2023-24 Season Discussion and Speculation 5 - the calm before the storm

[Saberestar]

Gambo

The Phoenix Suns will not trade for a player unless it is someone who can be a part of their 8–9-man playoff rotation - would have to be a difference maker. They are not going to give away assets to have someone who is not going to play.

[WeekapaugGroove]

I'm getting lazy following this team. Jones never inspires any confidence when it comes to trading. Just gonna wait and see.

Position of need: everything

It’s been over a year now of Ishbia working with him, I’m surprised he hasn’t realized that Jones is one of the worst GMs in the league. I remember last year he couldn’t find any team to trade for Crowder and yet the Nets found a way to trade Crowder and get 5 second rd picks within 10 mins of getting him.

James Jones isn’t cut out to be a FO guy. Every interview he’s done has showed that too. Guy needs to be an assistant coach somewhere.

Bob Myers is available and Ishbia needs to jump on that and make him an offer before some other team does.

The Crowder comment is a little silly, the poo platter of 2nds was always on the table. They needed his salary slot for the KD trade (or any other big money options). No reason to do that Jae trade until you exhausted all other options.


I haven't agreed with all Jones moves and wouldn't lose any sleep if he was gone but judging the results from when he took over to now it's hard to deny he's had a successful run as GM.

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[WeekapaugGroove]

Gambo

The Phoenix Suns will not trade for a player unless it is someone who can be a part of their 8–9-man playoff rotation - would have to be a difference maker. They are not going to give away assets to have someone who is not going to play.

Good. They have such few remaining chips you can't use them on a dude like say Tillman who's basically just a different Eubanks.

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[Book1Nation]

Just do the two 2nds and Little for Royce O'Neale and let's move on with it.

[Revived]

I haven't agreed with all Jones moves and wouldn't lose any sleep if he was gone but judging the results from when he took over to now it's hard to deny he's had a successful run as GM.

How much of the success is due to him? CP3 wanting to come play here is what changed the whole landscape. And that wasn’t because of James Jones, that was because CP3 wanted to come play with Booker and OKC accommodated that request. Other than that, he drafted Cam Johnson. And that’s about it. Everything else has been miscues and I’m sure numerous folks here have already talked about his misses in the draft and trading away young players with potential for aging role players etc.

He’s especially one of the worst trade negotiators in the league imo.

Basically the exact opposite of someone like Danny Ainge.

[Saberestar]

Just do the two 2nds and Little for Royce O'Neal and let's move on with it.

But that trade doesn't make sense for the Nets because Little has 3 more guaranteed years in his contract.

I think they want to trade him for an expiring + 2/3 2nds.

[WeekapaugGroove]

I haven't agreed with all Jones moves and wouldn't lose any sleep if he was gone but judging the results from when he took over to now it's hard to deny he's had a successful run as GM.

How much of the success is due to him? CP3 wanting to come play here is what changed the whole landscape. And that wasn’t because of James Jones, that was because CP3 wanted to come play with Booker and OKC accommodated that request. Other than that, he drafted Cam Johnson. And that’s about it. Everything else has been miscues and I’m sure numerous folks here have already talked about his misses in the draft and trading away young players with potential for aging role players etc.

He’s especially one of the worst trade negotiators in the league imo.

Basically the exact opposite of someone like Danny Ainge.

He moved Ariza and cut Chandlers pouting ass the first year, which helped an almost untenable bad vibes situation around the team.

He then brought in Monty, Baynes, and Rubio all of which really turned around the culture of the franchise.

If those things don't happen first there's no way CP ever wants to come to Phoenix. There's also some major hindsight around that CP trade because it certainly wasn't a 'no brainer' type deal and plenty of posters on this board were against it at the time.

My take on Jones has always been I think he really gets it from a big picture winning program standpoint. I think his weaknesses is the margins/details of the job.

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[Book1Nation]

Just do the two 2nds and Little for Royce O'Neal and let's move on with it.

But that trade doesn't make sense for the Nets because Little has 3 more guaranteed years in his contract.

I think they want to trade him for an expiring + 2/3 2nds.

Saber, I'm a Suns fan and I couldn't care less what makes sense for the Nets. Just do it!!

What about something like...

