NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2023-24 (Part 4: MVP Thread's Revenge)

[Woodsanity]

Nuggets only have 3 players with positive bpm....

Without context, is this to say Jokic has less help or not making his teammates better?

The context is that his teammates outside of Murray and Aaron Gordon are incredibly subpar.

The crazy thing is that Jokic made even bums like Barton and Campazzo look somewhat serviceable and they played serious minutes. Barton was out of the league soon after he was off the Nuggets. Campazzo could not even get minutes on the Mavs....

[DutchManDanFan]

Read on Twitter

Didn't end any better either.

Giannis outplayed Jokic for the 2nd time. If it wasn't the worst possible b2b in Denver, the Bucks would have won both games.

I don't know who is leading the MVP race right now, but Giannis should definitely be in front of Jokic.

[Woodsanity]

Read on Twitter

Didn't end any better either.

Giannis outplayed Jokic for the 2nd time. If it wasn't the worst possible b2b in Denver, the Bucks would have won both games.

I don't know who is leading the MVP race right now, but Giannis should definitely be in front of Jokic.

Jokic outplayed Giannis more last game than Giannis did this game.

25/16/12/3 stl/2 blocks >>> 29/12/4/1 stl/1 blk

[dygaction]

Nuggets only have 3 players with positive bpm....

Without context, is this to say Jokic has less help or not making his teammates better?

The context is that his teammates outside of Murray and Aaron Gordon are incredibly subpar.

The crazy thing is that Jokic made even bums like Barton and Campazzo look somewhat serviceable and they played serious minutes. Barton was out of the league soon after he was off the Nuggets. Campazzo could not even get minutes on the Mavs....

Not sure how many positive BPMs in a team is a good number but Mavs are always at similar situation. Last year's #2 Dinwiddie and #3 Wood are playing at Lakers at league min, starting SG Bullock is not seeing the floor at Rockets, and starting center Powell is finally at league min playing less minutes. With that it took Luka's injury and Nico's tanking-for-pick strategy to miss the playoffs.

[AleksandarN]

I really believe the voting criteria his been skewed too far into statistical dominance. It used to be more equally weighted between team record and statistical excellence. If the standings remain the way they are, are we really going to give Jokic a 3rd MVP as a 4th seed? SGA's team didn't even make the playoffs last year and now he has his team 2nd in the conference a game behind the 1st seed. Like, that's almost unheard of. Under the previous voting criteria SGA would have been leading in a landslide actually.

Jokic has never had a top 2 seed in his MVP seasons and he's about to win his 3rd. I guess its partly because many people thought he should have won last year, which I understand, but it shouldn't be at the detriment of other deserving players leading their teams to better records in my opinion( if the standings remain as they are). Besides isn't the point of an MVP to lead your team to win games?

Jokic will likely win again, however if its as a 4th seed I really think the fans and media need to collectively re evaluate the way MVP voting is done.

He won't win it as a fourth seed. Nuggets also won't be the fourth seed when it's all said and done. They have one of the easiest schedules in the NBA after all-star break. They also only have 1 back to back left. 11 away games to 16 home games and only 1 back to back games remaining and that's at home. Nuggets will be fine

[CobraCommander]

Feels like the mvp today is Jokic at one followed by a wide gap by SGA and then wayyyyy behind those 2 Luka and Giannis- Then Tatum cause winning matters

[Doctor MJ]

New Bontemps straw poll has the following order:

1. Jokic (69 1st place votes)
2. Shai (24)
3. Giannis
4. Luka
5. Kawhi

[AleksandarN]

Nuggets only have 3 players with positive bpm....

Without context, is this to say Jokic has less help or not making his teammates better?

Well if you look at the stats when playing with Jokic and without you would see the impact he has on his teammates.

[AleksandarN]

Because Jokic is, unlike SGA, Denver's whole system, he's doing everything. His numbers could be even better, but he simply doesn't cares about his stats. You don't need any kind of stats to understand that he's the best player in the league.

You will see the difference in playoffs.

Would imagine that everyone is kind of sick of this excuse at this point. As if Jokic is the only superstar in the league that coasts in the regular season and "doesn't care about stats"....

agreed here. Cannot reward someone for cruise control, not care about something, injury concern, load management... if you are conditioning team for playoffs, there are rings and finals MPV to celebrate, leave the MVP to someone who works night in and night out. However, i don't think Jokic has been on cruise control or will given the seeding and competition in the west.

