PG: Knicks almost lose the huge lead, Brunson goes down with an ankle injury, but they win.

[moocow007]

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He's the 3rd option!!! But seriously, the Knicks better not be banking on DDV suddenly finding the fountain of offensive prowess and back off adding another proven offensive shot creator.

[DOT]

He says it in the post game all the time. Winning is all that matters...and he coaches to win each and every time he is out there. I get thats a mindset that needed to be instilled into our team when winning was not at a premium. However now that our team is getting better and our goals are changing a bit...you do have to realize a win is a win but at what cost to the greater picture?

Yeah, I get it

So, we're on a 53 win pace right now, which is really good, but let's say we dial it back a bit, say the only thing that matters is getting to the playoffs healthy at this point, get Brunson down to 32, 33 mpg, let guys rest up a bit, I still think we end up going around .500 the rest of the way, which means we'd end the season at 48 wins

Yes, getting a higher seed for home court advantage is nice, but I like our chances better as a 48 win team that's healthy and rested than as a 53 win team that's exhausted and worn down

It's a line you have to walk cause you can't let it get out of control, but at the end of the day there's a reason Thibs is 5-8 in playoff series. In years his teams went to the playoffs, they're combined 390-240. That means that Thibs' playoff teams on average go 51-31 in the regular season, but he's only won 5 rounds combined in 8 appearances, and 2 of those came his first year in Chicago, meaning only 3 in the last 7 (and if you take out his first season's regular record, that puts him at an average playoff season of 49-33)

This is what it is to be a Thibs team. You win a lot in the regular season, but come playoff time he isn't able to elevate the talent. Which puts him as an average coach at best.

[NowWHYcee7]

I looked up minutes and usage and Thibs doesn’t play his top guns anymore than other teams. Idk, I think it’s a little overblown.

I do think Brunson should have sat last night though, I think I said that in the game thread before the game.

Anyway if I were the Knicks right now I’d rest JB until after the break

[jvsimonetti0514]

And if you want to say hey we are winning...I get it...but also realize he's been down this road before...both his Twolves and Bulls teams always limped to the finish line in the playoffs because of his reckless coaching in the regular season.

I get it we love winning...and he has instilled that every game is important and changed the culture. We also are at a point where playoffs are now more important than a singular regular season game. And I don't think that is in Thibs DNA to realize that because injuries have always creeped up with his teams leading up to the playoffs.

That simply isn't a coincidence...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrrhic_victory

Hannibal really lucked out that Pyrrhic gets remembered for having such a costly victory against Rome that it caused him to lose. Dude campaigned around Italy for 18 years kicking their butts all over the peninsula and killing like 1/5th of Rome’s male population, just to lose. That’s a falcons up on the patriots 28-3 level loss and he just gets to skate by as the crossing the alps with elephants guy.

[HEZI]

You kind of have to hold everybody accountable including trainers, medical staff and players themselves. Players are allowed to say they are a no go if they aren’t feeling right. Nobody can force a player to play if he’s not able to. Also the medical team and trainers are responsible for helping determine who should and shouldn’t play.

But also let’s not act like players aren’t looking to achieve goals and accolades which help with their bonuses in their contracts. Players will put their health at risk if it means chasing certain personal achievements that results in more money for them. There are a lot of factors and not all of it is just as simple as Thibs is nuts. Thibs is nuts but at the same time if you don’t think Brunson isn’t also chasing an All NBA accolade then you are nuts too. If you don’t think Hartenstein isn’t chasing a nice pay check then you are nuts too.

its def not just a one way street. But if the rumors are true and Thibs soured on Grimes in the playoffs because he didn't play through an injury...you can also have guys worried about being put in the doghouse if they don't have the thibs mindset...win at all costs.

So yes, players def want to play...however sometimes as a coach you need to protect your players even against themselves.

I haven’t heard that story so there would have to be context behind it. I don’t remember what injury he had in the playoffs but again we would need full details to know what that could have been about.

But again that goes to my original point, you are either available to play or you are not. If you are available then that means you are playing despite going through whatever you are going through so if you aren’t healthy to play then you shouldn’t be available. It’s that simple. But also be aware that if you aren’t playing then it’s very possible that you can lose your job. Grimes being injury prone cost him his starting spot for good and Mitch likely lost his as well. So players do have incentive to play because they do have a lot to lose.

