Gentleman Celtics Agree To Not Win Every Game! Loss vs MIN 11/6

[jfs1000d]

Anyhow.

Need better guard play out of PP, or it is time to go to Banton or the vet trade market. I think they are a guard short. Maybe Davidson can come here and be something.

But, jru as the only ball handler is rough. Tatum isn’t great ball handler. Brown isn’t a great ball handler. So, they struggled with pressure since white wasn’t there.

Minor issue. Team believes in PO and he has ability to fill role. He has to play better. He gets 20+ games to figure it out.


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[steefP2]

This turnover turned out to be the beginning of the end for us. Edwards blew up after this -- 9 straight points assisted or scored by him.

Read on Twitter

That’s where we missed white the most. Horford just isn’t the offensive threat you need anymore. Ofc we should’ve used KP as the screener instead of Horford there. I understand not wanting to involve gobert in pick and roll defense but they had been x-ing him out of those KP pops all game to keep him close to the rim. Just seems like using kp instead of Horford would’ve been the easiest way to get 2 on the ball and someone else open.



Ultimately it was a matter of shotmaking too; when the wolves had to go our set defense they didn’t get better looks but because the Celtics missed their rough shots; the wolves got into semi transition where we couldn’t trap as effectively; then Celtics had to face their set defense which led to that loop.

Idk I feel like it’s too easy to get stuck into over analyzing this game and especially ot and I’m as guilty of it as anyone. Just need to keep it moving.

[ConstableGeneva]

This turnover turned out to be the beginning of the end for us. Edwards blew up after this -- 9 straight points assisted or scored by him.

Read on Twitter

That’s where we missed white the most. Horford just isn’t the offensive threat you need anymore. Ofc we should’ve used KP as the screener instead of Horford there. I understand not wanting to involve gobert in pick and roll defense but they had been x-ing him out of those KP pops all game to keep him close to the rim. Just seems like using kp instead of Horford would’ve been the easiest way to get 2 on the ball and someone else open.



Ultimately it was a matter of shotmaking too; when the wolves had to go our set defense they didn’t get better looks but because the Celtics missed their rough shots; the wolves got into semi transition where we couldn’t trap as effectively; then Celtics had to face their set defense which led to that loop.

Idk I feel like it’s too easy to get stuck into over analyzing this game and especially ot and I’m as guilty of it as anyone. Just need to keep it moving.

Unsure what the definition/threshold of overanalyzing is. It's the morning after the loss. Fans are talking about how we lost in a post-game thread. I don't think we'll talk about this game tomorrow prior to the Sixers game. Well, unless the same thing happens in crunch time again against Philly.

If some are fine with just, "they missed shots they usually make. They'll be better. On to the next," that's cool too.

FWIW, I rarely post on PGs after losses because I know how toxic it can get. Don't really want to add on to that. I'm just really curious how they can improve their late-game execution cos that's what's led to our demise in previous postseasons.

[Hal14]

Anyhow.

Need better guard play out of PP, or it is time to go to Banton or the vet trade market. I think they are a guard short. Maybe Davidson can come here and be something.

But, jru as the only ball handler is rough. Tatum isn’t great ball handler. Brown isn’t a great ball handler. So, they struggled with pressure since white wasn’t there.

Minor issue. Team believes in PO and he has ability to fill role. He has to play better. He gets 20+ games to figure it out.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Davison is not an NBA player - not this season at least.

Banton could develop into a serviceable backup guard as the season goes on - perhaps he ends up taking Pritchard's spot - especially if Banton can hit jumpers.

But Pritchard is gonna get more than 6 games to prove himself. He was our 8th man when we went to the 2022 NBA finals.

Also, Jrue was the only ball handler for the Bucks when they won the 2021 NBA title. I think he just needs more time to get comfortable on our team, find his rhythm, get used to his role, get used to playing with his new teammates.

Having White back in the lineup will be huge too.

