Official Scottie Barnes Thread - Part 6

[Tha Cynic]

"Higher peak potential" sounds a lot like "13 game Bargnani." It gets funny with prospects as we place a lot on their shoulders. Terence Ross was once one of the youngest players to score over 50 in a game, but like hell we should have built around him at the time. Last year Scottie improved in some areas and regressed in others. The regression parts made it challenging to give him the ball more often.

Ah, is this what your analysis tells you? That Barnes and Bargnani are similar and all the underlying stats and work on the court show you Bargnani? Or are you just making crazy statements to fit a narrative?

I mean I hated that guy and could tell from season 1 that he was going to have issues, so I'm curious if that's the sense you get from watching Barnes and the way you analyze the game of basketball.

Nah, if you bothered reading the thread you would have known that's not the direct comparison I was making, nor was I comparing him to Terrence Ross. Using a young players best games to predict the future is wrong, whereas using larger samples will give you more accurate information to base decisions off of. What narrative am I working on? That Scottie regressed as a scorer last year? Is that a tough pill to swallow?

You were the one who brought up Bargnani and Ross as comparables. I'm commenting on that. There must be a reason why you did that. Either you're making crazy statements to fit some sort of narrative or you think there's something there that's comparable. I was simply asking which it was to get a better idea of what you think of Barnes. Did you forget that he had a season that was enough to win him rookie of the year, and really if anything, maybe two players from his class had better seasons than him last season. It is pretty out there to bring up Ross and Bargnani since he has a pretty good body of work and has already shown more than either of those guys did in their entire careers

As for the pill comment (I think he stagnated, not that it makes any difference here), I mean what he does will only affect my entertainment value as a viewer. I'm already on a high now that VV is gone and the team won't be infuriating to watch. So even if Barnes becomes a bench player, I know he won't negatively affect the way the entire team plays like FVV did and that's already a plus.

[Madvillainy2004]

"Higher peak potential" sounds a lot like "13 game Bargnani." It gets funny with prospects as we place a lot on their shoulders. Terence Ross was once one of the youngest players to score over 50 in a game, but like hell we should have built around him at the time. Last year Scottie improved in some areas and regressed in others. The regression parts made it challenging to give him the ball more often.

Ah, is this what your analysis tells you? That Barnes and Bargnani are similar and all the underlying stats and work on the court show you Bargnani? Or are you just making crazy statements to fit a narrative?

I mean I hated that guy and could tell from season 1 that he was going to have issues, so I'm curious if that's the sense you get from watching Barnes and the way you analyze the game of basketball.

Nah, if you bothered reading the thread you would have known that's not the direct comparison I was making, nor was I comparing him to Terrence Ross. Using a young players best games to predict the future is wrong, whereas using larger samples will give you more accurate information to base decisions off of. What narrative am I working on? That Scottie regressed as a scorer last year? Is that a tough pill to swallow?

Apparently yes lmao like there's no way to slice 15 PPG on 52 TS% as good scoring (as a 3rd option). Especially for a guy who's scoring game is majority inside of 10 feet.

[ATLTimekeeper]

[


You were the one who brought up Bargnani and Ross as comparables. I'm commenting on that. There must be a reason why you did that. Either you're making crazy statements to fit some sort of narrative or you think there's something there that's comparable.

The reason was they were both Raptors, and so those are easy references for long-time Raptor fans to understand.

I was simply asking which it was to get a better idea of what you think of Barnes. Did you forget that he had a season that was enough to win him rookie of the year, and really if anything, maybe two players from his class had better seasons than him last season. It is pretty out there to bring up Ross and Bargnani.

No, it was in the context of the conversation. It's only out there to you because you're not following. It wasn't meant to trigger anyone.

As for the pill comment (I think he stagnated, not that it makes any difference here), I mean what he does will only affect my entertainment value as a viewer. I'm already on a high now that VV is gone and the team won't be infuriating to watch. So even if Barnes becomes a bench player, I know he won't negatively affect the way the entire team plays like FVV did and that's already a plus.

