Official Scottie Barnes Thread - Part 6

[WaltFrazier]

It more speaks to what this board was yelling about since Gasol left and that's having a good center makes a world of difference. Even the teams that can go small Warriors/Bucks/Lakers/Grizz have guys like Jaren, Draymond, AD, and Giannis playing beside a bigger body for stretches because just how tough the position can be. Koloko just being a decent center defensively raised the teams level of play. And Yak slid in and obviously is terrific but also just having a good big opened up a lot.

This was not about having a " decent big", it's about how valuable Yak is. Other than this stat Koloko was a liability on the court. Why didn't he play 30 minutes a game then if he had such an impact on winning?

I'm a massive Poeltl fan and have been since his rookie season. But as awesome as he is I think if the team had any decent center they would've been better off for a majority of last season.

The funny thing is during the period since Gasol left and Baynes failed, up till when we finally got Jak, there were posters here who adamantly maintained we didn't need a big C, we were fine playing small with Pascal OG Scottie Boucher guarding opposing giants. Small ball is fine they said. And as soon as Jakob got here it was an instant upgrade, and it was clear we had needed a real center all along.

[canada_dry]

This was not about having a " decent big", it's about how valuable Yak is. Other than this stat Koloko was a liability on the court. Why didn't he play 30 minutes a game then if he had such an impact on winning?

I'm a massive Poeltl fan and have been since his rookie season. But as awesome as he is I think if the team had any decent center they would've been better off for a majority of last season.

The funny thing is during the period since Gasol left and Baynes failed, up till when we finally got Jak, there were posters here who adamantly maintained we didn't need a big C, we were fine playing small with Pascal OG Scottie Boucher guarding opposing giants. Small ball is fine they said. And as soon as Jakob got here it was an instant upgrade, and it was clear we had needed a real center all along.

Yea that was a little weird.

Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app

[ItsDanger]

This was not about having a " decent big", it's about how valuable Yak is. Other than this stat Koloko was a liability on the court. Why didn't he play 30 minutes a game then if he had such an impact on winning?

I'm a massive Poeltl fan and have been since his rookie season. But as awesome as he is I think if the team had any decent center they would've been better off for a majority of last season.

The funny thing is during the period since Gasol left and Baynes failed, up till when we finally got Jak, there were posters here who adamantly maintained we didn't need a big C, we were fine playing small with Pascal OG Scottie Boucher guarding opposing giants. Small ball is fine they said. And as soon as Jakob got here it was an instant upgrade, and it was clear we had needed a real center all along.

I refer to these types as Masai stans. No C? Don't need one. Acquire Poeltl? Look at the new net rating! Whatever management does, they support regardless of how it looks.

[Nebuchadnezzar]

I'm a massive Poeltl fan and have been since his rookie season. But as awesome as he is I think if the team had any decent center they would've been better off for a majority of last season.

The funny thing is during the period since Gasol left and Baynes failed, up till when we finally got Jak, there were posters here who adamantly maintained we didn't need a big C, we were fine playing small with Pascal OG Scottie Boucher guarding opposing giants. Small ball is fine they said. And as soon as Jakob got here it was an instant upgrade, and it was clear we had needed a real center all along.

I refer to these types as Masai stans. No C? Don't need one. Acquire Poeltl? Look at the new net rating! Whatever management does, they support regardless of how it looks.

Lol I have always advocated for a centre, including when Sharone Wright didn't get enough of a chance to prove himself.

[DemHeavyHands]

Question for you: if Scottie averages 17/8/5 with roughly 13-14 FGA per 36 mins this season, a TS% between 56.5-57%, an AST% of 20%, and a TOV% of 15%, what would your assessment be of this hypothetical Year 3 for Scottie?

It’s a good year but not a #1 guy year. That’s what we’re hoping for here right?? In todays nba at least 20 ppg should be a breeze

That would be really disappointing, given that folks are looking for improvement.

It would reflect him growing far worse at ball protection and continuing to score at below-average efficiency without any other obvious improvement. He was a roughly 16/7/5 guy PER36 last season, and about 16/8/3.5 PER36 as a rookie.

Mikistan might have been doing the annoying alt-case thing when he was talking about Year 3, but he isn't wrong: at this age in seasons past, Scottie might have still be in college, finding the polish he needed... and then might STILL take a couple years to sort it out. We aren't competing for real any time soon, so the hope is mainly that he shows any kind of improvement at all in the areas where he needs to and we can hang on that as a sign of potential improvement. Maybe. People get excited over his potential, but that passing potential won't mean too much if he's a 6'8 Rondo with a nice hook shot.