[fallguy]

This turnover turned out to be the beginning of the end for us. Edwards blew up after this -- 9 straight points assisted or scored by him.

Read on Twitter

That’s where we missed white the most. Horford just isn’t the offensive threat you need anymore. Ofc we should’ve used KP as the screener instead of Horford there. I understand not wanting to involve gobert in pick and roll defense but they had been x-ing him out of those KP pops all game to keep him close to the rim. Just seems like using kp instead of Horford would’ve been the easiest way to get 2 on the ball and someone else open.



Ultimately it was a matter of shotmaking too; when the wolves had to go our set defense they didn’t get better looks but because the Celtics missed their rough shots; the wolves got into semi transition where we couldn’t trap as effectively; then Celtics had to face their set defense which led to that loop.

Idk I feel like it’s too easy to get stuck into over analyzing this game and especially ot and I’m as guilty of it as anyone. Just need to keep it moving.

Unsure what the definition/threshold of overanalyzing is. It's the morning after the loss. Fans are talking about how we lost in a post-game thread. I don't think we'll talk about this game tomorrow prior to the Sixers game. Well, unless the same thing happens in crunch time again against Philly.

If some are fine with just, "they missed shots they usually make. They'll be better. On to the next," that's cool too.

FWIW, I rarely post on PGs after losses because I know how toxic it can get. Don't really want to add on to that. I'm just really curious how they can improve their late-game execution cos that's what's led to our demise in previous postseasons.

Almost everything they run late starts with JT or JB above the arc dribbling, often without a screen. This is a huge problem because it's so ingrained in everything they do.

Call timeout. Inbound to Porzingis in the post. Or run Sam off a stagger for a three. Or run a cross screen to get Jrue in the post. Or Or Or.

So many other options but the sets always start the same way.

[LarryBirdsFingr]

Question for the night:Is this a team or a collection of Elite Talent?

Not if it's just your turn my turn ball like we saw last night.

[KillahGhostface]

The last thing I’ll say about the game is there’s a reason the Celtics were the last undefeated team, it’s tough to be perfect every night lol. Of course we’d all liked to have seen better execution, but I don’t see any reason to expect them not to do exactly that as the players get more comfortable with eachother.

[ConstableGeneva]

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[playa-hater]

I stayed out of this thread last night. Too emotional. But I painstakingly read all the posts. Since this was a thread about a single game (Loss) there was of course many factors to every game's losses. So maybe this shouldn't be the thread to Focus on Joe's coaching overall vs just this game.

But with that said Boston continues to Not run things in crunch time. Play ISO ball often. Doesn't seem to hunt out good matchups when it matters most. Or if anything I see very little adjustment going on. Some will put that on Tatum and Brown. And they have done that for years. Under Stevens, Ime and perhaps Joe more than ever.

It all stems on coaching. So far every coach has continually allowed the Js and Smart previously to play like this. I am not sure what coach can force that to change. But I am convinced Joe is probably last in line with that ability.

Having Brown EVER at anytime in the game, bring up the ball, dribble dozen times, only to go one on one is probably the biggest sign of ZERO accountability by our Coach and now staff.

Everyone here has seen and knows what good basketball play and ball movement looks like and certainly every one knows when the offense turns to shet. Not sure if any of our asts coaches can garner more respect and ability to force "smarter" play. But I am thoroughly convinced Joe can not. Especially in crunch time.

[Memokerobi]

This might be too simple of an analysis but what's noticeable is when the opposing team has an elite wing defender or two who can cover Tatum on their own, our offense bogs down esp in crunch time. Having a rim protector makes it even tougher. When the defense has to change up their coverage like double/trap or try different defenders on him, our offense hums and has more ball movement (esp when they double). McDaniels was their 2nd best player last night after Ant even if he shot poorly first 3Qs. His value as someone who can bother Tatum on the ball and off is immeasurable for them. This was also the case when Dubs put Wiggins on Tatum in the Finals.

