammate missed an open shot.
Or especially for an opponent scoring a basket because YOU were out of position, had a lack of effort, or failed to box out your man.
+/- hits all 5 players no matter whose fault it was a basket was given up or the skill level of the 5 guys on the floor for the opponent.

If stats were all that mattered, Enes Freedom (Kanter) would still be playing 30+ minutes for someone.

At the end of the game stats are all that matters. The team with the better stats wins every single time. There has never been a game where the team with the better stats has not won.

The stats are never empty. Never. Stats don't tell the whole story of every player on the court, but a basket or assist ALWAYS counts 2 or 3 points. ALWAYS. A higher FG% or FT% always results in more points for the team than a lower FG% or lower FT%. A Rebound or steal always gains possession for your team. There has NEVER been an empty stat.

The negative things you talked about will be reflected in the stats. A higher FG% for the opponent. A lower rebounding rate for your own team. A lower FG% by your team missing shots on what could have been an assist for the passer. A lower +/- for everybody on the court.

You are conflating TEAM stats with INDIVIDUAL stats.

A bad teammate/Low BBIQ player will do things that DO NOT show up in his individual box score that bring the entire team down.
We had a top 10 offense in 21-2022, and with KAT and Gobert on the court together in '22-23 we were dead last.
With just Gobert we were in the bottom third of the league.
Can you tell me exactly where that shows up in Gobert's stat line?
Or all the tough shots KAT and Ant have to take because the paint is constantly packed as a result?

Fantasy basketball does not equal winning.
How many random players have you had over the years putting up big numbers on bad teams helping your fantasy teams the last couple months of the year?

I'm not conflating anything. You are way overestimating what I am saying. I am saying nothing more and nothing less than no stat is ever empty. Any stat has an effect on winning or losing the game. There is no such thing as an empty stat.

I think what you are trying to argue with me is that some players stats particularly points/rebounds and assists can make a player appear better or worse than he really is due to other factors. I have nothing to say about that subject. I will let you address it to your hearts content. My point is that no stat is ever empty.

[Note30]

At the end of the game stats are all that matters. The team with the better stats wins every single time. There has never been a game where the team with the better stats has not won.

The stats are never empty. Never. Stats don't tell the whole story of every player on the court, but a basket or assist ALWAYS counts 2 or 3 points. ALWAYS. A higher FG% or FT% always results in more points for the team than a lower FG% or lower FT%. A Rebound or steal always gains possession for your team. There has NEVER been an empty stat.

The negative things you talked about will be reflected in the stats. A higher FG% for the opponent. A lower rebounding rate for your own team. A lower FG% by your team missing shots on what could have been an assist for the passer. A lower +/- for everybody on the court.

You are conflating TEAM stats with INDIVIDUAL stats.

A bad teammate/Low BBIQ player will do things that DO NOT show up in his individual box score that bring the entire team down.
We had a top 10 offense in 21-2022, and with KAT and Gobert on the court together in '22-23 we were dead last.
With just Gobert we were in the bottom third of the league.
Can you tell me exactly where that shows up in Gobert's stat line?
Or all the tough shots KAT and Ant have to take because the paint is constantly packed as a result?

Fantasy basketball does not equal winning.
How many random players have you had over the years putting up big numbers on bad teams helping your fantasy teams the last couple months of the year?

I'm not conflating anything. You are way overestimating what I am saying. I am saying nothing more and nothing less than no stat is ever empty. Any stat has an effect on winning or losing the game. There is no such thing as an empty stat.

I think what you are trying to argue with me is that some players stats particularly points/rebounds and assists can make a player appear better or worse than he really is due to other factors. I have nothing to say about that subject. I will let you address it to your hearts content. My point is that no stat is ever empty.

No offense man, but you're super pedantic.

I don't know why, but it's really hard to read through a thread you derail or even argue with you on one.

I'm not saying you're doing it on purpose, but maybe just something to consider is that you can look at the bigger picture of things before going down a rabbit hole and making a thread 2-3 pages longer about something that most of the time seems like a misunderstanding between you and another poster. It's happened here, and it happens when I've posted with you as well.

[KGdaBom]

You are conflating TEAM stats with INDIVIDUAL stats.

A bad teammate/Low BBIQ player will do things that DO NOT show up in his individual box score that bring the entire team down.
We had a top 10 offense in 21-2022, and with KAT and Gobert on the court together in '22-23 we were dead last.
With just Gobert we were in the bottom third of the league.
Can you tell me exactly where that shows up in Gobert's stat line?
Or all the tough shots KAT and Ant have to take because the paint is constantly packed as a result?

Fantasy basketball does not equal winning.
How many random players have you had over the years putting up big numbers on bad teams helping your fantasy teams the last couple months of the year?

I'm not conflating anything. You are way overestimating what I am saying. I am saying nothing more and nothing less than no stat is ever empty. Any stat has an effect on winning or losing the game. There is no such thing as an empty stat.

I think what you are trying to argue with me is that some players stats particularly points/rebounds and assists can make a player appear better or worse than he really is due to other factors. I have nothing to say about that subject. I will let you address it to your hearts content. My point is that no stat is ever empty.

