Bulls Trade Rumors Only

[_txchilibowl_]

Again, I never said to trade all the vets of value, you could have traded atleast one whilst still getting a vet back and some future assets.

How exactly is a team giving up on a player by trading a vet that isn't them and then handing them the keys and tell them to lead the way, that feels like the complete opposite to me.

So you're saying if someone gives up on you then what's the point in carrying on because your value in yourself is tied to what others believe, despite how much work you've put in?

Could we have? I don't know how you know that. You're assuming that there are deals that would have made this team better that we passed up on. AKME said the exact opposite of that. He's clearly wanting to win now. If he could improve the chances of that happening why wouldn't he? Because there wasn't any.

We've seen countless examples of young players being given too much responsibility too soon. It stunts their development and leads to bad habits. It's not a hard and fast rule so I won't say that it definitely would have happened. I just would not risk it for the minimal gain that of some lowly draft picks.

Could means there was a possibility, yes. I never said I knew they turned down such a deal, however there were reports that the Bulls turned down multiple offers for Caruso, they may have been really good deals but AK wanted more!

I seriously doubt that 3 deadlines in a row their were no deals they could have made to improve this team, even if slightly. You're telling me he couldn't make a deal that helps improve the teams lack of front court depth?

You're putting words into my mouth once again, no surprise here. I never said that there were deals to make this team better, but deals where the Bulls gain some future assets without completely gutting the team.

If AK had made atleast 1 move that fills the teams holes in the frontcourt you'd have less people here complaining, but fact of the matter is that he's sat on his hands the last 3 deadlines now and done nothing.

Maybe signing Robin Lopez well help elevate this team to a playoff berth/championship contention this season?

If I put words in your mouth my apologies. That wasn't my intent.

I guess I'm confused as to what fans like yourself want. The criticism that he didn't add anybody to the team seems incongruent with wanting to reset the roster. You're telling me you would have been happy if AK invested more assets into this version of the team?

I don't see how fans can simultaneously want to reboot and improve the team at the same time.

If I had to guess, my thinking is that AKME know this roster needs to be reset. He's not going to publicly come out and say that of course. That would only alienate the players on the team and devalue the ones he would like to trade. And he's not going to take a bad deal just to prove that he knows it needs to be reset. So for now we try to win as much as possible. I don't think it's that outlandish of an idea considering they're probably weren't any better options.

[Dominator83]

You could have just replied to me. I'm a big boy. I can handle it.

We just see basketball differently my friend. I am far from a championship or bust kind of guy. And I definitely don't think that being bad is the only way to get good. I'm team continuity. I want to establish a winning identity. I want people to say Bulls Culture the way they say Heat Culture. You, and apparently many others, would rather just take their chances with the lottery.

I'd like to make the playoffs this year. What a terrible take.

I’m not championship or bust, but this team has ZERO hope of even dreaming about championship even if EVERYTHING fell correctly. Best case scenario is a first round exit every season. Not sure how you can be satisfied with that.

I'm not satisfied with that. I want to win championships. There just isn't a path to that right now. So in the meantime I'll enjoy this team for what it is...a nice mix of young talent and solid vets who enjoy playing basketball for the Chicago Bulls and the city of Chicago.

Additionally, nobody has suggested an alternative plan that would be any better. All that's been suggested is a reset. A teardown. Essentially the most unimaginative "plan" a franchise can have. Zero ideas on what the next steps look like. I'm not comfortable with a "plan" like that. Much more comfortable with changing the culture and league wide perception of the franchise. I think it's far more likely that course pays dividends then hope and pray on the lottery.

It's basically be bad until you can be good. I'd rather pretty good until we can be really good.

They need to do what Ryan Poles did. Break it down and hoard as many picks as you can. Instead they operate very much like Ryan Pace. Always kicking the can down the road and in debt for a mediocre team. And the rare occasion that we actually do have our 1st round picks, they whiff on them (Patrick and Dalen). These guys literally are Ryan Pace.

[Betta Bulleavit]

Read on Twitter

Then what’s the point of this tweet then?

The man needs attention.

This is so stupid. Why take the time to tweet and talk about how the Bulls are idiots but then not say what the offer was? Is it really that much of a covert operation at this point?? Some people just need help.

[Stratmaster]

Huge difference between 64 and 61/59. Ridiculous take. Choose whatever parameters you like, all the numbers say Lauri is elite.