[jvsimonetti0514]

there are def freak injuries and I wont blame everything on thibs but to act like thibs is a "normal" HC in terms of minutes distribution and playing through injuries for regular season wins is also being a little facetious as well.

Mitch had no business going back into the game after getting hurt - reckless HC decision from thibs

Grimes had no business going back into the game after getting hurt - reckless HC decision from thibs

if you argue against either you aren't being fair. I can make the case Randle shouldn't have been out there vs the heat but lets not even put that on him.

Thibs also needs to read the game (like he says himself). We were up 20 and the starters were just going through the motions...that does tend to lead to more odd injuries because players aren't focused. He could have trusted other guys to manage the bigger lead because they will still play hard and defend vs a bad grizzlies team.

I'm not going to blame the Brunson injury on him because a turned ankle can happen at anytime. But there are clear cases of negligent coaching from him. And if you want to say hey we are winning...I get it...but also realize he's been down this road before...both his Twolves and Bulls teams always limped to the finish line in the playoffs because of his reckless coaching in the regular season.

I get it we love winning...and he has instilled that every game is important and changed the culture. We also are at a point where playoffs are now more important than a singular regular season game. And I don't think that is in Thibs DNA to realize that because injuries have always creeped up with his teams leading up to the playoffs.

That simply isn't a coincidence...

Do you think the players have no say on whether they can go back into the game after they’re injured? I always imagine that the player and the training staff made the decision and relayed their availability to the coach. I think it’s more likely that Mitch and grimes thought they felt better on the sideline and wanted to get back out there, when they shouldn’t have than Thibs dragging them back onto the floor. That’s not to say running an 8 man rotation in February is a good idea and is going to add more wear and tear on their bodies. It’s obvious a valid discussion about finding minutes for Evan, Flynn, and Toppin but I don’t think Thibs is trotting these guys out there against their will.

when there are multiple reports that Thibs sours on guys if they don't play through injuries...you can maybe see why guys would probably try to fight to get back out there.

I always found that report from Bondy pretty suspect. He soured on Grimes so much that he played him 48 minutes in one game against the Heat and kept him as a starter the following season. Then only replaced him as a starter when he struggled for almost 1/4 of the season.

[j4remi]

When we talk about fatigue, I know Thibs is very obvious and all but... We also played the most back-to-backs up through January 1st (and then some I believe), and had a brutal schedule overall. That's not to vindicate Thibs, but this schedule woulda taken a pound of flesh from anyone.

Which brings me to my main point: F*** Adam Silver

[moocow007]

When we talk about fatigue, I know Thibs is very obvious and all but... We also played the most back-to-backs up through January 1st (and then some I believe), and had a brutal schedule overall. That's not to vindicate Thibs, but this schedule woulda taken a pound of flesh from anyone.

Which brings me to my main point: F*** Adam Silver

That doesn't help but Thibs has been basically playing a 7 man rotation for the most part and been riding Randle and Brunson to around 40 minutes a game during the streak (with OG close behind). Even if both guys didn't get injured come playoff time they are going to be beat. They need help and not from just another role playing defender that can shoot a 3 now and then (Bruce Brown for example). Can't change Thibs and can't fire him right now.

[Chanel Bomber]

This is another example of why I keep pushing for another primary offensive option. It's clear (at least to me) that Thibs is riding the few guys that he has that he can rely on creating offense (considering his system is not based on offensive play calling). There is more than enough "shots to go around". Just look at the minutes and the rotation he's been using. They need another primary offensive option. So not Bruce Brown and the like but rather someone that can get 20 points a night on any given night.

no caruso either. these guys make no sense.

I think Caruso is such a game-changer defensively that I could see him being an acquisition that makes a fully healthy Knicks a legit Finals contender.

Shot creation would concentrate in the hands of Brunson, Randle and as a distant third DDV. That's a lot of shots/playmaking for 3 players, I agree.

But with Caruso (in addition to OG, Mitch, iHart, Hart), the success of the team would primarily rest on defense.

I too would like to see another scorer join the team but Caruso would be one of those exceptions.

