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Trade Talk (Part 14): 2023-24 Edition

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Re: Trade Talk (Part 14): 2023-24 Edition 

Post#1081 » by shrink » Sun Jan 7, 2024 8:10 pm

Domejandro wrote:2. I’ll be honest, I think you guys are somewhat overestimating the value gap between Karl-Anthony Towns and Lauri Markkanen. The value is the massive difference in owed salary that empowers Minnesota to resign other players under the Second Apron (and get a former Sixth Man of the Year who can sporadically drop thirty). I think once you expand beyond that, you start to get really lost in the sauce on what teams would offer.

I could be wrong, but that’s my perspective. I don’t think Utah is trading Lauri Markkanen unless they are getting a haul (which is subsidized by a team that prefers the long-term security of Towns’ contract, even if overpaid).

You could be completely right too. We’re just posters on the internet, speculating on the trade value of a player that’s never been traded. In fact, I have changed my views about the trade value of expensive players, after seeing the big returns for high-priced players in actual trades. I summed up my beliefs in a “Worst Contracts” thread.

shrink wrote:For years I would have listed the same players that others have mentioned. I have always believed that a player’s trade value could be determined by the projected range of his future production compared to his salary. Pay a player $40 mil for $20 mil of production, and that is a negative contract.

Lately, I have been more accepting of the fact that this is not the economic reality among NBA GM’s (though for many, it probably should be). Again and again we see our most “untradable” contracts get dealt. Again and again, contracts that people vow will take two of three 1st rounders to move, get traded for neutral value, or even a protected 1st. Our view of the Worst Contracts does not match the prices we see in reality.

The goal of most GMs is to build a team that can win a championship. Players that have the chance (not certainty) to do that get paid in free agency - and free agency, even with all the convolutions of CBA rules, remains one of our closest measures of GM valuation. As GM’s try to construct their championship teams and make trades, they seem to look at whether a player has the skillset where there is a possibility that they can be a difference-maker. Again, not the certainty, and not even the expected outcome.

For example, in years past, I’d have thought about including Zach LaVine. To me (internet poster), he isn’t worth his contract and unlikely to ever be worth it, with defensive issues and injury concerns. That said, there is a chance in his range of futures that he becomes a critical scorer for a contender and pushes them over the top. If more than one GM sees that, he has more trade value than those players that don’t have the experience, or skill-level to matter, and who can be easily replaced with similar players.

My new standard for a bad contract are the players with the most money on the deal, that it is almost impossible to see that rosy future where they make a difference. Who has become “just a guy,” gets paid, and doesn’t have a future?


Towns is better offensively and defensively than Lauri Markannen. KAT is an elite shooter, and he has demonstrated he can still be great next to talented players. This gap in skill-level doesn’t pay off for average players, but for key pieces, the better player can be the difference between a win and a loss, and why we see extreme contracts and trade packages offered for these type of players.
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Re: Trade Talk (Part 14): 2023-24 Edition 

Post#1082 » by winforlose » Sun Jan 7, 2024 8:23 pm

Karl is not moving this year for equal value. We only move him if we feel that the deal is worth risking the chemistry of the team. A deal that sends Markkanen and Murray to us is one such deal. But, that requires 3 or more teams and if Atlanta ends up with Karl then Atl needs to buy Markkanen from Utah and I don’t know that they have the assets.
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Re: Trade Talk (Part 14): 2023-24 Edition 

Post#1083 » by younggunsmn » Sun Jan 7, 2024 8:57 pm

Domejandro wrote:Warning: Karl-Anthony Towns trade.

If you could swap Karl-Anthony Towns and Shake Milton for Lauri Markkanen and Jordan Clarkson would you do it?

Mike Conley / Jordan Clarkson / Jordan McLaughlin / Daishen Nix (2WP)
Anthony Edwards / Nickeil Alexander-Walker / Wendell Moore Jr.
Jaden McDaniels / Troy Brown Jr. / Josh Minott
Lauri Markkanen / Kyle Anderson / Leonard Miller
Rudy Gobert / Naz Reid / Luka Garza (2WP)

That trade would shave off a staggering $17.1MM next season, provide Minnesota an elite gunner off of the bench (best in the NBA, in that role), and get a more off-ball oriented All-Star to put next to Anthony Edwards. Lauri Markkanen is worse than Karl-Anthony Towns both defensively and at passing, but Minnesota's financials are currently frightening.