First of all, TS% doesn't even factor in three point attempts, Zach took 7+ 3pt'ers a game the last two years. If Zach scored the exact same amount of points, but shooting 4 free throws instead of 5.6, his TS% is 63.3. Which means he makes 1 more 2 pt shot and takes two less free throws. Yeah, that's a huge difference.

Zach's current trade value is zilch. If Lauri were to be traded today he would return 2-4 1sts and at least 1 young player with potential.

I've always liked Zach. Not sure what dragging him into this convo does.

If you think Lauri isn't at least 3rd team all-NBA caliber, then show me the numbers that back that up, because all the numbers point to him being a top 15 player. Throw TS% out the window and pick a different advanced metric.

The point is that a two season "franchise player" level performance doesn't make a player a franchise player. Carrying the team to the Finals does.

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[Stratmaster]

Well, first, that analogy is weird and inapt. But in any event, you're missing the forest for the trees. Regardless of how unlikely it is, exactly, all of the main prognostication models believe it is substantially unlikely that the Bulls will miss the playoffs. That's bad for a team that believes that it is "competitive."

I'm rooting for the Bulls to make the playoffs. I hope it happens. But the reality is that, despite better play of late, this is still a sub-.500 team with an abysmal record against good NBA teams that is going to have an uphill battle merely to get into the playoffs and lose in the first round.

No. The comment was that ESPN was bad at math. You then quoted others and said they weren't. That kind of variance in statistical analysis, if accepted, would mean we might as well just take a wild ass guess.

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The comment that ESPN was bad at "math" was weird in the first instance, since this isn't even a question of "math," but if you want to use the fact that one source thinks the Bulls have a 10% chance of making the playoffs and another source thinks it's 20% as a basis to argue the Bull have a good chance of making the playoffs, have at it, I guess.

That isn't what I was arguing, was it?

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[ScrantonBulls]

My wish as a fan is for the Bulls to win a championship. It's obvious that won't happen under AK. The only way I see changes happening is if the rest of the season is a disaster. I'm hoping the Bulls finish poorly so AK gets fired. It sucks to root for losses, but ultimately that is the best thing for this organization.

[SfBull]

PWill was a top 4 pick that AKME drafted, not GarPax like Coby, and his perceived "ceiling" is a lot higher than Coby's ever was until recently. Plus Pat has said he wants $20+ mil a year.

AKME loves Pat. I fully expected him to get that $20M+ per year contract. We bid against ourselves for Vuc, why wouldn't we do the same with Pat?

Killian Hayes was a top 7 pick and just got cut.

James Wiseman was a top 2 pick - is he getting $30m this summer??

The Vuc trade and re-signing has been bad, both in a vacuum, and within the context on this team.

Every other move has been good value, some have been good value but not the best fit.

AKME has shown absolutely zero ability to move on from poor moves. They'll double down like they've done over and over again. I would love to be proven wrong.

AKME views Pat as the future of this team. He's getting his bag, we should all prepare for it.

We're really screwed waiting for Pat being the future of the Bulls.

[Stratmaster]

I’m not championship or bust, but this team has ZERO hope of even dreaming about championship even if EVERYTHING fell correctly. Best case scenario is a first round exit every season. Not sure how you can be satisfied with that.

I'm not satisfied with that. I want to win championships. There just isn't a path to that right now. So in the meantime I'll enjoy this team for what it is...a nice mix of young talent and solid vets who enjoy playing basketball for the Chicago Bulls and the city of Chicago.

Additionally, nobody has suggested an alternative plan that would be any better. All that's been suggested is a reset. A teardown. Essentially the most unimaginative "plan" a franchise can have. Zero ideas on what the next steps look like. I'm not comfortable with a "plan" like that. Much more comfortable with changing the culture and league wide perception of the franchise. I think it's far more likely that course pays dividends then hope and pray on the lottery.

It's basically be bad until you can be good. I'd rather pretty good until we can be really good.

They need to do what Ryan Poles did. Break it down and hoard as many picks as you can. Instead they operate very much like Ryan Pace. Always kicking the can down the road and in debt for a mediocre team. And the rare occasion that we actually do have our 1st round picks, they whiff on them (Patrick and Dalen). These guys literally are Ryan Pace.

You mean figuratively Ryan Pace.

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[Dominator83]

I'm not satisfied with that. I want to win championships. There just isn't a path to that right now. So in the meantime I'll enjoy this team for what it is...a nice mix of young talent and solid vets who enjoy playing basketball for the Chicago Bulls and the city of Chicago.