It will be interesting to watch how the Raptors play this year. All around, but especially how they deploy Scottie.

I was hoping pingpong would take the bait but it never happened.

Giannis Year 3 stats: 17/8/4 with roughly 13 FGA per 36 mins, a TS% of 56.6%, an AST% of 20%, and a TOV% of 14.8%.

I literally copied and pasted Giannis' Year 3 per 36 stats as a hypothetical Year 3 for Scottie. Development is not linear and not every elite player has the same growth curve. For me Year 4 is the big one. I'm pretty sure none of the league's current elite players broke out later than Year 4, even historically I think it's pretty rare. If Scottie doesn't explode by Year 4, then I will agree with his haters who don't believe in his potential.

Yeah but Giannis was much more raw coming in. He went from 6 to 12 to 17ppg in year 3. Giannis was also a year younger than Scottie at the same point. He’s also a generational type of physical freak. I don’t think the comparison makes sense.

Year 3, year 4, what’s the difference. We just want to see the scoring potential come to life. And with more opportunity now and a coach that matches his play style, I think it’s fair to expect more scoring from Scottie this season. He should be better than a 15-17ppg guy at this point if he truly is gonna become a franchise type guy.

[TheAlchemist23]

Not sure where you got those #'s but they are wrong.

Jakob +14.4
Koloko +9.6
FVV +5.9
Scottie +4.9
Siakam +3.1
OG +3.5
GTJ -6.7

I thought Scottie rizz'd it up at C

By default the positions are determined by height on that site, no cared to pay attention to the raptors to adjust them correctly.

[Los_29]

This was not about having a " decent big", it's about how valuable Yak is. Other than this stat Koloko was a liability on the court. Why didn't he play 30 minutes a game then if he had such an impact on winning?

I'm a massive Poeltl fan and have been since his rookie season. But as awesome as he is I think if the team had any decent center they would've been better off for a majority of last season.

The funny thing is during the period since Gasol left and Baynes failed, up till when we finally got Jak, there were posters here who adamantly maintained we didn't need a big C, we were fine playing small with Pascal OG Scottie Boucher guarding opposing giants. Small ball is fine they said. And as soon as Jakob got here it was an instant upgrade, and it was clear we had needed a real center all along.

Most of us were hopeful that Precious would develop into our center. People saw how much success teams like Miami, Boston and GSW were having with small ball centers and it’s the way the league is heading. Or was heading until a generational center in Jokic came along.

[Los_29]

Not only did Masai completely misread what direction the league was going in, he completely misunderstood what makes small ball so effective.

Take away the Warriors and these are the recent champions. Warriors success with small ball is the anomaly, not where the rest of the league was going in.

Denver - huge team.
Bucks - huge team.
Lakers - huge team.
Raptors - huge team.
Cavs - relatively big team.
Spurs - huge team.
Miami Heat - smallball team

Weren’t you salivating over the Celtics small ball, switchable lineups claiming that was the future of the league?

You can’t just take out 4 championships in a span of a decade to try and make your point. Lol.

And the Cavs were starting 6’9 Tristan Thompson at center. Bucks went with Giannis at the 5 a lot in the finals. Lakers had a superstar in AD playing the 5. Heat weren’t big at all. But what’s lost in this is that the Cavs, Lakers and Heat had Lebron.

[sbsat]

Not only did Masai completely misread what direction the league was going in, he completely misunderstood what makes small ball so effective.

Take away the Warriors and these are the recent champions. Warriors success with small ball is the anomaly, not where the rest of the league was going in.

Denver - huge team.
Bucks - huge team.
Lakers - huge team.
Raptors - huge team.
Cavs - relatively big team.
Spurs - huge team.
Miami Heat - smallball team

What does a "huge" team even mean? What does a mean "relatively big" mean? Silly loose and arbitrary definitions

[HumbleRen]

Not only did Masai completely misread what direction the league was going in, he completely misunderstood what makes small ball so effective.

Take away the Warriors and these are the recent champions. Warriors success with small ball is the anomaly, not where the rest of the league was going in.

Denver - huge team.
Bucks - huge team.
Lakers - huge team.
Raptors - huge team.
Cavs - relatively big team.
Spurs - huge team.
Miami Heat - smallball team

What does a "huge" team even mean? What does a mean "relatively big" mean? Silly loose and arbitrary definitions

It means exactly that. A big ass team.