(Note: This obviously would be a three-team situation where the third team prefers Karl-Anthony Towns to Lauri Markkanen.)


My issue with a Markkanen trade is that he has only one more year of team control and can become an unrestricted free agent after next year. So it would have to happen in the offseason and come with an extension, which is going to very likely need to be a max extension.

So you save 31 million in 2024 money, but after that best case you get Markkanen for a 30% max versus KAT's 35% max, which is about an 8-10 mil a year savings. Is that worth the downgrade in talent and shakeup in chemistry?
Markaanen is injury prone and has the same issue as KAT in that he is much more potent offensively playing against 5's than against 4's and smaller players.

Clarkson is 31 and shooting 29% from 3 this year (33% for career), and is also injury prone.
The contract is not terrible (2/28 after this year), but with our cap situation I would rather spin him off for cap relief + assets or a player that could be a true PG/shoot better.

But if we do trade KAT, it will have to be a player of Markaanen/Murray's caliber coming back.

Atlanta is not trading Johnson. I could see them moving Murray + Hunter to get off Hunter's contract.
Would have to be another 3-teamer with Hunter getting spun off.

Murray + Markaanen would be nice if Conley is not coming back, but I don't think we have the assets to make that happen.
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Re: Trade Talk (Part 14): 2023-24 Edition 

Post#1084 » by cmoss84 » Sun Jan 7, 2024 9:13 pm

shrink wrote:
cmoss84 wrote:
shrink wrote:1. Yes, the NBA won’t know what the exact figure is until the end of the season, and for whatever reason, they have chosen a modest estimate of a 4.4% increase. It will probably be higher, and it could be much higher. However, expecting some big gains, the NBA capped the amount it could rise to 10%, so the second apron could be $201. However, we wouldn’t get $10 mil more in space under the second apron. Ant and KAT’s extensions are tied to the salary cap, so they would use up close to half of it.

2. What do we consider a discount? Both Conley and Tyus are NBA starting PG’s. At a minimum, I think that means they get more than the MLE, so let’s say a discount is $15 each.

$49.2 Towns
$43.8 Gobert
$42.6 Edwards ($35.5 if he doesn’t make All NBA)
$22.6 McDaniels
$14.0 Naz Reid
$15.0 Conley
$15.0 Tyus Jones
$4.3 NAW
$2.1 MacLaughlin (vet min)
$1.9 Miller
$2.0 Minott

That’s 11, we need three more. Maybe ..

$4.0 Troy Brown Jr (good contract)
$1.8 Jaylen Clark (Hinkie Special)
$2.5 Wendell Moore Jr (guaranteed, if not trade). [EDIT: #26 pick (est) would start at about $2.4 with its 20% bonus.]
——————————————-
$213.8

Exchanging Tyus for vet min deal knocks $13 mil off the payroll. But I would guess that $13 mil off the payroll is around $70 million actual dollars.


So if we were to trade SloMo, Shake, and WMJ for Tyus...and if Ant doesn't make his bonus, we would be $7 over using your figures for next year? And there is a possibility cap increase would cover that?

These numbers are based on a second apron at $191, so we would be about $15 mil over.. If the full 10% leap lifted the second apron to $201, KAT and Ant’s numbers jump too, so the $10 mil in extra room only saves us $5 mil.

The key here is that paying two PG’s $30 mil is tough. I don’t see one year over the second apron as impossible, but there are extra restrictions and a whole lot more luxury tax.

cmoss84 wrote: Do 14/15 both have to count against the cap if we sign 1st and 2nd rd picks?

I’m not sure I’m following, but I can tell you that we need to get to 14 roster spots. Whether we use WMJ or the 1st next year as #14 costs about the same. We need salaried players to make our roster minimums, and if we sign our 1st or 2nds, they count against the cap. Two-ways wouldn’t do either. Does that help?


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Re: Trade Talk (Part 14): 2023-24 Edition 

Post#1085 » by minimus » Sun Jan 7, 2024 10:12 pm

minimus wrote:
Colbinii wrote:
Klomp wrote:Yeah Sacramento screams 'big splash' to me too. I could actually see them in the Siakam sweepstakes, or someone like that.