Additionally, nobody has suggested an alternative plan that would be any better. All that's been suggested is a reset. A teardown. Essentially the most unimaginative "plan" a franchise can have. Zero ideas on what the next steps look like. I'm not comfortable with a "plan" like that. Much more comfortable with changing the culture and league wide perception of the franchise. I think it's far more likely that course pays dividends then hope and pray on the lottery.

It's basically be bad until you can be good. I'd rather pretty good until we can be really good.

They need to do what Ryan Poles did. Break it down and hoard as many picks as you can. Instead they operate very much like Ryan Pace. Always kicking the can down the road and in debt for a mediocre team. And the rare occasion that we actually do have our 1st round picks, they whiff on them (Patrick and Dalen). These guys literally are Ryan Pace.

You mean figuratively Ryan Pace.

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That too!

[GoBlue72391]

First of all, TS% doesn't even factor in three point attempts, Zach took 7+ 3pt'ers a game the last two years. If Zach scored the exact same amount of points, but shooting 4 free throws instead of 5.6, his TS% is 63.3. Which means he makes 1 more 2 pt shot and takes two less free throws. Yeah, that's a huge difference.

Zach's current trade value is zilch. If Lauri were to be traded today he would return 2-4 1sts and at least 1 young player with potential.

I've always liked Zach. Not sure what dragging him into this convo does.

If you think Lauri isn't at least 3rd team all-NBA caliber, then show me the numbers that back that up, because all the numbers point to him being a top 15 player. Throw TS% out the window and pick a different advanced metric.

Oh, I think Lauri is great. Just thought 64% was a very arbitrary number, wonder where that comes from. I support Zach too, this is not to knock down Zach, but lift up Lavine, lol. Lot of guys think he's useless, by most scoring metrics applied to player value, he should be a valuable player.

Pretty sure Zach's trade value being low is a result of his contract and injury, not his skill or ability to fit with a team.

I picked 64 TS% as the metric because that's what Lauri's TS% was last season. It's 65% this season. So it's not really arbitrary.

If Zach was in a better situation where he's next to a true superstar I think he would thrive and contribute to winning basketball and the narrative on him would change.

[Dominator83]

Killian Hayes was a top 7 pick and just got cut.

James Wiseman was a top 2 pick - is he getting $30m this summer??

The Vuc trade and re-signing has been bad, both in a vacuum, and within the context on this team.

Every other move has been good value, some have been good value but not the best fit.

AKME has shown absolutely zero ability to move on from poor moves. They'll double down like they've done over and over again. I would love to be proven wrong.

AKME views Pat as the future of this team. He's getting his bag, we should all prepare for it.

We're really screwed waiting for Pat being the future of the Bulls.

Even more screwed when he gets a raise. Hes not worth a cent more than Coby. In fact hes not even worth Coby. Pat is a guy that, despite being a bust, im OK with having on his current salary. But on a 2nd contract salary? no thanks

Much like when i kept saying a few years ago that i love Zach at $20M per, but i would hate Zach on a MAX deal. I said at the time there was zero potential for that to be a bargain, and tons of potential to be an albatross. That happened much faster than even i expected.

But back to Patrick, yea either Coby money or take a walk

[Stratmaster]

And to put an exclamation point on all of this, as we approached the deadline, our genius head coach was quoted as saying he would be very upset if anyone was traded.

As far as I am concerned, if the Bulls don't at least make a real playoff series and win a couple games in it Billy and AK should both resign. Since they won't, they should be fired.

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[SfBull]

I think an overlooked thing is that the perception of the Bulls online and in the media - doesn't seem to align with the perception of the Bulls amongst NBA players.

When Boylen was the coach we legit had other teams laughing at us, on camera during games.

Part of the Vuc, and especially DeRozan signings were about rehabilitating the image of the Bulls amongst NBA players. I think that has clearly been accomplished.

I don't care if Brian Windhorst thinks we're cool, or Duck (sorry to use you as an example Duck - you were the first poster that popped into mind).

I'll take Torrey Craig and Andre Drummonds seal of approval - two solid veteran NBA players that chose Chicago over multiple options - over the seal of approval from Ricky O'Donnel or some other blogger/podcaster who's finances are tied to clicks and listens (and we all know nothing sells like outrage - look at any news channel).