This has nothing to do with what was being discussed, though. This is something else you're feeling and want to add. I was trying to put in perspective a very specific analysis that I disagreed with, and I did that.

[tsherkin]

Apparently yes lmao like there's no way to slice 15 PPG on 52 TS% as good scoring (as a 3rd option). Especially for a guy who's scoring game is majority inside of 10 feet.

This is sort of where I'm at. As a third option with pretty good overall physical tools, even lacking advanced scoring tools, he should have done better than that and it's concerning that he did not. Not concerning enough to panac, of course, but it bears a more watchful eye on his development in that area. I don't think anyone was expecting world-beating efficiency out of a 21 year-old in his second season who was already known to be raw, of course. No 110 TS+ seasons expected and failed, right? But 57, 58% TS wouldn't have been an unreasonable ask. We'll see how it goes this season. Some guys take The Leap a little later, especially if they are very raw as is Barnes, so we'll see. Third year is usually a pretty good one, though, so there's reason for optimism.

[Spates]

Apparently yes lmao like there's no way to slice 15 PPG on 52 TS% as good scoring (as a 3rd option). Especially for a guy who's scoring game is majority inside of 10 feet.

This is sort of where I'm at. As a third option with pretty good overall physical tools, even lacking advanced scoring tools, he should have done better than that and it's concerning that he did not. Not concerning enough to panac, of course, but it bears a more watchful eye on his development in that area. I don't think anyone was expecting world-beating efficiency out of a 21 year-old in his second season who was already known to be raw, of course. No 110 TS+ seasons expected and failed, right? But 57, 58% TS wouldn't have been an unreasonable ask. We'll see how it goes this season. Some guys take The Leap a little later, especially if they are very raw as is Barnes, so we'll see. Third year is usually a pretty good one, though, so there's reason for optimism.

I appreciate that you're trying to remain balanced in your take but I think you need to cut him some slack. The Raptors were bottom 4 in shooting efficiency. Amongst the teams at the bottom you'll see pedestrian efficiency all around. Particularly among high value young players. You can look LaMelo, Rozier(?), Jaden Ivey, Jalen Green, Jabari Smith, Sochan, Vassell, etc. Nothing impressive whatsoever. Similar or worse. Let's not forget to mention that the all-stars on the team also put up pedestrian efficiency.

Why nitpick 2nd year's shooting efficiency when what he demonstrated was inline with his peers, inevitable given the team's performance, and understandable given he's more of a facilitator than scorer. And that's not to dismiss his need to be efficient.

By the nature of the my-turn-your-turn offense that we've witnessed I think it's all the more impressive that a raw sophomore was able to function as well as they did.

[tsherkin]

I appreciate that you're trying to remain balanced in your take but I think you need to cut him some slack.

I suspect you are inferring too much of my actual opinion of Barnes and not reading everything I've written, so you don't really grok my opinion, not to be rude. Most of my volume commentary here is responding to people bitching that I dare criticize him, but if you read most of what I've written, it's always couched with "but he's only 2 seasons in and is going to be only 22, so let's see what happens."

Why nitpick 2nd year's shooting efficiency when what he demonstrated was inline with his peers, inevitable given the team's performance, and understandable given he's more of a facilitator than scorer. And that's not to dismiss his need to be efficient.

Because while our spacing was garbage and we know he's raw, he was really, really bad and didn't really showcase any improvement as a scorer, even as a third option with less defensive pressure than the top two guys. That's concerning, especially with how much transition action he saw.

By the nature of the my-turn-your-turn offense that we've witnessed I think it's all the more impressive that a raw sophomore was able to function as well as they did.