We should sit there like Piranha's trying to get value as the 3rd team like we did with the Dlo-to-Lakers deal.


https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/nba-trade-rumors-kings-pull-out-of-pascal-siakam-talks-hawks-making-dejounte-murray-available/

Kings pull out of Pascal Siakam talks; Hawks making Dejounte Murray available


I have a question is there any realistic way to get Huerter NOW for and avoid repeater tax next season? For instance, we act as third team, trade Kyle Anderson, Milton for Huerter and POR 2025 SRP from SAC?

I hate Huerter contract, but he is a shooter who can make many things work. For instance, Gobert screen assists, Edwards kickout passing, our off ball movement etc.

Gobert/Towns + Garza
Towns/Reid + Miller
McDaniels/TBJ/Minott
Edwards/Huerter/NAW
Conley/NAW/McLaughlin

Next year if Jaylen Clarke can hit an open three, we will have Gobert-McDaniels-NAW-Clarke defensive group to cover Huerter defensive problems. And I am sure Finch can use some shooting from the bench like he did with Beasley two seasons ago.


Another question regarding Huerter: if we get him, can we expect our offense to be productive even without a pass-first backup PG? I mean watch SAC offense running through Sabonis hands with multiple DHOs, I feel like with a high level movement shooter such as Huerter we can kind of replicate this GSW/SAC offense, I think both Reid and Towns can definitely act like offensive hubs. I can definitely see Reid playing two man game well with Huerter, because Naz is a such quick, dynamic decision maker.



So put the ball into Reid/Towns hands when Gobert is sitting, add DHO with Huerter, simplify whole offense and UP pace.
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Re: Trade Talk (Part 14): 2023-24 Edition 

Post#1086 » by minimus » Sun Jan 7, 2024 10:48 pm

From another thread:

Jalen Suggs? 13PPG, 46%FG, 39%3PT, only 2.5APG, but he plays a really aggressive, physical defense (1.5SPG) If we get Suggs we can absolutely lock perimeter.



Towns, Moore for Suggs, Carter Jr., Isaac and two FRPs

Gobert/Carter + Garza
Isaac/Reid/Anderson + Miller
McDaniels/TBJ/Minott
Edwards/NAW/Milton
Conley/Suggs/McLaughlin

This group will be a tough to score against...

If Isaac can stay healthy (at least this and next season) they will have a chance to be really special.

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Re: Trade Talk (Part 14): 2023-24 Edition 

Post#1087 » by Domejandro » Sun Jan 7, 2024 11:35 pm

minimus wrote:From another thread:

Jalen Suggs? 13PPG, 46%FG, 39%3PT, only 2.5APG, but he plays a really aggressive, physical defense (1.5SPG) If we get Suggs we can absolutely lock perimeter.

Towns, Moore for Suggs, Carter Jr., Isaac and two FRPs

Gobert/Carter + Garza
Isaac/Reid/Anderson + Miller
McDaniels/TBJ/Minott
Edwards/NAW/Milton
Conley/Suggs/McLaughlin

This group will be a tough to score against...

If Isaac can stay healthy (at least this and next season) they will have a chance to be really special.]

First issue is I don't really get that idea from Orlando's perspective (from a roster construction standpoint). It is kind of a weird fit alongside their existing stars.

That said, ignoring Orlando's perspective, I feel like this trade makes Minnesota untenably horrible offensively. To win in the NBA, you need shot creators, and outside of Anthony Edwards and (occassionally) Naz Reid, there is nobody who can reliably "get a bucket". This trade would make Minnesota substantially worse, in the short-term (and probably long-term).
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Re: Trade Talk (Part 14): 2023-24 Edition 

Post#1088 » by minimus » Mon Jan 8, 2024 6:31 am

Domejandro wrote:
minimus wrote:From another thread:

Jalen Suggs? 13PPG, 46%FG, 39%3PT, only 2.5APG, but he plays a really aggressive, physical defense (1.5SPG) If we get Suggs we can absolutely lock perimeter.