Suns: Royce O'Neale

Nets: Doug McDermott, Devonte' Graham, Damion Lee, three 2nd round picks (two from PHX and one from SAS)

Spurs: Spencer Dinwiddie, Nassir Little

Why each team does it

Suns get their wing for the cost of Little, Lee and two 2nds
Nets get expiring contracts of McDermott, Graham (non guaranteed), Lee and three 2nd round picks for two of their expiring trade assets
Spurs get Dinwiddie who they could opt to re-sign (much needed NBA level guard for them) for a couple expiring's, a 2nd round pick and the cost of taking Nas Little.

It works in the trade machine. Is this crazy?

[Saberestar]

Just do the two 2nds and Little for Royce O'Neal and let's move on with it.

But that trade doesn't make sense for the Nets because Little has 3 more guaranteed years in his contract.

I think they want to trade him for an expiring + 2/3 2nds.

Saber, I'm a Suns fan and I couldn't care less what makes sense for the Nets. Just do it!!

What about something like...

Suns: Royce O'Neal

Nets: Doug McDermott, Devonte' Graham, Damion Lee, three 2nd round picks (two from PHX and one from SAS)

Spurs: Spencer Dinwiddie, Nassir Little

Why each team does it

Suns get their wing for the cost of Little, Lee and two 2nds
Nets get expiring contracts of McDermott, Graham (non guaranteed), Lee and three 2nd round picks for two of their expiring trade assets
Spurs get Dinwiddie who they could opt to re-sign (much needed NBA level guard for them) for a couple expiring's, a 2nd round pick and the cost of taking Nas Little.

It works in the trade machine. Is this crazy?

Looks a solid trade for every team but Damion Lee has veto rights. Probably easier with Metu in his place.

I have doubts about trading for Royce O'Neale. I like him but he is having a meh season and I don't know if he can make an impact on the Suns. Last year he was better for sure.

[sunskerr]

I haven't agreed with all Jones moves and wouldn't lose any sleep if he was gone but judging the results from when he took over to now it's hard to deny he's had a successful run as GM.

How much of the success is due to him? CP3 wanting to come play here is what changed the whole landscape. And that wasn’t because of James Jones, that was because CP3 wanted to come play with Booker and OKC accommodated that request. Other than that, he drafted Cam Johnson. And that’s about it. Everything else has been miscues and I’m sure numerous folks here have already talked about his misses in the draft and trading away young players with potential for aging role players etc.

He’s especially one of the worst trade negotiators in the league imo.

Basically the exact opposite of someone like Danny Ainge.

I've always wondered what kind of background would be the absolute best to have if you're a GM. I think there is a strong intuitive component to every facet of being a gm outside of like...hard statistical analysis skills. But you can develop the intuition with studying and experience.

Obviously you need a basketball background that informs everything, especially scouting, but beyond that what do you combine with it?

Some sort of systems analysis but not in a business sense, but like an holistic economic or environmental sense. In philosophy you apply something called dialectics to make predictions about how certain conditions/contradictions in an environment resolve themselves. Just applying that to an understanding of how the NBA is a dynamic, constantly changing environment with many little bits and pieces that fluctuate and cause small changes that can add up to large changes (ex D'Antoni increasing the pace started with just one team...once enough teams started increasing the pace, everybody was forced to adopt the pace change or they'd fail).

So I would combine that with statistical understanding. You have a triple threat of basketball knowledge (scouting/strategy/NBA history), a method of viewing the NBA, and statistical understanding, all 3 allowing you to better make predictions.

I'm fairly positive a lot of the best GMs do all this intuitively through experience (and learn the stats from experts). And if they can do all that then they are probably going to be good negotiators by result after developing intuition.

What I think this means is that if you had a perfect GM, they would basically be able to predict what happens in the NBA - what trades would happen, what strategies would win out, etc.. A bit ridiculous when taken to an extreme but taking it back to the real world, the best GMs win out more often than bad GMs do over the long term already.

[WeekapaugGroove]

McD was actually pretty good about extracting value out of each transaction. But he was an awful GM because he didn't understand chemistry how to build a winning foundation.