So if that premise is correct, how do Joe and the rest of the coaching staff combat that?

Tatum has to be smarter navigating crunch time and use his teammates skills to put the defense in a tough spot rather than the defense dictating the situation.

This is the reason Brad got KP. He is the key to unlocking our offense in these situations. Instead of having him stand in the corner, have him set a high pick either forcing the rim protector to get out of the paint where you can attack him easier or force them to pre-switch a shorter guy on KP who he can exploit either in the post or by shooting over them. I think Tatum will learn by the season's end.

Looking back to yesterday with a clearer mind, its too optimistic to expect every problem from last year to be resolved 6 games in, we'll have games like this that will hopefully help us improve

[BK_2020]

I stayed out of this thread last night. Too emotional. But I painstakingly read all the posts. Since this was a thread about a single game (Loss) there was of course many factors to every game's losses. So maybe this shouldn't be the thread to Focus on Joe's coaching overall vs just this game.

But with that said Boston continues to Not run things in crunch time. Play ISO ball often. Doesn't seem to hunt out good matchups when it matters most. Or if anything I see very little adjustment going on. Some will put that on Tatum and Brown. And they have done that for years. Under Stevens, Ime and perhaps Joe more than ever.

It all stems on coaching. So far every coach has continually allowed the Js and Smart previously to play like this. I am not sure what coach can force that to change. But I am convinced Joe is probably last in line with that ability.

Having Brown EVER at anytime in the game, bring up the ball, dribble dozen times, only to go one on one is probably the biggest sign of ZERO accountability by our Coach and now staff.

Everyone here has seen and knows what good basketball play and ball movement looks like and certainly every one knows when the offense turns to shet. Not sure if any of our asts coaches can garner more respect and ability to force "smarter" play. But I am thoroughly convinced Joe can not. Especially in crunch time.

I just don't know what the coaching staff can do about Jaylen's selfishness. I think we all know he's the type to instantly turn malcontent and drag the team down if he feels "disrespected."

[GoGreen]

Preseason P. This guy has been useless vs actual NBA talent.

Jays with the iso bs, Al and Jrue with ugly turnovers down the stretch, and Joe having absolutely nothing in the playbook to call with time winding down.

Bad loss but cant win em all. Just such ugly basketball and decision making at the end.

[JJHondo17]

Lot of daggers being thrown at P-Rabbit yet who led the team in +/-? He did at + 13 so he must have been doing something right. Had 6 rebounds (3 offensive) and was at the point of the spear when they were pressing full court. If we get 10 -15 points from him, that's great, but we shouldn't need it with the offensive talent on this team.

[Hal14]

Lot of daggers being thrown at P-Rabbit yet who led the team in +/-? He did at + 13 so he must have been doing something right. Had 6 rebounds (3 offensive) and was at the point of the spear when they were pressing full court. If we get 10 -15 points from him, that's great, but we shouldn't need it with the offensive talent on this team.

Some of those are fair points but +/- means very little when it's only a 1 game sample size.

Also, I think people are getting on Pritchard, not just because of this game but for the greater trend we've seen across the first 6 games of him being not very impactful on either end of the floor and only shooting 16% from 3. Also, people on here were really letting him have it after that 1 wide open corner 3 that he missed.

And while he had 1 or 2 possessions defensively where he did a nice job of pressuring in the back court, there was just as many possessions (probably more) where a Wolves player was able to really easily get to his spots and/or really easily rise up and get a clean look at the basket when defended by Pritchard.

We might not need 10-15 PPG from him, but it sure would be great if we could get more from our 7th man than what we've been getting so far this season.

[Hal14]

L2M report says the refs missed a foul call on Mcdaniels late in the 4th quarter. Tatum would've gone to the line for 2, obviously would've made at least 1 of them and we would've won the game in regulation.

damn it.

