Trae Young is Ridiculously Underrated

[shrink]

In investment circles, that's called an "easy comparison".

The best defense of his life is still terrible defense. It’s like saying a lifetime F student did the best ever and celebrating they got a D minus.

Except in this case the F student has become a C- to a C student. He's average to slightly below average. That is a huge increase.

Trae Young is #466 of 513 in DRtg. That’s the 10th percentile.

And sadly, the poster may be telling the truth when he says this is the best defense of Trae’s life.

Trae is an extremely good offensive player - one of the NBA’s best. But I do not think, on a whole, he is “ridiculously’ under-rated.

[ITYSL]

Trae and Doncic are actually somewhat similar. Both are brilliant in on-ball offensive situations. They are both weak off-ball on offense and then also weak on defense. That's not a recipe for success unless the GM is able to build a team around it. The Hawks kind of did that the one year that they made it to the ECF, but then went in the wrong direction. The Mavs have not been able to do it.

I think we're in an era where it is very, very difficult to have significant success with ball-dominant guards. When's the last time a ball-dominant guard made the Finals? I guess you could argue Curry but he's not as ball-dominant as he used to be - not even sure he's been top 10 in touches for a long time.

[tsherkin]

I think we're in an era where it is very, very difficult to have significant success with ball-dominant guards. When's the last time a ball-dominant guard made the Finals? I guess you could argue Curry but he's not as ball-dominant as he used to be - not even sure he's been top 10 in touches for a long time.

Curry is working on his 9th straight season with 30%+ usage. He's very much a guy who uses tons of touches. He has 2 scoring titles over that stretch and is working on his 4th season of 28+ ppg. You don't score that much without being ball-dominant. He was 13th in touches per game last year, 11th if you filter for at least 50 games played. 12th in 2021, etc. He doesn't shoot quite as much as some of the upper-bound guys, but he gets 18-20 FGA/g and that happens not just with off-ball action. He makes much use of PnR and isos. He's quick in his possession time, though, and has no issues either passing off or working without the ball.

Jordan won lots of titles in his heyday as an absurd usage player and he did a lot of on-ball action. He was able to sometimes get off the ball to get into the post or to take screens and whatever, but he did a great deal of isolation scoring. You see a good number of focal scorers in today's game, and even guards among them. SGA is another good one, though obviously he's 6'6 and not like 6'0.

Trae's problem isn't that he's heavily on-ball, it's that he is small and fades against larger/more athletic defenses. He's trying to be 2019 Harden but he's like 4 feet tall, so it's relatively simpler to crowd him and interrupt his offense than it is to do against a taller player.

Trae and Doncic are actually somewhat similar. Both are brilliant in on-ball offensive situations. They are both weak off-ball on offense and then also weak on defense. That's not a recipe for success unless the GM is able to build a team around it. The Hawks kind of did that the one year that they made it to the ECF, but then went in the wrong direction. The Mavs have not been able to do it.

Off-ball offense is not Luka's problem at all. And he can post quite well, so he can maneuver for position that way, and does. Dallas'
issue is team defense. The one year this past stretch where they weren't below average, they went to the WCFs. They are missing frontcourt pieces, very much as were the pre-2011 Mavs with Dirk.

[Bum Adebayo]

People surprised many don't like Trae and is underrated? it's simple, he tries to draw fouls in a ugly way, similar to Harden, Embiid, etc.
When people complain about Harden and Embiid so much, do you expect that now we will suddenly sing a different tune with Trae? it's all about consistency.

Watch on YouTube

[Godymas]

is Trae Young the KAT of point guards?

Towns has been a good defender for 2.5 seasons, ever since Finch moved him out from drop coverage. This year he has been particularly terrific, and is currently third in the NBA in DRtg.

1. Rudy Gobert • MIN 102.5
2. Goga Bitadze • ORL 106.0
3. Karl-Anthony Towns • MIN 106.0
4. Joel Embiid • PHI 106.2
5. Alperen Şengün • HOU 107.0
6. Anthony Davis • LAL 107.1

I wouldn't take KAT's individual DRTG as anything meaningful. He's being asked to do something different on defense because he's playing with literally the best rim protecting big man since prime Dwight Howard.