DeRozan sounds like a guy who wants to be here. Not a guy who's looking to run away as soon as the season is over. That's a BIG chance in the past three years.

Building up all this good will then throwing it away for a late first or some future distant seconds would have been stupid.

You want to understand AK - just look at the Nuggets.

From 2013-14 to 2017-18 they don't make the playoffs, and never win less than 30 games in a season.

2018-19: lost in the 2nd round
2019-20: lost in the conference finals
2020-21: lost in the 2nd round
2021-22: lost in the 1st round
2022-23: NBA Champions

This message board - without a doubt would be screaming for the team to blow it up after a first round exit in 2022. Posters left and right would be claiming the WCF run was a Bubble Fluke and that the team is regressing. Or that Murray and Porter are too injury proned.

This board is called RealGM - so I understand it might oversatuate in people who fancy themselves armchair General Managers. Making deals is fun - Daryl Morrey can't help himself (also never won anything). Morrey made trades for future 2nd today that directly help competing Eastern Conference teams. Those future 2nds will most likely never contribute anything of value for Morrey or the 76ers. But hey - TRADES!!

This Bulls team gets along with eachother, plays hard, and does have a number of emerging talents in Coby, Ayo, and yes even Patrick Williams (though no, I don't think he signs for $20mm in AAV)

The Bulls - after a disasterous start to the season have won 60% of their games over a 2+ month period.

Last year we won 60% of our games after the trade deadline and everyone says it doesn't count because it was in the last quarter of the season.

This year we win 60% of our games in December and January, and again nothing but excuses dismissing it.

This is a talented team. When you look at lineup data you always see that this team plays better with one of DeRozan or LaVine but not both. Well - now we get to test that our with some long-term data.

For you naysayers and malcontents - what level of success gets you to admit you were wrong and it was better to keep this team together?

A push to the 6th seed
A competitive 1st round playoff series
A first round playoff series victory
A competitive 2nd round playoff series

or does nothing the Bulls could accomplish this season make you think this is a team worth keeping together?

10 years is just too much time for a rebuilding and the Bulls never had players like Murray and especially a MVP quality player like Jokic who was a 2nd rounder,not sure if AK would have been so successful without these 2 guys.

[Dan Z]

You can't magically make Lonzo healthy, so whenever anyone calls this team mediocre his injury is part of it.

I know AK can't predict injuries, but he's had time to move in an different direction and refuses to do so.

How can he move on from it while still holding his contract? Not to mention every year but this one, Lonzo's been rumored to be coming back. Somehow magically ignore Lonzo's $20 mill cap hit and bring back an equivalent player without spending assets? Like it or not, until Lonzo's contract is off our books, he's a heavy anchor on acquisitions.

Which is a terrific reason to retool! If you're hamstrung by a $20 million dead slot in your salary cap, your options are either to go into the tax to try to make up for it or to seize upon the unfortunate news as an excuse to retool.

Exactly.

[Dan Z]

How can he move on from it while still holding his contract? Not to mention every year but this one, Lonzo's been rumored to be coming back. Somehow magically ignore Lonzo's $20 mill cap hit and bring back an equivalent player without spending assets? Like it or not, until Lonzo's contract is off our books, he's a heavy anchor on acquisitions.

Which is a terrific reason to retool! If you're hamstrung by a $20 million dead slot in your salary cap, your options are either to go into the tax to try to make up for it or to seize upon the unfortunate news as an excuse to retool.

The whole retool/reboot/tank argument makes a certain degree of sense in isolation, but IMO, AK is smart enough to know that his job will be a lot safer having a marginal playoff team than hoping the FO has the patience to wait 5 years to return to the playoffs with a hopefully better team.

The Bulls finished 10th last year and didn't make the playoffs. This year they're currently in 9th and there's a chance they won't make it again.

You think the Bulls should keep going in the same direction?

[SfBull]

I think an overlooked thing is that the perception of the Bulls online and in the media - doesn't seem to align with the perception of the Bulls amongst NBA players.

When Boylen was the coach we legit had other teams laughing at us, on camera during games.

Part of the Vuc, and especially DeRozan signings were about rehabilitating the image of the Bulls amongst NBA players. I think that has clearly been accomplished.

I don't care if Brian Windhorst thinks we're cool, or Duck (sorry to use you as an example Duck - you were the first poster that popped into mind).

