GT: Charlotte vs Wizards 11/8 7PM EST

[Walt Cronkite]

You sound like a 2nd grader here.
Yay they combined for 18 pts, but hey lets just pretend them scoring is nightly possibility. GTFOH.

Meanwhile Oubre scored 20+ in 24/48 games last year. but let's pretend it is the same thing because those guys have done it 4 times combined their entire careers. lol

Philly, the best team in the East, scores 3.7 points per 100 possessions more with Oubre on the court than off so far. When he is on the court, Philly's opponent scores 15.8 points more per 100 possessions than when he is off the court.

After last night, the Hornets score the 13th most points per 100 possessions but allow the 4th most points per 100. Last season, WITH OUBRE, the Hornets had the WORST offense per 100 possessions and allowed the 10th most points.

The team had the worst offense with Oubre and a bad defense. Now they have a worse defense and so far the offense is actually better without Oubre. How does Oubre scoring points when he allows more points help? It doesn't make sense.

[Rich4114]

so who gets fired first, mitch or cliff?
it should be mitch. this trashfire is all his doing. nobody could win with this mess.

Firing Mitch and then letting the new GM look for their coach makes sense.

Its so annoying that Ime Udoka, Nick Nurse, and Quinn Snyder, were all available in the last year and the front office was just like "nah, Clifford is the guy". Obviously Charlotte isn't a top destination for coaches, but Udoka went to Houston, which was a bigger dumpster fire than Charlotte last season, and Atlanta isn't considered a particularly good job either and they managed to get Quinn Snyder. Odds are they probably don't get one of those guys, but just rolling with Clifford had no upside and was obviously not going to work, and it doesn't appear that Charlotte even looked into the possibility of a coaching change.

It looks like everyone in the organization just hopes that things will get better and everyone will be happy once the most despised player in the NBA returns to the team from their suspension (will Miles be booed by the home crowd lol?).

Clifford is capable under certain conditions, but a young team like this is definitely not it. He's throwing our C's under the bus every game now and he can't run an inbounds play to save his life. Please just accept the mistake, stop doubling down and go hire Mike B or someone before they're not available anymore. Budenolzer has won everywhere he's coached and has turned multiple organizations around. I compare this team to the Hawks teams from the 2010's that he had.

[JMAC3]

You sound like a 2nd grader here.
Yay they combined for 18 pts, but hey lets just pretend them scoring is nightly possibility. GTFOH.

Meanwhile Oubre scored 20+ in 24/48 games last year. but let's pretend it is the same thing because those guys have done it 4 times combined their entire careers. lol

Philly, the best team in the East, scores 3.7 points per 100 possessions more with Oubre on the court than off so far. When he is on the court, Philly's opponent scores 15.8 points more per 100 possessions than when he is off the court.

After last night, the Hornets score the 13th most points per 100 possessions but allow the 4th most points per 100. Last season, WITH OUBRE, the Hornets had the WORST offense per 100 possessions and allowed the 10th most points.

The team had the worst offense with Oubre and a bad defense. Now they have a worse defense and so far the offense is actually better without Oubre. How does Oubre scoring points when he allows more points help? It doesn't make sense.

These are all very pointless comparisons. We sucked last year, we all know that. It had very little to do with Oubre being on the team. More to do with LaMelo being hurt, Bridges suspended, Hayward missing most the year, etc etc.... We love to ignore the roles players are given and then just judge them with a blanket grade.

JT Thor would be fine to play if we had 3-4 good scorers on the floor with him. If you give him the ball and say hey you're a top 2 option tonight, He will be the worst player in the league. Do you think he should be graded the exact same?

So yeah, Oubre is good for Philly as a 3rd or 4th option behind Embiid, Maxey and Harris. He sucked last year for Hornets as the #1 or #2 option.

Me clamoring for Oubre isn't screaming to have the same structure as last year, where he started 40/48 games. I am saying strictly as a guy off the bench that can take shots and keep us in games instead of having to watch Theo, McGowens, Miler, Thor, Richards lineups look like they are purposefully not score the ball.

[Braggins]

Oubre is currently basically shooting 52/41/80 shooting splits, which comes out to +7.5% true shooting compared to his previous best shooting season. Hes 33.1% for his career from 3pt and has only hit 35% once in his career.

His first 10 games for the Hornets he averaged 17.4 ppg while shooting 37% from 3pt and had a lot of people excited, but then he proceeded to shoot 33.5% from 3pt during his two year stint here.

Oubre has been in the league for eight seasons and hes been a negative player pretty much every year of his career. Its possible getting ignored in free agency last season combined with being in a contract year again (also being on a great team) will result in him having the first season of his career where hes a somewhat useful player, but there was no reason for Charlotte to count on that.