Minnesota has 7 line-ups this season they've ran 25 min or more. Guess what the best defensive line-ups are? When KAT plays with Gobert. Line-ups where KAT is playing next to Naz Reid have a DRTG of 110 vs. the 100 or less that the KAT + Gobert line-ups pull.

[Rainwater]

Trae continues to set all time records while playing the best defense of his life since Dec 2022 onwards and crickets from national media. Laughable.

You do realize the hawks still suck, right? They are a play in team at best at the current moment. If the Hawks were actually winning there might be a different tune.

[shrink]

is Trae Young the KAT of point guards?

Towns has been a good defender for 2.5 seasons, ever since Finch moved him out from drop coverage. This year he has been particularly terrific, and is currently third in the NBA in DRtg.

1. Rudy Gobert • MIN 102.5
2. Goga Bitadze • ORL 106.0
3. Karl-Anthony Towns • MIN 106.0
4. Joel Embiid • PHI 106.2
5. Alperen Şengün • HOU 107.0
6. Anthony Davis • LAL 107.1

I wouldn't take KAT's individual DRTG as anything meaningful. He's being asked to do something different on defense because he's playing with literally the best rim protecting big man since prime Dwight Howard.

Minnesota has 7 line-ups this season they've ran 25 min or more. Guess what the best defensive line-ups are? When KAT plays with Gobert. Line-ups where KAT is playing next to Naz Reid have a DRTG of 110 vs. the 100 or less that the KAT + Gobert line-ups pull.

I don’t want to drag this too off topic, but Finch had Towns stop playing drop coverage before Gobert arrived. Yes, KAT plays PF when Gobert is on the floor since Rudy can only play center, but KAT plays the rest of the center whenever Rudy sits - they stagger. Those strong center minutes aren’t drop coverage, and they aren’t boosted by Gobert since he’s on the bench. Towns is a very good defender, and he isn’t anything like Trae Young.

[Godymas]

Towns has been a good defender for 2.5 seasons, ever since Finch moved him out from drop coverage. This year he has been particularly terrific, and is currently third in the NBA in DRtg.

1. Rudy Gobert • MIN 102.5
2. Goga Bitadze • ORL 106.0
3. Karl-Anthony Towns • MIN 106.0
4. Joel Embiid • PHI 106.2
5. Alperen Şengün • HOU 107.0
6. Anthony Davis • LAL 107.1

I wouldn't take KAT's individual DRTG as anything meaningful. He's being asked to do something different on defense because he's playing with literally the best rim protecting big man since prime Dwight Howard.

Minnesota has 7 line-ups this season they've ran 25 min or more. Guess what the best defensive line-ups are? When KAT plays with Gobert. Line-ups where KAT is playing next to Naz Reid have a DRTG of 110 vs. the 100 or less that the KAT + Gobert line-ups pull.

I don’t want to drag this too off topic, but Finch had Towns stop playing drop coverage before Gobert arrived. Yes, KAT plays PF when Gobert is on the floor since Rudy can only play center, but KAT plays the rest of the center whenever Rudy sits - they stagger. Those strong center minutes aren’t drop coverage, and they aren’t boosted by Gobert since he’s on the bench. Towns is a very good defender, and he isn’t anything like Trae Young.

When does KAT play center? Literally the only line-up with KAT at center has 6 mins this season. https://www.nba.com/stats/lineups/advanced?CF=GROUP_NAME*NE*Gobert&TeamID=1610612750&dir=D&slug=advanced&sort=MIN

KAT is always playing with Gobert or Naz Reid

[wco81]

This thread is so telling about the unreal hate and bias against Trae Young. The goalposts have been moved around so much in this thread alone I'm shocked a chiropractor hasn't been called in to help these posters with their aching backs.

This is the original post in this thread:

Just realized Trae isn't on this Team USA squad and he apparently wanted to play. Could be a political shoe thing. Could be his locker room presence.

But this is a guy who's very underrated. He's been to the conference finals, matched up well enough against the bucks before he got hurt, took two games from the Celtics in the playoffs this year. As far as his ability, he's impossible to contain because of his handles, speed and aggressiveness. He's able to hit shots out to 30 feet and can fill it up from midrange and the free throw line. One of the most creative and precise passers in the league.