I completely disagree. Of course, I don't think it's the end of the world and we'll see what happens this year, but I'm fairly weary of people giving me crap because I don't only have nice things to say about Barnes' 2nd season. He passed well, he flashed some other skills which, if he starts being an average scorer, will potentially enable him to be very useful. But developmentally, guys who are going to be very good usually show some linear improvement through their first few seasons in the league, especially if they don't have the full pressure of defensive focus on them, so it's at least a bit concerning if they don't. But again, it's really only been one year where we should have been expecting to see improvement and hadn't, so there's time and patience remains the order of the day.

It is, however, super annoying when people want to ignore what happened and only focus on the good side of things. Yes, he still has potential. Yes, he might grow into something quite good. Yes, there's the chance he pulls something like Demar and makes tiny improvements for several years and gets to a very different point from where he started, even though that's quite atypical. But we need to see that beginning, so this upcoming season is very important.

[Spates]

I appreciate that you're trying to remain balanced in your take but I think you need to cut him some slack.

I suspect you are inferring too much of my actual opinion of Barnes and not reading everything I've written, so you don't really grok my opinion, not to be rude. Most of my volume commentary here is responding to people bitching that I dare criticize him, but if you read most of what I've written, it's always couched with "but he's only 2 seasons in and is going to be only 22, so let's see what happens."

Why nitpick 2nd year's shooting efficiency when what he demonstrated was inline with his peers, inevitable given the team's performance, and understandable given he's more of a facilitator than scorer. And that's not to dismiss his need to be efficient.

Because while our spacing was garbage and we know he's raw, he was really, really bad and didn't really showcase any improvement as a scorer, even as a third option with less defensive pressure than the top two guys. That's concerning, especially with how much transition action he saw.

By the nature of the my-turn-your-turn offense that we've witnessed I think it's all the more impressive that a raw sophomore was able to function as well as they did.

I completely disagree. Of course, I don't think it's the end of the world and we'll see what happens this year, but I'm fairly weary of people giving me crap because I don't only have nice things to say about Barnes' 2nd season. He passed well, he flashed some other skills which, if he starts being an average scorer, will potentially enable him to be very useful. But developmentally, guys who are going to be very good usually show some linear improvement through their first few seasons in the league, especially if they don't have the full pressure of defensive focus on them, so it's at least a bit concerning if they don't. But again, it's really only been one year where we should have been expecting to see improvement and hadn't, so there's time and patience remains the order of the day.

It is, however, super annoying when people want to ignore what happened and only focus on the good side of things. Yes, he still has potential. Yes, he might grow into something quite good. Yes, there's the chance he pulls something like Demar and makes tiny improvements for several years and gets to a very different point from where he started, even though that's quite atypical. But we need to see that beginning, so this upcoming season is very important.

Completely understandable. I think the issue you're running up against is that your assessment of his performance comes across as blatantly missing context. So it comes off as criticism rather than critique. Ten years ago I can see people making the same argument but with PER instead of true shooting. There's much more going on than what these numbers say. And again, they're very typical historically for 2nd year players, particularly, within the context of the entire team shooting poorly, save OG.

I agree that it's annoying when people clamour towards whatever bias they hold. With Scottie, he's enticing because of his sheer aptitude for playmaking. His ceiling is dependent on his efficiency because that influences the coverages he faces and advantages created. But up to this point, and I suppose we disagree, his shooting hasn't been worrisome. I've rarely felt that he's taking the wrong shot and I've been consistently comfortable with his affinity to get to spots he seems comfortable in. I think it's a matter of his role become concrete and getting in the reps. When he can be consistently deliberate in his attack I feel he'll show improvement. And if he doesn't, I think critique will be deserving.

[Spates]

Scottie is essentially 6 more made threes and 1 additional FTA per game away from his numbers looking entirely different. The margins here are thin.

[ATLTimekeeper]

Scottie is essentially 6 more made threes and 1 additional FTA per game away from his numbers looking entirely different. The margins here are thin.

It looks like you've tried to simplify the argument to just TS, which is not what most people are doing.

Just look across the board at FG%, volume, ppp from different actions, as most others have done for a while now. When his numbers are relatively bad compared to people with his volume, then you can see where the doubts lie.