That narrative is old and false. Take yesterdays game for instance. Jokic was the only one who showed up and tried. He didn't coast the rest of his teammates did. It is frustrating all season seeing the inconsistent effort and production from his teammates. Jokic brings it almost every night

[Doctor MJ]

Feels like the mvp today is Jokic at one followed by a wide gap by SGA and then wayyyyy behind those 2 Luka and Giannis- Then Tatum cause winning matters

I don't think there's actually a wide gap between Jokic & Shai.

I also think that while Giannis & Luka are next on the latest straw poll, Kawhi is the guy I could see gaining momentum if the Clippers get the top seed in the West.

[AleksandarN]

Read on Twitter

Didn't end any better either.

Giannis outplayed Jokic for the 2nd time. If it wasn't the worst possible b2b in Denver, the Bucks would have won both games.

I don't know who is leading the MVP race right now, but Giannis should definitely be in front of Jokic.

Giannis didn't out played Jokic the first game. What are you talking about

[Woodsanity]

Without context, is this to say Jokic has less help or not making his teammates better?

The context is that his teammates outside of Murray and Aaron Gordon are incredibly subpar.

The crazy thing is that Jokic made even bums like Barton and Campazzo look somewhat serviceable and they played serious minutes. Barton was out of the league soon after he was off the Nuggets. Campazzo could not even get minutes on the Mavs....

Not sure how many positive BPMs in a team is a good number but Mavs are always at similar situation. Last year's #2 Dinwiddie and #3 Wood are playing at Lakers at league min, starting SG Bullock is not seeing the floor at Rockets, and starting center Powell is finally at league min playing less minutes. With that it took Luka's injury and Nico's tanking-for-pick strategy to miss the playoffs.

Luka doesn't have much talent either. 4 players with positive bpm (not counting guys who barely play).

Same for Giannis.

OKC has the most talent out of the serious MVP contenders with 6 players with positive bpm.

[Bob8]

Feels like the mvp today is Jokic at one followed by a wide gap by SGA and then wayyyyy behind those 2 Luka and Giannis- Then Tatum cause winning matters

I don't think there's actually a wide gap between Jokic & Shai.

I also think that while Giannis & Luka are next on the latest straw poll, Kawhi is the guy I could see gaining momentum if the Clippers get the top seed in the West.

That would be even bigger joke than SGA. Do you know that Kawhi, George and Harden have almost identical, crazy good, +/-; on/off? Who is the most impactful of those 3?

[iggymcfrack]

Read on Twitter

Didn't end any better either.

Giannis outplayed Jokic for the 2nd time. If it wasn't the worst possible b2b in Denver, the Bucks would have won both games.

I don't know who is leading the MVP race right now, but Giannis should definitely be in front of Jokic.

In the game in Denver which the Nuggets won by 6, Jokic had a game score of 25.7 and an on/off of +9 while Giannis had a game score of 23.4 and an on/off of -3. Saying that Giannis outplayed him twice is nonsense. And trying to decide the MVP race by 2 H2H games which were split is even more nonsensical.

[Ron Swanson]

SGA:

1st in total points
1st in total steals and SPG
1st in total Win Shares and WS/48
1st in EPM
Better record (yes, it's only by a game)
+11.1 ON, +12.2 On/Off
30.6 PER
10.1 BPM
165.7 TS-added
3/1 Assist/TO ratio

Jokic:

1st in BPM (14.0)
1st in VORP (7.1)
4th in EPM
31.6 PER
+9.0 ON, +17.3 On/Off
143.5 TS-added
3/1 Assist/TO ratio

Again, we can't keep using the advanced stats argument with Jokic when he no longer is.....dominating the advanced stats. SGA's numbers are even more crazy when you consider the flaws of all-in-one efficiency box stats like PER and BPM, i.e. he's not padding either with DBPM and rebounding totals as a 6'6 guard.