[Gravy]

I looked up minutes and usage and Thibs doesn’t play his top guns anymore than other teams. Idk, I think it’s a little overblown.

I do think Brunson should have sat last night though, I think I said that in the game thread before the game.

Anyway if I were the Knicks right now I’d rest JB until after the break

For the month of January, Brunson is averaging 35 mpg including two missed games when he is supposedly being played 40+ minutes every night. That's how made up narratives becomes facts

[3toheadmelo]

This is another example of why I keep pushing for another primary offensive option. It's clear (at least to me) that Thibs is riding the few guys that he has that he can rely on creating offense (considering his system is not based on offensive play calling). There is more than enough "shots to go around". Just look at the minutes and the rotation he's been using. They need another primary offensive option. So not Bruce Brown and the like but rather someone that can get 20 points a night on any given night.

no caruso either. these guys make no sense.

I think Caruso is such a game-changer defensively that I could see him being an acquisition that makes a fully healthy Knicks a legit Finals contender.

Shot creation would concentrate in the hands of Brunson, Randle and as a distant third DDV. That's a lot of shots/playmaking for 3 players, I agree.

But with Caruso (in addition to OG, Mitch, iHart, Hart), the success of the team would primarily rest on defense.

I too would like to see another scorer join the team but Caruso would be one of those exceptions.

i don't trust donte as a 3rd option at all. he has that type of jr smith game that ends up being trash in the post season.

also the bulls want an "og package" for caruso. meaning we'd have to give up grimes and deuce as well, our best assets. i'd pass. caruso is good but grimes and deuce do practically the same things.

[j4remi]

When we talk about fatigue, I know Thibs is very obvious and all but... We also played the most back-to-backs up through January 1st (and then some I believe), and had a brutal schedule overall. That's not to vindicate Thibs, but this schedule woulda taken a pound of flesh from anyone.

Which brings me to my main point: F*** Adam Silver

That doesn't help but Thibs has been basically playing a 7 man rotation for the most part and been riding Randle and Brunson to around 40 minutes a game during the streak (with OG close behind). Even if both guys didn't get injured come playoff time they are going to be beat. They need help and not from just another role playing defender that can shoot a 3 now and then (Bruce Brown for example). Can't change Thibs and can't fire him right now.

Oh for sure, and the Knicks even acknowledged the need recently. Fred Katz said they've been looking for an "Innings eater." I wouldn't mind Bruce Brown, because he's one of those "finds a way to be useful" guys. But I'd rather get another lead ball-handler/scorer. It's just a lot harder to get that when the FO wants to preserve their picks. Maybe Bogdan in ATL can be had for cheap. But the guys that make the most sense are gonna cost an outgoing piece and potentially more than one pick.

I just don't think minutes restrictions would be enough to resolve the two Harts or OG from their fatigue injuries. From the sound of it, all three deal with this stuff damn near yearly and just manage the pain. This new schedule around the in-season tournament just feel like its brought on fatigue faster than normal. Maybe that's lucky for us, since we'll have rested guys coming back for the March to postseason run.

[Jeff Van Gully]

Damn bro

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Except Hartenstein is playing with achilles tendinitis from being the only 7 footer who runs the same mileage per game as Steph Curry.

you talking about the achilles condition he came to the team with? yes, also thibs fault.

[Chanel Bomber]

I looked up minutes and usage and Thibs doesn’t play his top guns anymore than other teams. Idk, I think it’s a little overblown.

I do think Brunson should have sat last night though, I think I said that in the game thread before the game.

Anyway if I were the Knicks right now I’d rest JB until after the break

For the month of January, Brunson is averaging 35 mpg including two missed games when he is supposedly being played 40+ minutes every night. That's how made up narratives becomes facts

Also I think every case is different.

I don't think any argument can be made that fatigue factored into Brunson and Randle's injuries. These were classic basketball injuries (falling on your shoulder and turning your ankle).

Grimes hasn't played much.

The Mitch injury, I can see the case against Thibs. Mitch played through an injury that he should have been resting - which likely led to his serious ankle injury.

As for Shartille O'Shart, he averaged 33.2 mpg between Mitch's injury in December and his own injury in January. That's a significant number for a center, and one he wasn't used to, but it wasn't egregious either. I do hope Thibs reduces his minutes moving forward in light of his achilles scare, however.