Do you have another word for it ? Or perhaps you have a proper term for it since you’re so anal over the term.

[Los_29]

Not only did Masai completely misread what direction the league was going in, he completely misunderstood what makes small ball so effective.

Take away the Warriors and these are the recent champions. Warriors success with small ball is the anomaly, not where the rest of the league was going in.

Denver - huge team.
Bucks - huge team.
Lakers - huge team.
Raptors - huge team.
Cavs - relatively big team.
Spurs - huge team.
Miami Heat - smallball team

What does a "huge" team even mean? What does a mean "relatively big" mean? Silly loose and arbitrary definitions

It means exactly that. A big ass team.

Do you have another word for it ? Or perhaps you have a proper term for it since you’re so anal over the term.

How were the Cavs a relatively big team? You need to explain yourself. I’m not letting you get away with this. They started Tristan Thompson at the 5, rolled with Jefferson, Mo Will and Shumpert off the bench. The starting lineup consisted of Lebron, Love, Kyrie and Jr Smith.

So we know that the Warriors won 4 championships with small ball. We know the Heat were small. We also know the Cavs weren’t big. So that’s 6 championships in the last 10 years. Lol.

[sbsat]

Not only did Masai completely misread what direction the league was going in, he completely misunderstood what makes small ball so effective.

Take away the Warriors and these are the recent champions. Warriors success with small ball is the anomaly, not where the rest of the league was going in.

Denver - huge team.
Bucks - huge team.
Lakers - huge team.
Raptors - huge team.
Cavs - relatively big team.
Spurs - huge team.
Miami Heat - smallball team

What does a "huge" team even mean? What does a mean "relatively big" mean? Silly loose and arbitrary definitions

It means exactly that. A big ass team.

Do you have another word for it ? Or perhaps you have a proper term for it since you’re so anal over the term.

A precise definition would be nice. "Huge team" means absolutely nothing

[HumbleRen]

Not only did Masai completely misread what direction the league was going in, he completely misunderstood what makes small ball so effective.

Take away the Warriors and these are the recent champions. Warriors success with small ball is the anomaly, not where the rest of the league was going in.

Denver - huge team.
Bucks - huge team.
Lakers - huge team.
Raptors - huge team.
Cavs - relatively big team.
Spurs - huge team.
Miami Heat - smallball team

Weren’t you salivating over the Celtics small ball, switchable lineups claiming that was the future of the league?

You can’t just take out 4 championships in a span of a decade to try and make your point. Lol.

And the Cavs were starting 6’9 Tristan Thompson at center. Bucks went with Giannis at the 5 a lot in the finals. Lakers had a superstar in AD playing the 5. Heat weren’t big at all. But what’s lost in this is that the Cavs, Lakers and Heat had Lebron.

You’re completely wrong lol. Those teams were objectively big who HAD the CAPABILITY of “downsizing” when the matchup required it.

Very cute to call Giannis and AD at the 5 as downsizing considering they’re both 7 footers

Heat has done smallball 5 pretty successfully thanks to Bam being the best 1-5 defender in the league but even their smallness appears as a serious flaw in the finals. Just completely too small against the Lakers and Nuggets to make the series even competitive.

Masai has dropped the ball in roster construction. Playing Scottie at the 5 was a disservice to Scottie. Playing Siakam at the 5 was a disservice to Siakam, playing OG at the 5 was a disservice to OG. Having the worst spacing starting 5 in the league is a disservice to all of them and Darko.

[Los_29]

Not only did Masai completely misread what direction the league was going in, he completely misunderstood what makes small ball so effective.

Take away the Warriors and these are the recent champions. Warriors success with small ball is the anomaly, not where the rest of the league was going in.

Denver - huge team.
Bucks - huge team.
Lakers - huge team.
Raptors - huge team.
Cavs - relatively big team.
Spurs - huge team.
Miami Heat - smallball team

Weren’t you salivating over the Celtics small ball, switchable lineups claiming that was the future of the league?

You can’t just take out 4 championships in a span of a decade to try and make your point. Lol.

And the Cavs were starting 6’9 Tristan Thompson at center. Bucks went with Giannis at the 5 a lot in the finals. Lakers had a superstar in AD playing the 5. Heat weren’t big at all. But what’s lost in this is that the Cavs, Lakers and Heat had Lebron.