Towns, Moore for Suggs, Carter Jr., Isaac and two FRPs

Gobert/Carter + Garza
Isaac/Reid/Anderson + Miller
McDaniels/TBJ/Minott
Edwards/NAW/Milton
Conley/Suggs/McLaughlin

This group will be a tough to score against...

If Isaac can stay healthy (at least this and next season) they will have a chance to be really special.]

First issue is I don't really get that idea from Orlando's perspective (from a roster construction standpoint). It is kind of a weird fit alongside their existing stars.


No, it's a perfect fit, because Towns-Banchero-Wagner frontcourt is a perfect fit for their oversized non shooting backcourt Black-Fultz

Domejandro wrote:That said, ignoring Orlando's perspective, I feel like this trade makes Minnesota untenably horrible offensively. To win in the NBA, you need shot creators, and outside of Anthony Edwards and (occassionally) Naz Reid, there is nobody who can reliably "get a bucket". This trade would make Minnesota substantially worse, in the short-term (and probably long-term).


Have you seen ORL play this season? In many games they were on paper horrible offensively, but they won because attacked opponent in defense in every possession. I have not seen such aggressive defense for a while. In comparison our defense is conservative because we want push, bump opponents into midrange where Gobert, Towns and McDaniels can contest shots.

While I agree with you that trading Towns we trade a big part of our current offense, I still think we can compensate it by using Reid, McDaniels production.
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Re: Trade Talk (Part 14): 2023-24 Edition 

Post#1089 » by minimus » Mon Jan 8, 2024 10:17 am

minimus wrote:
Domejandro wrote:
minimus wrote:From another thread:

Jalen Suggs? 13PPG, 46%FG, 39%3PT, only 2.5APG, but he plays a really aggressive, physical defense (1.5SPG) If we get Suggs we can absolutely lock perimeter.

Towns, Moore for Suggs, Carter Jr., Isaac and two FRPs

Gobert/Carter + Garza
Isaac/Reid/Anderson + Miller
McDaniels/TBJ/Minott
Edwards/NAW/Milton
Conley/Suggs/McLaughlin

This group will be a tough to score against...

If Isaac can stay healthy (at least this and next season) they will have a chance to be really special.]

First issue is I don't really get that idea from Orlando's perspective (from a roster construction standpoint). It is kind of a weird fit alongside their existing stars.


No, it's a perfect fit, because Towns-Banchero-Wagner frontcourt is a perfect fit for their oversized non shooting backcourt Black-Fultz

Domejandro wrote:That said, ignoring Orlando's perspective, I feel like this trade makes Minnesota untenably horrible offensively. To win in the NBA, you need shot creators, and outside of Anthony Edwards and (occassionally) Naz Reid, there is nobody who can reliably "get a bucket". This trade would make Minnesota substantially worse, in the short-term (and probably long-term).


Have you seen ORL play this season? In many games they were on paper horrible offensively, but they won because attacked opponent in defense in every possession. I have not seen such aggressive defense for a while. In comparison our defense is conservative because we want push, bump opponents into midrange where Gobert, Towns and McDaniels can contest shots.

While I agree with you that trading Towns we trade a big part of our current offense, I still think we can compensate it by using Reid, McDaniels production.


Okay, forget it. Lets get Huerter, make MIN offense great again!



While Huerter's contract 16 mil per year scares me, it is still a bit less expensive as other movement shooters such as Bojan Bogdanovic 19.5 mil, Bogdan Bogdanovic 18.7 mil, Duncan Robinson 19 mil, Hield 18 mil...
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Re: Trade Talk (Part 14): 2023-24 Edition 

Post#1090 » by Guidus88 » Mon Jan 8, 2024 3:08 pm

is it possible to get CP3 without giving up our starting 5 and Naz?
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Re: Trade Talk (Part 14): 2023-24 Edition 

Post#1091 » by Colbinii » Mon Jan 8, 2024 3:19 pm

Guidus88 wrote:is it possible to get CP3 without giving up our starting 5 and Naz?


No he makes way too much money.
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Re: Trade Talk (Part 14): 2023-24 Edition 

Post#1092 » by BlacJacMac » Mon Jan 8, 2024 3:31 pm

Guidus88 wrote:is it possible to get CP3 without giving up our starting 5 and Naz?