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[Saberestar]

The Detroit Pistons are finalizing a deal to send guard Monte Morris to the Minnesota Timberwolves, sources tell @TheAthletic @Stadium

Timberwolves are sending Shake Milton, Troy Brown Jr. and one second-round pick to Detroit for Monte Morris

[Jesus_H_Macy]

My take on Jones has always been I think he really gets it from a big picture winning program standpoint. I think his weaknesses is the margins/details of the job.

This 100%. The problem is the margins/details matter, and he is among the worst at them. The best GMs are good at both. I'd be good with keeping Jones on in whatever role equates to the big picture, but he should have zero involvement in the actual dealmaking and negotiations.

McD was actually pretty good about extracting value out of each transaction. But he was an awful GM because he didn't understand chemistry how to build a winning foundation.

This 100% too. Combining Jones and McD's powers would make for a great GM.

If we can get Myers though we shouldn't hesitate to boot Jones. Or just promote him upwards far enough that he won't be participating in negotiations. Ishbia too. Those dudes need to let an actual negotiator handle our deals. With better negotiating we still could have made all the same deals we've made over the past four years except we'd still have a lot more assets.

I don't know how much Jones had to do with the Ayton pick (Doncic actually seemed more like a typical McD pick to me) but I think Bridges has Jones written all over it. However, his massive **** up of the 2020 draft eliminates any good will from the Mikal or Cam picks for me.

[Revived]

We definitely could’ve used Monte Morris especially if all it takes is a 2nd rd pick.

[lilfishi22]

Don't see how he's a big help. He's a great perimeter defender but that's limited because of his size. The minutes he's also able to play is almost limited because he's inconsistent from the 3 and hasn't shown shot creation abilities. He's basically a PG Little. Similar flaws and weaknesses but about 5in shorter

.....and that size is good for guards. In other words, he'd be useful against guys like Jamaal Murray, Deaaron Fox, SGA, Ant Edwards, Kyrie, Harden, FVV and that Steph Curry guy. Lol

All the dudes we'll need to go through to go anywhere in the playoffs. He'd be a massive assest. Who cares if he can shoot? We have 3 guys who can go for 40+ on any given night. Plus doing that would allow Greyson, or Okogie to go after wings and KD to only have to cover 4s and 5s. Makes life easier for all.

Exactly.
Suns need a + point of attack defender.
That's why I suggested the trade.

There's no versatility in that. Carter is a specialist who excels at defense but nothing else. Why does JO not get that many minutes despite being a far better defender than his minutes dictate? Because his offense doesn't warrant more and neither does his playmaking. The reason he even gets minutes is because he can rebound, he can defend 1-4, he knows his limitations and doesn't chuck.

With Carter you're getting JO without the defensive versatility, without the rebounding and you still don't offset that with shooting or playmaking. In essence, we just get a smaller JO and smaller overall.

With what little assets we have, it makes sense we're primarily looking at 3&D wings

[Stix]

Read on Twitter

[Stix]

Sounds like JJ just going to sit on his hands. Not going to spend our last two tokens at the arcade on the claw machine.

[Blonde]

Not making a move this season wouldn’t be the worst thing. There’s a lot of room for internal improvement and we don’t exactly have the means of adding a substantial player (Bridges notwithstanding). If you go into the offseason we’d be able to offer our 2024 pick (currently projected #20) on draft night for a much better return than our seconds would get us now. I would prefer to use the pick and draft a player, but it’s an option and we are in win now mode.

Trading our meager picks or Little for the next Yuta or KBD does nothing for our chances to win this season. Better to retain those assets probably. But if there is a needle mover available, I would hope it is someone who we could retain beyond this year.

[WeekapaugGroove]

Not making a move this season wouldn’t be the worst thing. There’s a lot of room for internal improvement and we don’t exactly have the means of adding a substantial player (Bridges notwithstanding). If you go into the offseason we’d be able to offer our 2024 pick (currently projected #20) on draft night for a much better return than our seconds would get us now. I would prefer to use the pick and draft a player, but it’s an option and we are in win now mode.

Trading our meager picks or Little for the next Yuta or KBD does nothing for our chances to win this season. Better to retain those assets probably. But if there is a needle mover available, I would hope it is someone who we could retain beyond this year.

Nope, not making move for the sake of making a move means that Jones took the week off and actually hates the suns and wants to see them lose. Get with the program Mr. Blonde.

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[Crives]

I just dont want the clippers to get bridges