I'll take Torrey Craig and Andre Drummonds seal of approval - two solid veteran NBA players that chose Chicago over multiple options - over the seal of approval from Ricky O'Donnel or some other blogger/podcaster who's finances are tied to clicks and listens (and we all know nothing sells like outrage - look at any news channel).

DeRozan sounds like a guy who wants to be here. Not a guy who's looking to run away as soon as the season is over. That's a BIG chance in the past three years.

Building up all this good will then throwing it away for a late first or some future distant seconds would have been stupid.

You want to understand AK - just look at the Nuggets.

From 2013-14 to 2017-18 they don't make the playoffs, and never win less than 30 games in a season.

2018-19: lost in the 2nd round
2019-20: lost in the conference finals
2020-21: lost in the 2nd round
2021-22: lost in the 1st round
2022-23: NBA Champions

This message board - without a doubt would be screaming for the team to blow it up after a first round exit in 2022. Posters left and right would be claiming the WCF run was a Bubble Fluke and that the team is regressing. Or that Murray and Porter are too injury proned.

This board is called RealGM - so I understand it might oversatuate in people who fancy themselves armchair General Managers. Making deals is fun - Daryl Morrey can't help himself (also never won anything). Morrey made trades for future 2nd today that directly help competing Eastern Conference teams. Those future 2nds will most likely never contribute anything of value for Morrey or the 76ers. But hey - TRADES!!

This Bulls team gets along with eachother, plays hard, and does have a number of emerging talents in Coby, Ayo, and yes even Patrick Williams (though no, I don't think he signs for $20mm in AAV)

The Bulls - after a disasterous start to the season have won 60% of their games over a 2+ month period.

Last year we won 60% of our games after the trade deadline and everyone says it doesn't count because it was in the last quarter of the season.

This year we win 60% of our games in December and January, and again nothing but excuses dismissing it.

This is a talented team. When you look at lineup data you always see that this team plays better with one of DeRozan or LaVine but not both. Well - now we get to test that our with some long-term data.

For you naysayers and malcontents - what level of success gets you to admit you were wrong and it was better to keep this team together?

A push to the 6th seed
A competitive 1st round playoff series
A first round playoff series victory
A competitive 2nd round playoff series

or does nothing the Bulls could accomplish this season make you think this is a team worth keeping together?

A talented team wouldn't be fighting for the 9th seed.

[Dan Z]

I have a question for the board:

If Coby didn't improve and the Bulls record was similar to the Hornets (10-40) would AKME move in a new direction? Or would they decide not to for whatever reason?

[_txchilibowl_]

I have a question for the board:

If Coby didn't improve and the Bulls record was similar to the Hornets (10-40) would AKME move in a new direction? Or would they decide not to for whatever reason?

If we were 10-40 I feel fairly confident we would be moving in a new direction. But we're not. So we didn't.

Do you have reason to believe that they would stand pat with a team that bad?

[WindyCityBorn]

We should re-sign him.

We won’t pay the luxury tax so something will have to give. Resigning DeRozan, Williams and Drummond will put us right at the tax line. So basically exact same team plus our draft picks.

I haven't reviewed the numbers but I expect they may stretch-waive Ball to avoid the tax. Also I don't expect Demar to make any more than he does now, nor do I expect Patrick to make more than about 14 mil/year at the most, maybe only MLE money or the QO, whatever that is. I think they may work a trade with Patrick as well. Also I'm not so sure we won't pay the tax. If we win at least two real playoff games in the first round against a top 4 team in the east, I think they'll consider paying tax.

Pat is getting more than $14 million. There are lots of bad teams with cap space. All it takes is one. Drummond is look probably looking at $8 to $10 million. I’d rather let Ball expire than stretch him, but we’ll see on that.

Bulls will never pay the tax for that isn’t at least in the conference finals. 1st round loss? No chance.

[Dan Z]

I have a question for the board:

If Coby didn't improve and the Bulls record was similar to the Hornets (10-40) would AKME move in a new direction? Or would they decide not to for whatever reason?

If we were 10-40 I feel fairly confident we would be moving in a new direction. But we're not. So we didn't.

Do you have reason to believe that they would stand pat with a team that bad?

Are you suggesting that they'd add a vet or two? Or are you saying that they'd trade someone like Caruso and Drummond and then try something different?

They haven't shown that they'd move in a new direction, so I'm not sure why they would if the team was 10-40. Every year they keep pushing for the play-in.