What almost everyone seems to acknowledge is that young players can get better, sometimes significantly better, as growth is widely acknowledged to not be linear. But this year we should see some form of progression in order to know for sure this player can be built around as a franchise player or just built with as a good player. Is he Lamar Odom-type (i.e. and awful player to build around but a useful player to have on your team), or is he a poor man's Giannis that can be a hub on offense? It doesn't mean that if he looks like a Odom he can't still develop into a poor man's Giannis down the road, because he's still very young, but it means the team needs to adjust their vision until that progress starts to emerge.

[Jerry Lucas]

This is a huge year for Scottie. There has been a massive organizational shift towards making him priority #1 (entirely new coaching staff with a focus on development, 0.5 second offence with a focus on ball/player movement plus an emphasis on giving Scottie the ball more, no more FVV to "hold him back", Siakam has obviously been dangled in trades while Scottie has been deemed untouchable, etc.) after he has already been given a fair bit of opportunities in his career thus far; he's #1 in minutes played of his draft class while his 20 USG% over the first 2 seasons is just behind Mobley. If he has another season where his impact and numbers stay mostly the same despite having an environment/system almost entirely catered to him, there is cause for concern – rather, the likelihood that he doesn't have sky-high potential like we thought would become more obvious.

Question for you: if Scottie averages 17/8/5 with roughly 13-14 FGA per 36 mins this season, a TS% between 56.5-57%, an AST% of 20%, and a TOV% of 15%, what would your assessment be of this hypothetical Year 3 for Scottie?

It’s a good year but not a #1 guy year. That’s what we’re hoping for here right?? In todays nba at least 20 ppg should be a breeze

That would be really disappointing, given that folks are looking for improvement.

It would reflect him growing far worse at ball protection and continuing to score at below-average efficiency without any other obvious improvement. He was a roughly 16/7/5 guy PER36 last season, and about 16/8/3.5 PER36 as a rookie.

Mikistan might have been doing the annoying alt-case thing when he was talking about Year 3, but he isn't wrong: at this age in seasons past, Scottie might have still be in college, finding the polish he needed... and then might STILL take a couple years to sort it out. We aren't competing for real any time soon, so the hope is mainly that he shows any kind of improvement at all in the areas where he needs to and we can hang on that as a sign of potential improvement. Maybe. People get excited over his potential, but that passing potential won't mean too much if he's a 6'8 Rondo with a nice hook shot.

It will be interesting to watch how the Raptors play this year. All around, but especially how they deploy Scottie.

I was hoping pingpong would take the bait but it never happened.

Giannis Year 3 stats: 17/8/4 with roughly 13 FGA per 36 mins, a TS% of 56.6%, an AST% of 20%, and a TOV% of 14.8%.

I literally copied and pasted Giannis' Year 3 per 36 stats as a hypothetical Year 3 for Scottie. Development is not linear and not every elite player has the same growth curve. For me Year 4 is the big one. I'm pretty sure none of the league's current elite players broke out later than Year 4, even historically I think it's pretty rare. If Scottie doesn't explode by Year 4, then I will agree with his haters who don't believe in his potential.

[HiJiNX]

I think it’s accurate to say Barnes was a poor scorer and inefficient player last year.

I think it’s accurate to say that his defence and his effort were awful to start the season.

What I don’t think is fair is to utilize the above two points to place doubt on what Scottie will be as a veteran (year 5 and beyond), particularly when we ignore context and areas where he showed improvement, especially in the last two months of the season.