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[Fierce1]

This game should not have gone to OT if the Cs executed in the last 37 seconds of regulation.

Joe called timeout because the Celts had a 2 for 1 opportunity.

But after the timeout, Al just lost the ball out of bounds.

Ugh!

[Dannyboy36]

This turnover turned out to be the beginning of the end for us. Edwards blew up after this -- 9 straight points assisted or scored by him.

Read on Twitter

That’s where we missed white the most. Horford just isn’t the offensive threat you need anymore. Ofc we should’ve used KP as the screener instead of Horford there. I understand not wanting to involve gobert in pick and roll defense but they had been x-ing him out of those KP pops all game to keep him close to the rim. Just seems like using kp instead of Horford would’ve been the easiest way to get 2 on the ball and someone else open.



Ultimately it was a matter of shotmaking too; when the wolves had to go our set defense they didn’t get better looks but because the Celtics missed their rough shots; the wolves got into semi transition where we couldn’t trap as effectively; then Celtics had to face their set defense which led to that loop.

Idk I feel like it’s too easy to get stuck into over analyzing this game and especially ot and I’m as guilty of it as anyone. Just need to keep it moving.

Unsure what the definition/threshold of overanalyzing is. It's the morning after the loss. Fans are talking about how we lost in a post-game thread. I don't think we'll talk about this game tomorrow prior to the Sixers game. Well, unless the same thing happens in crunch time again against Philly.

If some are fine with just, "they missed shots they usually make. They'll be better. On to the next," that's cool too.

FWIW, I rarely post on PGs after losses because I know how toxic it can get. Don't really want to add on to that. I'm just really curious how they can improve their late-game execution cos that's what's led to our demise in previous postseasons.

I feel like some posters have nailed it here, already. It’s not that difficult for the Celts to correct it but seems strange they would go away from using KP in action . I really was wondering why. White DOES change a lot. I think the INTENTIONS of the players is good during crunch time this year . It’s like they are thinking “ ok, let’s slow down and all really focus and value this possession “ and so it’s giving it to the best player and a lot of the standing around happens.

[Shak_Celts]

Take the one time brown really dominated the ball possession in OT and call it selfish. It was Gobert but nothing else was happening, he got a better look than teams give in crunch time. He wasn’t even involved in a lot of the actions in that OT, was standing around like KP. Everyone was standing around on most possessions in OT.

I don’t like that we kept letting them easily switch Al on Ant when he was being shut down by everybody else. There is where they pulled it out. Dagger in his face twice, maybe you tell your team not to let them force a switch so easily. Brown shut him down all game and I saw it during the game instead of a replay or through folk chastising him for being terrible in the game thread.

[BK_2020]

Take the one time brown really dominated the ball possession in OT and call it selfish. It was Gobert but nothing else was happening, he got a better look than teams give in crunch time. He wasn’t even involved in a lot of the actions in that OT, was standing around like KP. Everyone was standing around on most possessions in OT.

I don’t like that we kept letting them easily switch Al on Ant when he was being shut down by everybody else. There is where they pulled it out. Dagger in his face twice, maybe you tell your team not to let them force a switch so easily. Brown shut him down all game and I saw it during the game instead of a replay or through folk chastising him for being terrible in the game thread.