You’re completely wrong lol. Those teams were objectively big who HAD the CAPABILITY of “downsizing” when the matchup required it.

Very cute to call Giannis and AD at the 5 as downsizing considering they’re both 7 footers

Heat has done smallball 5 pretty successfully thanks to Bam being the best 1-5 defender in the league but even their smallness appears as a serious flaw in the finals. Just completely too small against the Lakers and Nuggets to make the series even competitive.

Masai has dropped the ball in roster construction. Playing Scottie at the 5 was a disservice to Scottie. Playing Siakam at the 5 was a disservice to Siakam, playing OG at the 5 was a disservice to OG. Having the worst spacing starting 5 in the league is a disservice to all of them and Darko.

Giannis is a freak of nature. He moved to the 5 because he’s an incredibly versatile defender. Lopez played less minutes in the finals than every other series. Bucks dominated the Suns with Giannis at the 5.

AD is a superstar and Jokic is a generational talent.

No, the Heat were just not talented enough. That’s why they lost. Sure, the Nuggets had more size everywhere but the talent disparity was the biggest issue.

I also noticed how you refused to address your ludicrous statement that the Cavs were relatively big. So basically, let me get this straight. Masai dropped the ball because 4 of the last 10 championship teams have been “big.” One of those teams was the one he constructed. Lol. What a compelling argument you have made.

Are you starting to see why people are calling you out for your hyperbole?

[Purple+Black]

This was not about having a " decent big", it's about how valuable Yak is. Other than this stat Koloko was a liability on the court. Why didn't he play 30 minutes a game then if he had such an impact on winning?

I'm a massive Poeltl fan and have been since his rookie season. But as awesome as he is I think if the team had any decent center they would've been better off for a majority of last season.

The funny thing is during the period since Gasol left and Baynes failed, up till when we finally got Jak, there were posters here who adamantly maintained we didn't need a big C, we were fine playing small with Pascal OG Scottie Boucher guarding opposing giants. Small ball is fine they said. And as soon as Jakob got here it was an instant upgrade, and it was clear we had needed a real center all along.

I agree with the deeper point you are making but to be fair, the league itself was going through a bit of a weird identity crisis where several teams were successfully running small-ball lineups and traditional bigs were becoming obsolete — then you had the rise of Jokic/Embiid which put an end to that experiment for most teams.

Precious also initially showed some glimpses of being an effective small-ball 5 — it was a shame that he regressed to such a low last season.

[HumbleRen]

Weren’t you salivating over the Celtics small ball, switchable lineups claiming that was the future of the league?

You can’t just take out 4 championships in a span of a decade to try and make your point. Lol.

And the Cavs were starting 6’9 Tristan Thompson at center. Bucks went with Giannis at the 5 a lot in the finals. Lakers had a superstar in AD playing the 5. Heat weren’t big at all. But what’s lost in this is that the Cavs, Lakers and Heat had Lebron.

You’re completely wrong lol. Those teams were objectively big who HAD the CAPABILITY of “downsizing” when the matchup required it.

Very cute to call Giannis and AD at the 5 as downsizing considering they’re both 7 footers

Heat has done smallball 5 pretty successfully thanks to Bam being the best 1-5 defender in the league but even their smallness appears as a serious flaw in the finals. Just completely too small against the Lakers and Nuggets to make the series even competitive.

Masai has dropped the ball in roster construction. Playing Scottie at the 5 was a disservice to Scottie. Playing Siakam at the 5 was a disservice to Siakam, playing OG at the 5 was a disservice to OG. Having the worst spacing starting 5 in the league is a disservice to all of them and Darko.

Giannis is a freak of nature. He moved to the 5 because he’s an incredibly versatile defender. Lopez played less minutes in the finals than every other series. Bucks dominated the Suns with Giannis at the 5.

AD is a superstar and Jokic is a generational talent.

No, the Heat were just not talented enough. That’s why they lost. Sure, the Nuggets had more size everywhere but the talent disparity was the biggest issue.

I also noticed how you refused to address your ludicrous statement that the Cavs were relatively big. So basically, let me get this straight. Masai dropped the ball because 4 of the last 10 championship teams have been “big.” One of those teams was the one he constructed. Lol. What a compelling argument you have made.

Are you starting to see why people are calling you out for your hyperbole?

4 of the 5 most used line ups minutes wise during the finals run all involved Brook Lopez. Please stop minimizing his impact, it’s embarrassing.

The 2 most used line ups during that Lakers finals run also involved Dwight and McGee at the 5.