Only if he's bought out and wants to come here.
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Re: Trade Talk (Part 14): 2023-24 Edition 

Post#1093 » by shrink » Mon Jan 8, 2024 3:45 pm

Guidus88 wrote:is it possible to get CP3 without giving up our starting 5 and Naz?

Yes, but three things would have to happen:

First, GSW would need to trade him to another team. This could certainly happen, where the Warriors package Paul’s $30 mil deal with a disgruntled young player like Kuminga or Moody and try to make one last run.

Second, that team would need to buy out Paul. This could certainly happen as well, as Paul would be very motivated to give back money to try to sign on with a contender.

Third, Chris Paul would need to sign here for the vet min. This is also possible. He’d likely chose the team that gives him the best chance at a ring for his Hall of Fame resumé. After new CBA rules, a buy out candidate can’t sign with a team over the first apron. This means Chris Paul couldn’t sign with

Miami Heat
Denver Nuggets
Philadelphia 76ers
Golden State Warriors
Los Angeles Clippers
Phoenix Suns
Milwaukee Bucks
Boston Celtics

Right now, of the remaining teams, the Timberwolves have the best odds of winning the championship, followed closely by the Thunder. I think it’s also possible he’d sign with the Lakers. I think the Wolves would have a shot, because Paul could have a significant role here with our issues with PG depth, and his game, particularly his experience throwing lobs to DeAndre Jordan, would be a great fit here.
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Re: Trade Talk (Part 14): 2023-24 Edition 

Post#1094 » by Guidus88 » Mon Jan 8, 2024 5:01 pm

shrink wrote:
Guidus88 wrote:is it possible to get CP3 without giving up our starting 5 and Naz?

Yes, but three things would have to happen:

First, GSW would need to trade him to another team. This could certainly happen, where the Warriors package Paul’s $30 mil deal with a disgruntled young player like Kuminga or Moody and try to make one last run.

Second, that team would need to buy out Paul. This could certainly happen as well, as Paul would be very motivated to give back money to try to sign on with a contender.

Third, Chris Paul would need to sign here for the vet min. This is also possible. He’d likely chose the team that gives him the best chance at a ring for his Hall of Fame resumé. After new CBA rules, a buy out candidate can’t sign with a team over the first apron. This means Chris Paul couldn’t sign with

Miami Heat
Denver Nuggets
Philadelphia 76ers
Golden State Warriors
Los Angeles Clippers
Phoenix Suns
Milwaukee Bucks
Boston Celtics

Right now, of the remaining teams, the Timberwolves have the best odds of winning the championship, followed closely by the Thunder. I think it’s also possible he’d sign with the Lakers. I think the Wolves would have a shot, because Paul could have a significant role here with our issues with PG depth, and his game, particularly his experience throwing lobs to DeAndre Jordan, would be a great fit here.


Great post/analysis! thank you!

I totally agree with you that it would be a win scenario for us, him and GSW and that's the reason why I asked. To dream is free, right?
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Re: Trade Talk (Part 14): 2023-24 Edition 

Post#1096 » by twolves31 » Mon Jan 8, 2024 5:04 pm

minimus wrote:
Domejandro wrote:
minimus wrote:From another thread:

Jalen Suggs? 13PPG, 46%FG, 39%3PT, only 2.5APG, but he plays a really aggressive, physical defense (1.5SPG) If we get Suggs we can absolutely lock perimeter.

Towns, Moore for Suggs, Carter Jr., Isaac and two FRPs

Gobert/Carter + Garza
Isaac/Reid/Anderson + Miller
McDaniels/TBJ/Minott
Edwards/NAW/Milton
Conley/Suggs/McLaughlin

This group will be a tough to score against...

If Isaac can stay healthy (at least this and next season) they will have a chance to be really special.]

First issue is I don't really get that idea from Orlando's perspective (from a roster construction standpoint). It is kind of a weird fit alongside their existing stars.


No, it's a perfect fit, because Towns-Banchero-Wagner frontcourt is a perfect fit for their oversized non shooting backcourt Black-Fultz

Domejandro wrote:That said, ignoring Orlando's perspective, I feel like this trade makes Minnesota untenably horrible offensively. To win in the NBA, you need shot creators, and outside of Anthony Edwards and (occassionally) Naz Reid, there is nobody who can reliably "get a bucket". This trade would make Minnesota substantially worse, in the short-term (and probably long-term).