The dramatization is over the top.

[Chanel Bomber]

no caruso either. these guys make no sense.

I think Caruso is such a game-changer defensively that I could see him being an acquisition that makes a fully healthy Knicks a legit Finals contender.

Shot creation would concentrate in the hands of Brunson, Randle and as a distant third DDV. That's a lot of shots/playmaking for 3 players, I agree.

But with Caruso (in addition to OG, Mitch, iHart, Hart), the success of the team would primarily rest on defense.

I too would like to see another scorer join the team but Caruso would be one of those exceptions.

i don't trust donte as a 3rd option at all. he has that type of jr smith game that ends up being trash in the post season.

also the bulls want an "og package" for caruso. meaning we'd have to give up grimes and deuce as well, our best assets. i'd pass. caruso is good but grimes and deuce do practically the same things.

I think Caruso is on whole other level than Grimes and McBride right now.

If all it took was Grimes, McBride, and our 2024 first, I think it would be a no-brainer. But they're seeking more than that, so depending on the details, could get dicey.

[3toheadmelo]

I think Caruso is such a game-changer defensively that I could see him being an acquisition that makes a fully healthy Knicks a legit Finals contender.

Shot creation would concentrate in the hands of Brunson, Randle and as a distant third DDV. That's a lot of shots/playmaking for 3 players, I agree.

But with Caruso (in addition to OG, Mitch, iHart, Hart), the success of the team would primarily rest on defense.

I too would like to see another scorer join the team but Caruso would be one of those exceptions.

i don't trust donte as a 3rd option at all. he has that type of jr smith game that ends up being trash in the post season.

also the bulls want an "og package" for caruso. meaning we'd have to give up grimes and deuce as well, our best assets. i'd pass. caruso is good but grimes and deuce do practically the same things.

I think Caruso is on whole other level than Grimes and McBride right now.

If all it took was Grimes, McBride, and our 2024 first, I think it would be a no-brainer. But they're seeking more than that, so depending on the details, could get dicey.

jerry west > caruso

[Chanel Bomber]

i don't trust donte as a 3rd option at all. he has that type of jr smith game that ends up being trash in the post season.

also the bulls want an "og package" for caruso. meaning we'd have to give up grimes and deuce as well, our best assets. i'd pass. caruso is good but grimes and deuce do practically the same things.

I think Caruso is on whole other level than Grimes and McBride right now.

If all it took was Grimes, McBride, and our 2024 first, I think it would be a no-brainer. But they're seeking more than that, so depending on the details, could get dicey.

jerry west > caruso

Fine, you win.

[3toheadmelo]

I think Caruso is on whole other level than Grimes and McBride right now.

If all it took was Grimes, McBride, and our 2024 first, I think it would be a no-brainer. But they're seeking more than that, so depending on the details, could get dicey.

jerry west > caruso

Fine, you win.

[Capn'O]

Bullet dodged with JB.

[cgmw]

Damn bro

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Except Hartenstein is playing with achilles tendinitis from being the only 7 footer who runs the same mileage per game as Steph Curry.

you talking about the achilles condition he came to the team with? yes, also thibs fault.

You’ve chosen a very strange hill to plant your flag. To me it’s a boring issue not worth debate that Thibs’ style of coaching leads to injuries and playoff fatigue.

The only fun question to debate is why some people feel the need to defend him. It just sounds like an old-school tough guy “sh*t happens” mentality from the 70s and 80s, when in the 2020s we pretty much know exactly why sh*t happens, how to predict it, and how best to prevent it. Thibs obviously doesn’t subscribe to the latter and he’s enabled by a FO desperate for regular season success. It is what it is, so have fun denying it.

I give the man a ton of credit for what he’s accomplished here, but it comes at very obvious risks and hopefully not too bad of a price. And yes, look at the data of miles run, and you’ll see Hartenstein as the only non-small man on the list, which isn’t surprising since Thibs entire philosophy is to funnel players to the rim for maximum contact on both ends of the floor. Thibs will always require at least three 7 footers on the roster because it’s basically 90% lock that one will be injured playing his style.