I don’t have to discuss if Masai dropped the ball or not with the small ball stuff. “We needed at least to give them a chance with a big rim protector and see what this team does,” Ujiri said.


That shows he was clearly aware he did those guys a disservice by making them play small ball. We don’t need to go back on forth, Masai acknowledged it was a mistake.

Going all in on smallball was never feasible or sustainable especially when you don’t have a Lebron James or Stephen Curry at the helm.

[nikster]

I'm a massive Poeltl fan and have been since his rookie season. But as awesome as he is I think if the team had any decent center they would've been better off for a majority of last season.

The funny thing is during the period since Gasol left and Baynes failed, up till when we finally got Jak, there were posters here who adamantly maintained we didn't need a big C, we were fine playing small with Pascal OG Scottie Boucher guarding opposing giants. Small ball is fine they said. And as soon as Jakob got here it was an instant upgrade, and it was clear we had needed a real center all along.

I agree with the deeper point you are making but to be fair, the league itself was going through a bit of a weird identity crisis where several teams were successfully running small-ball lineups and traditional bigs were becoming obsolete — then you had the rise of Jokic/Embiid which put an end to that experiment for most teams.

Precious also initially showed some glimpses of being an effective small-ball 5 — it was a shame that he regressed to such a low last season.

I think it's also that the Raptors showed some promise with a 48 win season without a big centre and that team had some other serious flaws beside lack of size (shooting, rim pressure etc...)

[SkywalkerAC]

Well now we’re a really big team and all that is water under the bridge. I would say a big part of how underrated we are is people don’t resize just how big/athletic/talented we are up and down the lineup.

[Vampirate]

You’re completely wrong lol. Those teams were objectively big who HAD the CAPABILITY of “downsizing” when the matchup required it.

Very cute to call Giannis and AD at the 5 as downsizing considering they’re both 7 footers

Heat has done smallball 5 pretty successfully thanks to Bam being the best 1-5 defender in the league but even their smallness appears as a serious flaw in the finals. Just completely too small against the Lakers and Nuggets to make the series even competitive.

Masai has dropped the ball in roster construction. Playing Scottie at the 5 was a disservice to Scottie. Playing Siakam at the 5 was a disservice to Siakam, playing OG at the 5 was a disservice to OG. Having the worst spacing starting 5 in the league is a disservice to all of them and Darko.

Giannis is a freak of nature. He moved to the 5 because he’s an incredibly versatile defender. Lopez played less minutes in the finals than every other series. Bucks dominated the Suns with Giannis at the 5.

AD is a superstar and Jokic is a generational talent.

No, the Heat were just not talented enough. That’s why they lost. Sure, the Nuggets had more size everywhere but the talent disparity was the biggest issue.

I also noticed how you refused to address your ludicrous statement that the Cavs were relatively big. So basically, let me get this straight. Masai dropped the ball because 4 of the last 10 championship teams have been “big.” One of those teams was the one he constructed. Lol. What a compelling argument you have made.

Are you starting to see why people are calling you out for your hyperbole?

4 of the 5 most used line ups minutes wise during the finals run all involved Brook Lopez. Please stop minimizing his impact, it’s embarrassing.

The 2 most used line ups during that Lakers finals run also involved Dwight and McGee at the 5.


I don’t have to discuss if Masai dropped the ball or not with the small ball stuff. “We needed at least to give them a chance with a big rim protector and see what this team does,” Ujiri said.


That shows he was clearly aware he did those guys a disservice by making them play small ball. We don’t need to go back on forth, Masai acknowledged it was a mistake.

Going all in on smallball was never feasible or sustainable especially when you don’t have a Lebron James or Stephen Curry at the helm.

Tbh, I view the whole 6"8 lineup as a positive.

In a vaccuum you'd think it's a bad idea and you'd need scorers, but the truth is, in order for your team to get that franchise changing player, he likely has to be over a certain height. Steph Curry is the rare exception to the rule here.

I just think the odds of you making a legit championship contender with your best player being under 6"5 is very slim.

Of course your best player needs to have an assortment of offensive skills still, but you get my point. Until you hit on that type of player.....you're basically at the ceiling of the Hawks with Trae Young or the Derozan Raptors, you're treading water.

[Vampirate]

In a nutshell the only thing that matters is Barnes.

Even if we get an All Star PG but Barnes really doesn't develop, we're still stuck because tbh, our best player is likely 6"2 or something.