Its not like hes the type of player that can facilitate good offensive possessions and help a struggling team create a good context for player development. Simply having him around being the biggest black hole in the league chucking up 20 shots on low efficiency and not having any positive effect on the result would actually be detrimental to a young developing team like this. His assist percentage in Charlotte was lower than Biyombos was the last two years.

His assist% so far this season in Philly has actually plummeted to half of what it was in Charlotte and is currently sitting at 2.8%. If Oubres shooting numbers regress to his career averages hes very possibly going to end up being bad for Philly too. Philly just added solid wing options like Batum and RoCo in the Harden trade and still have assets they could move, so they won't need to rely on him if he can't keep scoring efficiently.

[JMAC3]

Bench got outscored 23 pts to 72 pts. You can scream fire Clifford all you want, but what coaching change was he supposed to make last night to prevent that?

We were literally playing 1 real NBA rotation player off our bench last night.

JT Thor -21 in 21 mins
Theo -21 in 18 mins

Ish, Thor and McGowens played 46 mins combined and scored 2 pts.

We cannot move forward playing that many 3rd stringers together. Something has to give. Clifford will need to figure out how to stagger lineups better, he can't just take 3 starters out at once right now. LaMelo is going to have to play until the 3 min mark and before that maybe sub out Hayward or PJ for one of our bench turds then bring them back in when LaMelo sits. Just spit balling here, but we can't empty the bench right now, it's going to result in giving up 40 point quarters.

We have 6 real NBA rotation players right now. It doesn't matter how you want to try and stagger the lineups. It won't work. LaMelo and PJ both played 36 mins last night. They came out at 4 min mark, so if game would have been close both would have played 40 mins.

We just have no depth at all, which is what happens when you carry 9 guys on a roster you really don't want playing any given night.

[Walt Cronkite]

JT Thor would be fine to play if we had 3-4 good scorers on the floor with him. If you give him the ball and say hey you're a top 2 option tonight, He will be the worst player in the league. Do you think he should be graded the exact same?

JT Thor has actually had less of a negative impact on the court ("only" -6.5, he positively impacts defense on the floor) on the bad Hornets team than Oubre (his team is 11.5 points worse when he is on the court) has on a good team. The same is true for Maledon ("only" -5.1). With a fully available team (only fair if Oubre's last season is irrelevant because no miles, Lamelo, etc), Thor wouldn't be asked to be a top 2 option on the floor, but the team would still be less bad than if they were playing Oubre.

The players you list as being awful are less bad than Kelly Oubre would be. To make shots while giving up MORE points isn't helpful, it's bad and the Hornets would be worse. I would prefer to play guys like McGowens and Thor and see if maybe they develop than a retread like Oubre where you know what he is and he doesn't improve the team. Similarly the team should give Ish's minutes to Nick Smith.

[Walt Cronkite]

We have 6 real NBA rotation players right now. It doesn't matter how you want to try and stagger the lineups. It won't work. LaMelo and PJ both played 36 mins last night. They came out at 4 min mark, so if game would have been close both would have played 40 mins.

We just have no depth at all, which is what happens when you carry 9 guys on a roster you really don't want playing any given night.

The team is bad and lacks depth, especially if missing it's full compliment of players.

[JMAC3]

JT Thor would be fine to play if we had 3-4 good scorers on the floor with him. If you give him the ball and say hey you're a top 2 option tonight, He will be the worst player in the league. Do you think he should be graded the exact same?

JT Thor has actually had less of a negative impact on the court ("only" -6.5, he positively impacts defense on the floor) on the bad Hornets team than Oubre (his team is 11.5 points worse when he is on the court) has on a good team. The same is true for Maledon ("only" -5.1). With a fully available team (only fair if Oubre's last season is irrelevant because no miles, Lamelo, etc), Thor wouldn't be asked to be a top 2 option on the floor, but the team would still be less bad than if they were playing Oubre.

The players you list as being awful are less bad than Kelly Oubre would be. To make shots while giving up MORE points isn't helpful, it's bad and the Hornets would be worse. I would prefer to play guys like McGowens and Thor and see if maybe they develop than a retread like Oubre where you know what he is and he doesn't improve the team. Similarly the team should give Ish's minutes to Nick Smith.

You are using such bad sample sizes my guy, please stop.
You're arguing well Sixers are outscoring opponents with Oubre, but they are outscoring them more without him....
We are better off playing guys that get outscored by their opponents because our starters also get outscores so they don't look as bad in comparison.

We can 100% play McGowens and Thor and lose and be a bad team while we develop them.