If he were on the Heat, he'd be seen as better than Devin Booker and probably Donovan Mitchell. situation makes or breaks a lot of folks in the league as far as perception goes, but this guy to me is a clear top 20 player. Celtics would possibly win a chip with him instead of Jaylen Brown. This is a rare offensive talent that's being overshadowed by narratives.

Talking about the playoffs success he's had and how if he were on other teams like the Heat or the Celtics, he'd have had a lot more playoffs success, maybe even win a title.

So people are going to evaluate how he impacts winning, not just raw stats.

I don't think any player should be evaluated without how impactful he is, do you?

Fact is, Hawks have struggled to win consistently in the regular season and other than that one run, haven't had much success in the playoffs.

He's the #1 option and the highest-paid player on the Hawks, so people are going to keep asking why don't the Hawks win more if Trae is so underrated?

Nobody is moving any goal posts, this thread has ALWAYS been about how he impacts winning.

If you want the haters to back off, the Hawks are going to have to win more.

[NekiEcko]

People surprised many don't like Trae and is underrated? it's simple, he tries to draw fouls in a ugly way, similar to Harden, Embiid, etc.
When people complain about Harden and Embiid so much, do you expect that now we will suddenly sing a different tune with Trae? it's all about consistency.

Watch on YouTube

But I dont hear anything about Embiid when he does it. I just think that this place has a real hate bone for Trae. Really, I dont see anybody who gets ragged on more than he does. He is a great player and he is doing it at 6'1" versus the average of height and weight for PG is 2 to 3 inches higher with more pounds.

[ITYSL]

I think we're in an era where it is very, very difficult to have significant success with ball-dominant guards. When's the last time a ball-dominant guard made the Finals? I guess you could argue Curry but he's not as ball-dominant as he used to be - not even sure he's been top 10 in touches for a long time.

Curry is working on his 9th straight season with 30%+ usage. He's very much a guy who uses tons of touches. He has 2 scoring titles over that stretch and is working on his 4th season of 28+ ppg. You don't score that much without being ball-dominant. He was 13th in touches per game last year, 11th if you filter for at least 50 games played. 12th in 2021, etc. He doesn't shoot quite as much as some of the upper-bound guys, but he gets 18-20 FGA/g and that happens not just with off-ball action. He makes much use of PnR and isos. He's quick in his possession time, though, and has no issues either passing off or working without the ball.

Jordan won lots of titles in his heyday as an absurd usage player and he did a lot of on-ball action. He was able to sometimes get off the ball to get into the post or to take screens and whatever, but he did a great deal of isolation scoring. You see a good number of focal scorers in today's game, and even guards among them. SGA is another good one, though obviously he's 6'6 and not like 6'0.

Trae's problem isn't that he's heavily on-ball, it's that he is small and fades against larger/more athletic defenses. He's trying to be 2019 Harden but he's like 4 feet tall, so it's relatively simpler to crowd him and interrupt his offense than it is to do against a taller player.

Trae and Doncic are actually somewhat similar. Both are brilliant in on-ball offensive situations. They are both weak off-ball on offense and then also weak on defense. That's not a recipe for success unless the GM is able to build a team around it. The Hawks kind of did that the one year that they made it to the ECF, but then went in the wrong direction. The Mavs have not been able to do it.

Off-ball offense is not Luka's problem at all. And he can post quite well, so he can maneuver for position that way, and does. Dallas'
issue is team defense. The one year this past stretch where they weren't below average, they went to the WCFs. They are missing frontcourt pieces, very much as were the pre-2011 Mavs with Dirk.

Yeah but the year they made the Finals, Curry wasn't close to top 10 in touches. I still contend that this is an era of ball-dominant wings and bigs, and it's much harder to have significant success if your team is centered around a ball dominant guard.

I agree that DAL's biggest issue is defense, but Doncic is not great off-ball on offense, certainly not nearly as good as Curry.

That is a really good point about SGA. Curious to see how deep of a run they can make.

[Ayt]

People surprised many don't like Trae and is underrated? it's simple, he tries to draw fouls in a ugly way, similar to Harden, Embiid, etc.
When people complain about Harden and Embiid so much, do you expect that now we will suddenly sing a different tune with Trae? it's all about consistency.