Here are some things that were also true for Barnes last season:

-his role changed a minimum of three times throughout the season
-at no point was Scottie consistently put into his most advantageous spots. Of course, one can argue that the team was trying to stretch Scottie’s comfort zones a bit, which in the end might be of benefit, but in that stretching he was definitely given the ball in situations that were not his forte. For instance, we spent most of the first two months of the season relegating Scottie to being an off-ball guy in the corner or playing him with other poor offensive players (the bench), giving him the ball at the top of the arc and saying, “okay now go create.”
-Barnes shot the ball from deep better in the first quarter than other any other quarter, which might indicate that he has the ability and more consistency (even if that consistency is a 33% three point shooter) might come with conditioning.
-Scottie’s defense took a huge leap about halfway through the season, particularly with respect to what he did inside the arc (his perimeter defence was still average, but as a roamer he was fantastic in Feb/March imo).
-despite being an inefficient player overall, he was by far our most efficient fourth quarter scorer (and near the top of the league in this regard), regardless of the opponent and the coverages. Being able to break any defence or defender thrown at you, especially at the end of games against elite teams, is not the kind of flash/sign that you ignore.

So while I think it’s accurate to critique Barnes for where he was flat out bad and showed regression, I think it’s unfair to use those measures to place doubt on his future as a potential franchise player when we aren’t applying context, acknowledging areas where he did improveme, and not placing a 10,000 watt spotlight on his extremely promising quality of being able to takeover the end of games regardless of the opponent.

And he’s only 22.

[Spates]

Scottie is essentially 6 more made threes and 1 additional FTA per game away from his numbers looking entirely different. The margins here are thin.

It looks like you've tried to simplify the argument to just TS, which is not what most people are doing.

Just look across the board at FG%, volume, ppp from different actions, as most others have done for a while now. When his numbers are relatively bad compared to people with his volume, then you can see where the doubts lie.

What almost everyone seems to acknowledge is that young players can get better, sometimes significantly better, as growth is widely acknowledged to not be linear. But this year we should see some form of progression in order to know for sure this player can be built around as a franchise player or just built with as a good player. Is he Lamar Odom-type (i.e. and awful player to build around but a useful player to have on your team), or is he a poor man's Giannis that can be a hub on offense? It doesn't mean that if he looks like a Odom he can't still develop into a poor man's Giannis down the road, because he's still very young, but it means the team needs to adjust their vision until that progress starts to emerge.

And look at you quoting the lowest hanging fruit. My relevant posts are within 1 page.

My point is that usage and opportunity transforms all these numbers radically. As he dictates the offense more I'd bet he gets to three free throw line more. 1 more trip to the line per game get the kid close to 55% TS. All he has to do is draw more fouls to escape the muck of terrible efficiency. And his situation in the offensive ladder influences these chances. I've never thought his game was oriented towards iso-centric ball. So personally, I'm not worried and I don't think scoring efficiency captures his impact as a player, thus far.

Like I've said in a previous post, the team is more efficient when he is on the court by an impressive margin, one of the best in the league. That should hold weight given he is tied with OG at 4th in FGA per game.

I agree with your last paragraph. Seems like he's excited for his new place in the offense, so now we can better assess. You wouldn't judge an artist by their ability to fight fires.

[Los_29]

Question for you: if Scottie averages 17/8/5 with roughly 13-14 FGA per 36 mins this season, a TS% between 56.5-57%, an AST% of 20%, and a TOV% of 15%, what would your assessment be of this hypothetical Year 3 for Scottie?

It’s a good year but not a #1 guy year. That’s what we’re hoping for here right?? In todays nba at least 20 ppg should be a breeze

That would be really disappointing, given that folks are looking for improvement.

It would reflect him growing far worse at ball protection and continuing to score at below-average efficiency without any other obvious improvement. He was a roughly 16/7/5 guy PER36 last season, and about 16/8/3.5 PER36 as a rookie.

Mikistan might have been doing the annoying alt-case thing when he was talking about Year 3, but he isn't wrong: at this age in seasons past, Scottie might have still be in college, finding the polish he needed... and then might STILL take a couple years to sort it out. We aren't competing for real any time soon, so the hope is mainly that he shows any kind of improvement at all in the areas where he needs to and we can hang on that as a sign of potential improvement. Maybe. People get excited over his potential, but that passing potential won't mean too much if he's a 6'8 Rondo with a nice hook shot.

It will be interesting to watch how the Raptors play this year. All around, but especially how they deploy Scottie.