[yosemiteben]

Obviously Charlotte isn't a top destination for coaches, but Udoka went to Houston, which was a bigger dumpster fire than Charlotte last season, and Atlanta isn't considered a particularly good job either and they managed to get Quinn Snyder. Odds are they probably don't get one of those guys, but just rolling with Clifford had no upside and was obviously not going to work, and it doesn't appear that Charlotte even looked into the possibility of a coaching change.

I don't agree with this take. They tried for Atkinson and that blew up. They were caught in a legit awful position and Cliff came back to help. It would be legitimately awful optics to then fire Cliff after one year when the team underperformed for reasons outside of his control (injuries + Miles situation). Coaches want to come into situations with stability, not one with a GM that is not going to be around long term, and certainly not one where coaches get fired after one season where they were set up to fail.

Even though Houston was a train wreck, they rode with Silas for three seasons. Atlanta has generally been a relatively stable spot for head coaches as well.

Top tier coaches change every year, this was not a unique opportunity to get a big name. Case in point, my best case outcome for this season (assuming things don't get back on track for a playoff run) is we get a high pick, then next offseason we clean out the FO and coaching staff, bring in a sharp young GM and hire Ty Lue as head coach.

[JMAC3]

Obviously Charlotte isn't a top destination for coaches, but Udoka went to Houston, which was a bigger dumpster fire than Charlotte last season, and Atlanta isn't considered a particularly good job either and they managed to get Quinn Snyder. Odds are they probably don't get one of those guys, but just rolling with Clifford had no upside and was obviously not going to work, and it doesn't appear that Charlotte even looked into the possibility of a coaching change.

I don't agree with this take. They tried for Atkinson and that blew up. They were caught in a legit awful position and Cliff came back to help. It would be legitimately awful optics to then fire Cliff after one year when the team underperformed for reasons outside of his control (injuries + Miles situation). Coaches want to come into situations with stability, not one with a GM that is not going to be around long term, and certainly not one where coaches get fired after one season where they were set up to fail.

Even though Houston was a train wreck, they rode with Silas for three seasons. Atlanta has generally been a relatively stable spot for head coaches as well.

Top tier coaches change every year, this was not a unique opportunity to get a big name. Case in point, my best case outcome for this season (assuming things don't get back on track for a playoff run) is we get a high pick, then next offseason we clean out the FO and coaching staff, bring in a sharp young GM and hire Ty Lue as head coach.

If they fire Cliff now, we are probably getting Tyrone Corbin for the rest of the year. Let's not pretend we are going to steal a top assistant off someones bench mid season.

[Walt Cronkite]

You are using such bad sample sizes my guy, please stop.

I'm not your guy. Kelly oubre's efficiency in Philly is also a bad sample size compared to his time in Charlotte or his general career. Kelly Oubre is a net negative player that allows more points than he contributes. For his entire career.

[JMAC3]

You are using such bad sample sizes my guy, please stop.

I'm not your guy. Kelly oubre's efficiency in Philly is also a bad sample size compared to his time in Charlotte or his general career. Kelly Oubre is a net negative player that allows more points than he contributes. For his entire career.

He is 36th best player in Win Shares this year. If he finishes below any of Thor, Ish, McGowens or Theo then you win. I will bet you right now he finishes the season better than all of them. Pretty good odds for you with 4-1. Should be free money for you the way you talk about him.

DM me the terms. If not then please stop going on about it.

[Walt Cronkite]

"Please stop going on about it" is rich.

I don't gamble, my degeneracy is drink.

[Hornet Mania]

Obviously Charlotte isn't a top destination for coaches, but Udoka went to Houston, which was a bigger dumpster fire than Charlotte last season, and Atlanta isn't considered a particularly good job either and they managed to get Quinn Snyder. Odds are they probably don't get one of those guys, but just rolling with Clifford had no upside and was obviously not going to work, and it doesn't appear that Charlotte even looked into the possibility of a coaching change.

I don't agree with this take. They tried for Atkinson and that blew up. They were caught in a legit awful position and Cliff came back to help. It would be legitimately awful optics to then fire Cliff after one year when the team underperformed for reasons outside of his control (injuries + Miles situation). Coaches want to come into situations with stability, not one with a GM that is not going to be around long term, and certainly not one where coaches get fired after one season where they were set up to fail.

Even though Houston was a train wreck, they rode with Silas for three seasons. Atlanta has generally been a relatively stable spot for head coaches as well.

Top tier coaches change every year, this was not a unique opportunity to get a big name. Case in point, my best case outcome for this season (assuming things don't get back on track for a playoff run) is we get a high pick, then next offseason we clean out the FO and coaching staff, bring in a sharp young GM and hire Ty Lue as head coach.