Have you seen ORL play this season? In many games they were on paper horrible offensively, but they won because attacked opponent in defense in every possession. I have not seen such aggressive defense for a while. In comparison our defense is conservative because we want push, bump opponents into midrange where Gobert, Towns and McDaniels can contest shots.

While I agree with you that trading Towns we trade a big part of our current offense, I still think we can compensate it by using Reid, McDaniels production.


Jaden isn't anywhere near ready to be one of our key offensive players.
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Re: Trade Talk (Part 14): 2023-24 Edition 

Post#1097 » by Guidus88 » Mon Jan 8, 2024 5:09 pm



I'm not interested in any trade that has Mike involved... Could be tempt to swap Jaden with Bridge though
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Re: Trade Talk (Part 14): 2023-24 Edition 

Post#1098 » by twolves31 » Mon Jan 8, 2024 5:21 pm

Guidus88 wrote:


I'm not interested in any trade that has Mike involved... Could be tempt to swap Jaden with Bridge though


Agreed on paper you look at that Dejounte Murray trade involving Mike and think that it's a no brainer, but if you looked at Dlo and Mike's stats last season that would have looked like a no brainer to someone that hasn't watched Dlo play. Maybe Murray with a change of scenery and the right system becomes a good defender again, but he did absolutely nothing to improve Atlanta after they traded for him. I wouldn't be looking to trade Jaden, but Bridges would be mighty tempting.
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Re: Trade Talk (Part 14): 2023-24 Edition 

Post#1099 » by minimus » Mon Jan 8, 2024 5:52 pm

twolves31 wrote:
minimus wrote:
Domejandro wrote:First issue is I don't really get that idea from Orlando's perspective (from a roster construction standpoint). It is kind of a weird fit alongside their existing stars.


No, it's a perfect fit, because Towns-Banchero-Wagner frontcourt is a perfect fit for their oversized non shooting backcourt Black-Fultz

Domejandro wrote:That said, ignoring Orlando's perspective, I feel like this trade makes Minnesota untenably horrible offensively. To win in the NBA, you need shot creators, and outside of Anthony Edwards and (occassionally) Naz Reid, there is nobody who can reliably "get a bucket". This trade would make Minnesota substantially worse, in the short-term (and probably long-term).


Have you seen ORL play this season? In many games they were on paper horrible offensively, but they won because attacked opponent in defense in every possession. I have not seen such aggressive defense for a while. In comparison our defense is conservative because we want push, bump opponents into midrange where Gobert, Towns and McDaniels can contest shots.

While I agree with you that trading Towns we trade a big part of our current offense, I still think we can compensate it by using Reid, McDaniels production.


Jaden isn't anywhere near ready to be one of our key offensive players.

Yet
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Re: Trade Talk (Part 14): 2023-24 Edition 

Post#1100 » by shrink » Mon Jan 8, 2024 6:01 pm


I always kind of hate it when national sources hire some rando to talk about what the Wolves front office should do. One of the main reasons I have posted here for so long is that RealGM posters are almost always more informed, and even when I disagree with their conclusions, they come from a basis in fact and intimate knowledge of the team. I don’t think national correspondents ever take the time to really understand the Wolves.

Three of these trades involve Mike Conley, with seemingly no knowledge of why he is so important here, or why the team instantly became a winner when he was swapped for DLo. Yes, Mike has very good stats, knows how to feed Gobert, and makes clutch shots, but his impact goes far beyond that. He is the quiet team leader, #1 in the insiders leadership poll. He provides emotional stability that a team with guys like Ant and KAT desperately need. He is also now Ant’s mentor as he learns to become a better passer/play-maker, which is a necessary step for him to become a superstar. Hopefully Mike is also showing him how to be a professional off the court as well. The three-time NBA’s Sportsmanship Award winner, the man who has never committed a technical foul - Ant needs that side to balance his passion.

One of the concepts you’ve heard me stress many times in trade creation is “more valuable to us than you.” Trades work when the assets involve help the other teams get closer to their goal, than they help their current team meet theirs. This writer says that the other teams might want Conley as an expiring contract. He is worth much more than an expiring contract to us.

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