I was hoping pingpong would take the bait but it never happened.

Giannis Year 3 stats: 17/8/4 with roughly 13 FGA per 36 mins, a TS% of 56.6%, an AST% of 20%, and a TOV% of 14.8%.

I literally copied and pasted Giannis' Year 3 per 36 stats as a hypothetical Year 3 for Scottie. Development is not linear and not every elite player has the same growth curve. For me Year 4 is the big one. I'm pretty sure none of the league's current elite players broke out later than Year 4, even historically I think it's pretty rare. If Scottie doesn't explode by Year 4, then I will agree with his haters who don't believe in his potential.

It’s important to note that Giannis was 20 years old for almost half of his 3rd year. Scottie is 22. We also need to consider that Giannis is a freakish athlete, one of the greatest athletes the sport has ever seen.

I think we need to see improvement from Scottie in year 3 because if we don’t then he’s not a guy you could build around. There are guys like Shai that broke out past his 4th year but with him we knew he was a great player. We just didn’t know he could raise his game to that kind of level.

We will all be happy if Scottie comes in and improves his efficiency, is consistent with his effort and shows he can handle an increased workload. Even if he never becomes an all-star/superstar, he would be a great piece to have on a contending team.

[sidsid]

I think it’s accurate to say Barnes was a poor scorer and inefficient player last year.

I think it’s accurate to say that his defence and his effort were awful to start the season.

What I don’t think is fair is to utilize the above two points to place doubt on what Scottie will be as a veteran (year 5 and beyond), particularly when we ignore context and areas where he showed improvement, especially in the last two months of the season.

Here are some things that were also true for Barnes last season:

-his role changed a minimum of three times throughout the season
-at no point was Scottie consistently put into his most advantageous spots. Of course, one can argue that the team was trying to stretch Scottie’s comfort zones a bit, which in the end might be of benefit, but in that stretching he was definitely given the ball in situations that were not his forte. For instance, we spent most of the first two months of the season relegating Scottie to being an off-ball guy in the corner or playing him with other poor offensive players (the bench), giving him the ball at the top of the arc and saying, “okay now go create.”
-Barnes shot the ball from deep better in the first quarter than other any other quarter, which might indicate that he has the ability and more consistency (even if that consistency is a 33% three point shooter) might come with conditioning.
-Scottie’s defense took a huge leap about halfway through the season, particularly with respect to what he did inside the arc (his perimeter defence was still average, but as a roamer he was fantastic in Feb/March imo).
-despite being an inefficient player overall, he was by far our most efficient fourth quarter scorer (and near the top of the league in this regard), regardless of the opponent and the coverages. Being able to break any defence or defender thrown at you, especially at the end of games against elite teams, is not the kind of flash/sign that you ignore.

So while I think it’s accurate to critique Barnes for where he was flat out bad and showed regression, I think it’s unfair to use those measures to place doubt on his future as a potential franchise player when we aren’t applying context, acknowledging areas where he did improveme, and not placing a 10,000 watt spotlight on his extremely promising quality of being able to takeover the end of games regardless of the opponent.

And he’s only 22.

The focus on the specific roles and times of the game is key to see where his road to stardom lies.

Him thriving in the 4th quarter pressure role is a great one. Shows composure under shifting circumstances.

The free flowing, chaos of the bench role with him as the center of attention is where you want to see that Lowry like passing potential. Fine if there's an uptick in turnovers, but can he organize that hectic offense. He's already great in the fast break, and hopefully he can structure up-tempo play.

High post hub: hopefully we see a lot of it when Poetl isn't on the floor, and this is the biggest potential for star making growth IMO. This didn't exist last year.

Opportunity/Cost of this year's roadblocks:

Poetl kills spacing, which means we'll see how he finishes in heavy traffic. We know he has strength and touch around the basket. It'll be tested here. He'll also have to use the mid-range in these lineups too. Is he limited to being Sabonis around here or does he have some Siakam in him.