I agree that at this point Charlotte has to give Cliff at least two years on the job or risk being seen as radioactive by other HC candidates. So even though I'm in favor of kicking him to the curb that has to wait until May.

I disagree that bringing Cliff back was in any way 'help'. That was sheer panic by the inept Charlotte front office/ownership and they reached for a security blanket. The correct move at that point was either to go with their second choice behind Atkinson (D'Antoni) or to reopen the interview process and elevate a young assistant coach from another team. Bringing Cliff back for a second stint was destined to fail spectacularly. It's one of the most embarrassing episodes in the rich history of **** this franchise has screwed up.

[Walt Cronkite]

D'Antoni would've been so great, I had forgotten that was a possibility. Next FO picks the next coach, next FO gets installed when Mitch is out of contract. Team is stagnant until then.

[Braggins]

No one is going to bat an eye if they fire Clifford while the team is performing this poorly. Continuing to stick with him if the team continues to be this bad makes them look worse than firing him would imo (you could say their current reputation is 1/100). I'm pretty sure most people who follow the Hornets would see it as a positive development and an actual sign of life coming from the franchise if they found a replacement for Clifford.

I don't think they should necessarily fire him literally today with no alternative plan and promote Corbin or whoever, but they should absolutely already be actively looking to find his replacement. Realistically, the owners should be looking for Mitch's immediate replacement and his replacement should immediately start looking for a coach and fire Clifford the second they find them, even if it is during this season (the sooner the better).

If Mitch had any hope of not getting fired himself he should be calling up Bud right now and gauging interest and formally requesting to interview someone like Jordi Fernandez. If an actual premium candidate was available immediately it would be crazy not to seriously consider an immediate change, even if it would be awkward to do before an impending front office change (the owners need to stop sitting on their ass about the front office so this ball can get rolling). Maybe Bud is the only coach they should consider that drastic of action for, but either way, I just don't see how being complacent with the current situation isn't the obvious worst option.

Its honestly surreal to even be talking about this in 2023. The Charlotte Hornets franchise is like the Overlook Hotel and Clifford has always been the caretaker.

[Walt Cronkite]

Brandon Miller has the shining?

[yosemiteben]

No one is going to bat an eye if they fire Clifford while the team is performing this poorly.

Strongly disagree, I think it would be (appropriately IMHO) viewed as evidence that a coach has no stability here and will be fired regardless of whether they've been given a fair shot at being successful.

I get this season has been tough so far, but we've only played 7 games and two key parts of our rotation in Miles and Terry aren't even playing. Cliff isn't playing with a full deck. It would be extreme to fire him now and I strongly believe it would impact how interesting the position will look to future coaches.

I agree with your latter point about doing market research about replacements. I don't agree that a marquee candidate would be interested if we hurry up and fire Cliff, for pretty much the reason you said the FO should do it. It'll be seen as a last ditch effort but an outgoing FO with no job certainty.

[Braggins]

No one is going to bat an eye if they fire Clifford while the team is performing this poorly.

Strongly disagree, I think it would be (appropriately IMHO) viewed as evidence that a coach has no stability here and will be fired regardless of whether they've been given a fair shot at being successful.

I get this season has been tough so far, but we've only played 7 games and two key parts of our rotation in Miles and Terry aren't even playing. Cliff isn't playing with a full deck. It would be extreme to fire him now and I strongly believe it would impact how interesting the position will look to future coaches.

I agree with your latter point about doing market research about replacements. I don't agree that a marquee candidate would be interested if we hurry up and fire Cliff, for pretty much the reason you said the FO should do it. It'll be seen as a last ditch effort but an outgoing FO with no job certainty.

Clifford was a panic hiring that never should have been made in the first place and the teams record since hiring him again has been 29-60. His career win% is bottom 3 in the league among active coaches that have more than two years of experience and he was already fired from the team once after a long tenure where he had a losing record and no playoff series wins. I don't think any coach in the world would expect that their seat would be safe in these circumstances.

Stability doesn't mean refusing to fire a guy no matter how obvious it is that they aren't the right person for the job. Clifford has literally had 6 years to show this franchise something. You cant just completely ignore the entire context of Cliffords relationship with this franchise and his career and act like it would be comparable to something like if they had hired Atkinson and then fired him after one rough injury riddled season.

I don't know how anyone could seriously argue that the Charlotte Hornets haven't given Clifford enough of a chance.

[Rich4114]

"Please stop going on about it" is rich.

I don't gamble, my degeneracy is drink.

Hey... I am not going on and on about it