The possession you are talking about was not ISO. Porzingis came to set a pick for him and Jaylen rejected it but about 2 seconds too early, effectively allowing Gobert and Ant to double team both Jaylen and Porzingis. That was not selfishness but lack of skill and feels.
Likewise, and this post is not in response to you specifically but to the prevailing idea that we went away from running actions in the OT, we did run actions just did not execute.
The first play in OT - Al sets a screen for Tatum in the wing, Tatum rejects and gets inside, kickout to wide open Jaylen who bricks the three.
2nd Play - Al and Tatum again. Tatum accepts the screen this time and Al has a lane to the rim except he hesitates to rim run because he's old and tentative now. Tatum ends up with a difficult turnaround and saved by Towns fouling him.
3rdPlay - Al and Tatum again. Al does nothing with the roll. Porzingis standing around with Conley on him. This is where Edwards shoves Tatum to the floor and then mugs him for a jump ball.
4th Play - Horns action where Jaylen hipchecks Conley for an offensive foul
5th play - Jaylen brush screen for Jrue. Jrue gets into the lane but misses the layup.
6th Play is where Jaylen calls his number for an ISO with the usual run into the defender and weakly pass out to a safety valve outcome. With little time left Tatum forced to ISO, misses a step back 3.
7th Play - the play where Jaylen mistimes the screen and decides to shoot a tough turnaround over Rudy Gobert, the 2-time DPOY, instead of passing to his superstar teammate.
On every play until there was 1 minute left, there was some action happening. It just didn't work, sometimes because an easy shot was missed, sometimes there was poor decision-making (Jaylen, Al), sometimes the refs.
Not sure why Joe went to Tatum and Al and not Tatum and Kristaps.

[Shak_Celts]

Take the one time brown really dominated the ball possession in OT and call it selfish. It was Gobert but nothing else was happening, he got a better look than teams give in crunch time. He wasn’t even involved in a lot of the actions in that OT, was standing around like KP. Everyone was standing around on most possessions in OT.

I don’t like that we kept letting them easily switch Al on Ant when he was being shut down by everybody else. There is where they pulled it out. Dagger in his face twice, maybe you tell your team not to let them force a switch so easily. Brown shut him down all game and I saw it during the game instead of a replay or through folk chastising him for being terrible in the game thread.

The possession you are talking about was not ISO. Porzingis came to set a pick for him and Jaylen rejected it but about 2 seconds too early, effectively allowing Gobert and Ant to double team both Jaylen and Porzingis. That was not selfishness but lack of skill and feels.
Likewise, and this post is not in response to you specifically but to the prevailing idea that we went away from running actions in the OT, we did run actions just did not execute.
The first play in OT - Al sets a screen for Tatum in the wing, Tatum rejects and gets inside, kickout to wide open Jaylen who bricks the three.
2nd Play - Al and Tatum again. Tatum accepts the screen this time and Al has a lane to the rim except he hesitates to rim run because he's old and tentative now. Tatum ends up with a difficult turnaround and saved by Towns fouling him.
3rdPlay - Al and Tatum again. Al does nothing with the roll. Porzingis standing around with Conley on him. This is where Edwards shoves Tatum to the floor and then mugs him for a jump ball.
4th Play - Horns action where Jaylen hipchecks Conley for an offensive foul
5th play - Jaylen brush screen for Jrue. Jrue gets into the lane but misses the layup.
6th Play is where Jaylen calls his number for an ISO with the usual run into the defender and weakly pass out to a safety valve outcome. With little time left Tatum forced to ISO, misses a step back 3.
7th Play - the play where Jaylen mistimes the screen and decides to shoot a tough turnaround over Rudy Gobert, the 2-time DPOY, instead of passing to his superstar teammate.
On every play until there was 1 minute left, there was some action happening. It just didn't work, sometimes because an easy shot was missed, sometimes there was poor decision-making (Jaylen, Al), sometimes the refs.
Not sure why Joe went to Tatum and Al and not Tatum and Kristaps.

I didn't say it was iso. You did correct me that he dominated it twice instead of the 1 I mentioned, I forgot about the kick out to Tatum. He kicked it out which left tatum plenty of time to take that to the rack with a one-on-one with essentially a cleared lane. The D was stout, Tatum couldn't get by and reset for a long 3. I don't want to put words in what you didn't say, if you are right that tatum had no time to drive that to the rack and he was forced to take the 3, I'm positive you'll show it and I'll be corrected again, I'll respond that I was wrong.

I learn more with these discussions, thanks for the detailed response!