[ATLTimekeeper]

Scottie is essentially 6 more made threes and 1 additional FTA per game away from his numbers looking entirely different. The margins here are thin.

It looks like you've tried to simplify the argument to just TS, which is not what most people are doing.

Just look across the board at FG%, volume, ppp from different actions, as most others have done for a while now. When his numbers are relatively bad compared to people with his volume, then you can see where the doubts lie.

What almost everyone seems to acknowledge is that young players can get better, sometimes significantly better, as growth is widely acknowledged to not be linear. But this year we should see some form of progression in order to know for sure this player can be built around as a franchise player or just built with as a good player. Is he Lamar Odom-type (i.e. and awful player to build around but a useful player to have on your team), or is he a poor man's Giannis that can be a hub on offense? It doesn't mean that if he looks like a Odom he can't still develop into a poor man's Giannis down the road, because he's still very young, but it means the team needs to adjust their vision until that progress starts to emerge.

And look at you quoting the lowest hanging fruit. My relevant posts are within 1 page.

My point is that usage and opportunity transforms all these numbers radically. As he dictates the offense more I'd bet he gets to three free throw line more. 1 more trip to the line per game get the kid close to 55% TS. All he has to do is draw more fouls to escape the muck of terrible efficiency. And his situation in the offensive ladder influences these chances. I've never thought his game was oriented towards iso-centric ball. So personally, I'm not worried and I don't think scoring efficiency captures his impact as a player, thus far.

Like I've said in a previous post, the team is more efficient when he is on the court by an impressive margin, one of the best in the league. That should hold weight given he is tied with OG at 4th in FGA per game.

I agree with your last paragraph. Seems like he's excited for his new place in the offense, so now we can better assess. You wouldn't judge an artist by their ability to fight fires.

You posted about TS, then cycled back to TS. If it's low hanging fruit, stop offering it. I'm bringing up his shooting %, his shooting % from certain spots on the floor aren't going to be impacted that much by one extra bad jumper that turns into 2 FTs. If the difference is mid30s in a 2PT shot and 70% on a FT trip, picture how many more of those jump shots he'll be taking because he has more opportunity. The only guy that can really do it is Giannis, because he gets so much volume in the paint at a really high %.

The team is more efficient when he's on the court because he shares the court with better offensive players, and plays with the worse players less frequently.

[canada_dry]

I think people are mistaking "year 3 is important. He needs to show SOME strides in his weaknesses this year"

To mean

"year 3 has to be his break out year or hes a bust"

when thats not at all whats being said...

Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app

[Spates]

It looks like you've tried to simplify the argument to just TS, which is not what most people are doing.

Just look across the board at FG%, volume, ppp from different actions, as most others have done for a while now. When his numbers are relatively bad compared to people with his volume, then you can see where the doubts lie.

What almost everyone seems to acknowledge is that young players can get better, sometimes significantly better, as growth is widely acknowledged to not be linear. But this year we should see some form of progression in order to know for sure this player can be built around as a franchise player or just built with as a good player. Is he Lamar Odom-type (i.e. and awful player to build around but a useful player to have on your team), or is he a poor man's Giannis that can be a hub on offense? It doesn't mean that if he looks like a Odom he can't still develop into a poor man's Giannis down the road, because he's still very young, but it means the team needs to adjust their vision until that progress starts to emerge.

And look at you quoting the lowest hanging fruit. My relevant posts are within 1 page.

My point is that usage and opportunity transforms all these numbers radically. As he dictates the offense more I'd bet he gets to three free throw line more. 1 more trip to the line per game get the kid close to 55% TS. All he has to do is draw more fouls to escape the muck of terrible efficiency. And his situation in the offensive ladder influences these chances. I've never thought his game was oriented towards iso-centric ball. So personally, I'm not worried and I don't think scoring efficiency captures his impact as a player, thus far.

Like I've said in a previous post, the team is more efficient when he is on the court by an impressive margin, one of the best in the league. That should hold weight given he is tied with OG at 4th in FGA per game.