Watch on YouTube

But I dont hear anything about Embiid when he does it. I just think that this place has a real hate bone for Trae. Really, I dont see anybody who gets ragged on more than he does. He is a great player and he is doing it at 6'1" versus the average of height and weight for PG is 2 to 3 inches higher with more pounds.

Are you kidding? Embiid gets a ton of hate for all his pathetic flopping.

[docholliday99]

Off-ball offense is not Luka's problem at all. And he can post quite well, so he can maneuver for position that way, and does. Dallas'
issue is team defense. The one year this past stretch where they weren't below average, they went to the WCFs. They are missing frontcourt pieces, very much as were the pre-2011 Mavs with Dirk.

I agree with this and I certainly agree about Dallas needing frontcourt pieces; since they went to the WCF, they've moved Porzingis, Boban, DFS and other defenders and we can't forget that they lost Brunson that summer.

I'm not sure what that FO is doing tbh and having Irving makes their defense even worse - but much harder to upgrade now.

Thinking about the Hawks', I've always thought they should trade Trae and hand the team over to Murray.

[tsherkin]

Yeah but the year they made the Finals, Curry wasn't close to top 10 in touches.

Which year? With Durant, not surprising. In 2022, I already told you he was just outside the top 10. Curry has never been a guy who chases ultra-high volume though, so it's not a huge concern. Meantime, he also isn't as good a volume playmaker as someone like Trae, so a direct comparison is also a little off. Were he, then even Mark Jackson would have eked more out of him. Curry isn't bad in the traditional role, he's just better wielding his perimeter gravity as a weapon.

I still contend that this is an era of ball-dominant wings and bigs, and it's much harder to have significant success if your team is centered around a ball dominant guard.

Depends on the guard. It's demonstrably untrue if you look at the really high-end guys... but then, that's true almost independent of style when a player has a certain threshold of talent. It's only a problem when you have mid-level guys who aren't ATG talents.

I agree that DAL's biggest issue is defense, but Doncic is not great off-ball on offense, certainly not nearly as good as Curry.

No, but it'd be clownish to suggest that he NEEDS to have Curry-level off-ball impact to contend for a title, don't you think?

That is a really good point about SGA. Curious to see how deep of a run they can make.

The next 5 years or so are going to be very interesting for him.

[ShootersShoot]

I think we're in an era where it is very, very difficult to have significant success with ball-dominant guards. When's the last time a ball-dominant guard made the Finals? I guess you could argue Curry but he's not as ball-dominant as he used to be - not even sure he's been top 10 in touches for a long time.

Curry is working on his 9th straight season with 30%+ usage. He's very much a guy who uses tons of touches. He has 2 scoring titles over that stretch and is working on his 4th season of 28+ ppg. You don't score that much without being ball-dominant. He was 13th in touches per game last year, 11th if you filter for at least 50 games played. 12th in 2021, etc. He doesn't shoot quite as much as some of the upper-bound guys, but he gets 18-20 FGA/g and that happens not just with off-ball action. He makes much use of PnR and isos. He's quick in his possession time, though, and has no issues either passing off or working without the ball.

Jordan won lots of titles in his heyday as an absurd usage player and he did a lot of on-ball action. He was able to sometimes get off the ball to get into the post or to take screens and whatever, but he did a great deal of isolation scoring. You see a good number of focal scorers in today's game, and even guards among them. SGA is another good one, though obviously he's 6'6 and not like 6'0.

Trae's problem isn't that he's heavily on-ball, it's that he is small and fades against larger/more athletic defenses. He's trying to be 2019 Harden but he's like 4 feet tall, so it's relatively simpler to crowd him and interrupt his offense than it is to do against a taller player.

Trae and Doncic are actually somewhat similar. Both are brilliant in on-ball offensive situations. They are both weak off-ball on offense and then also weak on defense. That's not a recipe for success unless the GM is able to build a team around it. The Hawks kind of did that the one year that they made it to the ECF, but then went in the wrong direction. The Mavs have not been able to do it.

Off-ball offense is not Luka's problem at all. And he can post quite well, so he can maneuver for position that way, and does. Dallas'
issue is team defense. The one year this past stretch where they weren't below average, they went to the WCFs. They are missing frontcourt pieces, very much as were the pre-2011 Mavs with Dirk.