No offense man, but you're super pedantic.

I don't know why, but it's really hard to read through a thread you derail or even argue with you on one.

I'm not saying you're doing it on purpose, but maybe just something to consider is that you can look at the bigger picture of things before going down a rabbit hole and making a thread 2-3 pages longer about something that most of the time seems like a misunderstanding between you and another poster. It's happened here, and it happens when I've posted with you as well.

Saying empty stats really annoys me. I'm not going to let it go unchallenged. As I have IMO clearly pointed out there is no such thing.

By the way I guess I'm going to be pedantic about your using the word pedantic. Here is the definition.

Pedantic is an insulting word used to describe someone who annoys others by correcting small errors, caring too much about minor details, or emphasizing their own expertise especially in some narrow or boring subject matter

You start out saying no offense, but the first thing about using the word pedantic is it's an insult. To me saying empty stats is a large error and a large detail. We disagree.

[Biff Cooper]

For some reason, I get KGdaBom and younggunsmn names mixed up and can't differentiate them as different people. This thread is a healthy reminder to myself that they are different.

[KGdaBom]

For some reason, I get KGdaBom and younggunsmn names mixed up and can't differentiate them as different people. This thread is a healthy reminder to myself that they are different.

I like younggunsmn. He's a good poster. He tends to take a more negative/realistic view IHO. I tend to take a more positive/realistic view IMO.

[Klomp]

Anthony Edwards‘ ascension from young star to potential superstar was obvious during the 2023 FIBA World Cup, though one of his most impressive moments came off the court, Yahoo Sports’ Jake Fischer opines. Fischer writes that Edwards was asked a question about which teammate he’d rather trade: Karl-Anthony Towns or Rudy Gobert. After initially ignoring it, Edwards circled back to the question. “Neither one, man,” Edwards said. “I like all my teammates. I love them. They my brothers. I wouldn’t trade neither one of them.” In his journey to superstardom, Fischer writes, Edwards’ leadership shined this summer.

What a disrespectful question. I’m glad Ant didn’t flub the answer.

I just saw that clip yesterday. Not that it excuses anything, but it was an international reporter who asked. I don't know if they fully understood how disrespectful it was to ask that.

I'll see if I can find the clip.

Read on Twitter

[shrink]

Jake Fischer from Bleacher Report posted it.

[younggunsmn]

Pedantic is an insulting word used to describe someone who annoys others by correcting small errors, caring too much about minor details, or emphasizing their own expertise especially in some narrow or boring subject matter

You start out saying no offense, but the first thing about using the word pedantic is it's an insult. To me saying empty stats is a large error and a large detail. We disagree.

I mean this in the most loving way possible, this post is so rich with irony it gave me a good laugh.
This should be a meme.

We disagree on "Empty stats".
You take it to be very narrow and literal, as in zero worth.
I take it more broadly, as in stats which do not properly reflect the true value of their accumulator or more generally, his contribution to his team winning.

Counting stats were king until 10-15 years ago, and efficiency is now much more valued (correctly) around the league than it used to be.
But I also make the argument that there are a lot of things that still can't be properly accounted for by even advanced statistics, which get less and less reliable the deeper you go.

[younggunsmn]

For some reason, I get KGdaBom and younggunsmn names mixed up and can't differentiate them as different people. This thread is a healthy reminder to myself that they are different.

I like younggunsmn. He's a good poster. He tends to take a more negative/realistic view IHO. I tend to take a more positive/realistic view IMO.

I return the compliment, I enjoy your perspective here.
I think things function best in society with both views can be freely expressed.

I've found that over my many years as a sports fan, self-inflicted, avoidable wounds are always the things that bother me the most when I watch games and follow teams.
Whether that's Rocco pulling a pitcher after 80 pitches with a shutout, Vikings calling back to back TE screens, or TImberwolves making a really really dumb and franchise-altering trade, it bother me a little more than maybe some people.

[KGdaBom]

Pedantic is an insulting word used to describe someone who annoys others by correcting small errors, caring too much about minor details, or emphasizing their own expertise especially in some narrow or boring subject matter

You start out saying no offense, but the first thing about using the word pedantic is it's an insult. To me saying empty stats is a large error and a large detail. We disagree.

I mean this in the most loving way possible, this post is so rich with irony it gave me a good laugh.
This should be a meme.

We disagree on "Empty stats".
You take it to be very narrow and literal, as in zero worth.
I take it more broadly, as in stats which do not properly reflect the true value of their accumulator or more generally, his contribution to his team winning.

Counting stats were king until 10-15 years ago, and efficiency is now much more valued (correctly) around the league than it used to be.
But I also make the argument that there are a lot of things that still can't be properly accounted for by even advanced statistics, which get less and less reliable the deeper you go.

Pedantic is a kind of fun word. I'm thinking at least 90% of the populous doesn't know what it means. I had some fun getting Pedantic about Pedantic.
I still don't think you get what I'm saying. Every stat has an influence on winning or losing a game. They're never empty. You're debating something I'm not. Can a player's stats not be the end all be all of his value to a team. Yes, but every stat he accumulates has an effect on winning or losing.