I agree with your last paragraph. Seems like he's excited for his new place in the offense, so now we can better assess. You wouldn't judge an artist by their ability to fight fires.

You posted about TS, then cycled back to TS. If it's low hanging fruit, stop offering it. I'm bringing up his shooting %, his shooting % from certain spots on the floor aren't going to be impacted that much by one extra bad jumper that turns into 2 FTs. If the difference is mid30s in a 2PT shot and 70% on a FT trip, picture how many more of those jump shots he'll be taking because he has more opportunity. The only guy that can really do it is Giannis, because he gets so much volume in the paint at a really high %.

The team is more efficient when he's on the court because he shares the court with better offensive players, and plays with the worse players less frequently.

Do we have internet beef? This is kinda exciting, but I'm already tired of it. Can't we just be friends?

I'm sorry about what I said about Terquavion Smith. He's an all flash no substance paper weight. I was rope-a-doped by a highlight package. I'm not invincible.

Can we make a deal? I'll and-1 your posts more often and in return you'll just let me cook.

[VanWest82]

I think it’s accurate to say Barnes was a poor scorer and inefficient player last year.

I think it’s accurate to say that his defence and his effort were awful to start the season.

What I don’t think is fair is to utilize the above two points to place doubt on what Scottie will be as a veteran (year 5 and beyond), particularly when we ignore context and areas where he showed improvement, especially in the last two months of the season.

Here are some things that were also true for Barnes last season:

Spoiler:

-his role changed a minimum of three times throughout the season
-at no point was Scottie consistently put into his most advantageous spots. Of course, one can argue that the team was trying to stretch Scottie’s comfort zones a bit, which in the end might be of benefit, but in that stretching he was definitely given the ball in situations that were not his forte. For instance, we spent most of the first two months of the season relegating Scottie to being an off-ball guy in the corner or playing him with other poor offensive players (the bench), giving him the ball at the top of the arc and saying, “okay now go create.”
-Barnes shot the ball from deep better in the first quarter than other any other quarter, which might indicate that he has the ability and more consistency (even if that consistency is a 33% three point shooter) might come with conditioning.
-Scottie’s defense took a huge leap about halfway through the season, particularly with respect to what he did inside the arc (his perimeter defence was still average, but as a roamer he was fantastic in Feb/March imo).
-despite being an inefficient player overall, he was by far our most efficient fourth quarter scorer (and near the top of the league in this regard), regardless of the opponent and the coverages. Being able to break any defence or defender thrown at you, especially at the end of games against elite teams, is not the kind of flash/sign that you ignore.

So while I think it’s accurate to critique Barnes for where he was flat out bad and showed regression, I think it’s unfair to use those measures to place doubt on his future as a potential franchise player when we aren’t applying context, acknowledging areas where he did improveme, and not placing a 10,000 watt spotlight on his extremely promising quality of being able to takeover the end of games regardless of the opponent.

And he’s only 22.

And he might have been our most important player last year. Net on/offs:

Scottie +5.5
Fred +3.9
Pascal +3.1
OG +2.4
Trent -6.2

Jak and Koloko's identical net on/offs (+9.2) suggest we were just much better with a big.

But to your last statement, Scottie was always going to take a little longer to develop. He was a role player on all those good youth teams. His efficiency will improve as his skills with the ball improve which is something we can already see happening.

[DatHomieYouHaTe]

Scottie gonna be a beast even if he had a rough last year it'll be hard to fail with all the tools he has. Coach should be able to maximize all his talents and if they could ship Siakam for a Herro or a shooter type like that it'll be game over for the league.

[Los_29]

Scottie gonna be a beast even if he had a rough last year it'll be hard to fail with all the tools he has. Coach should be able to maximize all his talents and if they could ship Siakam for a Herro or a shooter type like that it'll be game over for the league.

I’m not sure if a Barnes/Herro duo would strike a ton of fear in opposing teams.