Yeah but the year they made the Finals, Curry wasn't close to top 10 in touches. I still contend that this is an era of ball-dominant wings and bigs, and it's much harder to have significant success if your team is centered around a ball dominant guard.

I agree that DAL's biggest issue is defense, but Doncic is not great off-ball on offense, certainly not nearly as good as Curry.

That is a really good point about SGA. Curious to see how deep of a run they can make.

What year are you refering to? Steph was top 10 in usage 2015, 2016, 2018 and 2019....12th in 2022.
He wasnt eligible in 2018 iirc due to playing 51 games.

[FinnTheHuman]

I wouldn't take KAT's individual DRTG as anything meaningful. He's being asked to do something different on defense because he's playing with literally the best rim protecting big man since prime Dwight Howard.

Minnesota has 7 line-ups this season they've ran 25 min or more. Guess what the best defensive line-ups are? When KAT plays with Gobert. Line-ups where KAT is playing next to Naz Reid have a DRTG of 110 vs. the 100 or less that the KAT + Gobert line-ups pull.

I don’t want to drag this too off topic, but Finch had Towns stop playing drop coverage before Gobert arrived. Yes, KAT plays PF when Gobert is on the floor since Rudy can only play center, but KAT plays the rest of the center whenever Rudy sits - they stagger. Those strong center minutes aren’t drop coverage, and they aren’t boosted by Gobert since he’s on the bench. Towns is a very good defender, and he isn’t anything like Trae Young.

When does KAT play center? Literally the only line-up with KAT at center has 6 mins this season. https://www.nba.com/stats/lineups/advanced?CF=GROUP_NAME*NE*Gobert&TeamID=1610612750&dir=D&slug=advanced&sort=MIN

KAT is always playing with Gobert or Naz Reid

The guy literally said for the last 2.5 seasons. Towns played most of the minutes at center before Wolves traded for Gobert, and he was a plus defender when not playing drop coverage.

[raleigh]

656 posts later and the entire discussion never really evolved past the first three posts.

You dudes just love collars.

[boogiezen]

Trae and Doncic are actually somewhat similar. Both are brilliant in on-ball offensive situations. They are both weak off-ball on offense and then also weak on defense. That's not a recipe for success unless the GM is able to build a team around it. The Hawks kind of did that the one year that they made it to the ECF, but then went in the wrong direction. The Mavs have not been able to do it.

I think we're in an era where it is very, very difficult to have significant success with ball-dominant guards. When's the last time a ball-dominant guard made the Finals? I guess you could argue Curry but he's not as ball-dominant as he used to be - not even sure he's been top 10 in touches for a long time.

Luka had a starting center of Powell since his rookie season (except now) and heck Boban was his starting center in the playoffs against the Clippers one time! And Luka can post. He has more offensive versatility in his game and almost a walking triple double. But it doesn't mean Trae is not a good player. You're comparing apples and oranges.

[marson]

I think if you put Trae on the Heat, Spo would do wonders.

Spo has done a good job of hiding Tyler and Duncan Robinson on defense by surrounding them with defensively capable players.

The pick-and-roll with Bam would be nasty and would open the lanes for Jimmy.

PG Trae
SG 3 and D player
SF Butler
PF Highsmith
C Bam

[Bum Adebayo]

People surprised many don't like Trae and is underrated? it's simple, he tries to draw fouls in a ugly way, similar to Harden, Embiid, etc.
When people complain about Harden and Embiid so much, do you expect that now we will suddenly sing a different tune with Trae? it's all about consistency.

Watch on YouTube

But I dont hear anything about Embiid when he does it. I just think that this place has a real hate bone for Trae. Really, I dont see anybody who gets ragged on more than he does. He is a great player and he is doing it at 6'1" versus the average of height and weight for PG is 2 to 3 inches higher with more pounds.

Are you kidding? Embiid gets a ton of hate for all his pathetic flopping.

Yeah lol in fact it's the main reason he gets so much hate, this poster saying he doesn't hear anything about Embiid about flopping is hilarious, in fact it's Trae that lately I haven't seen much talk about his foul drawing antics, it's more about his team record and defense more than anything else.