[Special_Puppy]

SGA:

1st in total points
1st in total steals and SPG
1st in total Win Shares and WS/48
1st in EPM
Better record (yes, it's only by a game)
+11.1 ON, +12.2 On/Off
30.6 PER
10.1 BPM
165.7 TS-added
3/1 Assist/TO ratio

Jokic:

1st in BPM (14.0)
1st in VORP (7.1)
4th in EPM
31.6 PER
+9.0 ON, +17.3 On/Off
143.5 TS-added
3/1 Assist/TO ratio

Again, we can't keep using the advanced stats argument with Jokic when he no longer is.....dominating the advanced stats. SGA's numbers are even more crazy when you consider the flaws of all-in-one efficiency box stats like PER and BPM, i.e. he's not padding either with DBPM and rebounding totals.

Jokic also ahead in DPM, Time-Decay RAPM, and LEBRON. Giannis is just barely ahead in LEBRON WAR though. Stats are noisy enough that you could argue for SGA, Giannis, Luka, or Jokic for MVP

[iggymcfrack]

SGA:

1st in total points
1st in total steals and SPG
1st in total Win Shares and WS/48
1st in EPM
Better record (yes, it's only by a game)
+11.1 ON, +12.2 On/Off
30.6 PER
10.1 BPM
165.7 TS-added
3/1 Assist/TO ratio

Jokic:

1st in BPM (14.0)
1st in VORP (7.1)
4th in EPM
31.6 PER
+9.0 ON, +17.3 On/Off
143.5 TS-added
3/1 Assist/TO ratio

Again, we can't keep using the advanced stats argument with Jokic when he no longer is.....dominating the advanced stats. SGA's numbers are even more crazy when you consider the flaws of all-in-one efficiency box stats like PER and BPM, i.e. he's not padding either with DBPM and rebounding totals.

I’m pretty sure most of the people who are big on advanced stats have Jokić and SGA as a close 1 and 2. I know I certainly do.

[CobraCommander]

Feels like the mvp today is Jokic at one followed by a wide gap by SGA and then wayyyyy behind those 2 Luka and Giannis- Then Tatum cause winning matters

I don't think there's actually a wide gap between Jokic & Shai.

I also think that while Giannis & Luka are next on the latest straw poll, Kawhi is the guy I could see gaining momentum if the Clippers get the top seed in the West.

Maybe you are right -but as it stands Jokic is the fav and reining champ that got stiffed last year...making him the people and the writers choice- plus he is universally considered the best player on earth regardless of if Embiid or Giannis or Luka or SGA out play him...he is just the guy right now...period.

For SGA to over take him SGA gonna have to be amazing down the stretch and OKC gotta win a lot of games...maybe be in first... if SGA was American and played for the lakers or Boston it would be closer lol


Kawhi may be in the running cause he “needs one” but he is 5th in a 5 man race and I think the Boston voters have Tatum ahead of him -

[CobraCommander]

SGA:

1st in total points
1st in total steals and SPG
1st in total Win Shares and WS/48
1st in EPM
Better record (yes, it's only by a game)
+11.1 ON, +12.2 On/Off
30.6 PER
10.1 BPM
165.7 TS-added
3/1 Assist/TO ratio

Jokic:

1st in BPM (14.0)
1st in VORP (7.1)
4th in EPM
31.6 PER
+9.0 ON, +17.3 On/Off
143.5 TS-added
3/1 Assist/TO ratio

Again, we can't keep using the advanced stats argument with Jokic when he no longer is.....dominating the advanced stats. SGA's numbers are even more crazy when you consider the flaws of all-in-one efficiency box stats like PER and BPM, i.e. he's not padding either with DBPM and rebounding totals.

Jokic also ahead in DPM, Time-Decay RAPM, and LEBRON. Giannis is just barely ahead in LEBRON WAR though. Stats are noisy enough that you could argue for SGA, Giannis, Luka, or Jokic for MVP

I don’t know how anyone with advance stat understanding goes anyone over Jokic...

[Bob8]

SGA:

1st in total points
1st in total steals and SPG
1st in total Win Shares and WS/48
1st in EPM
Better record (yes, it's only by a game)
+11.1 ON, +12.2 On/Off
30.6 PER
10.1 BPM
165.7 TS-added
3/1 Assist/TO ratio

Jokic:

1st in BPM (14.0)
1st in VORP (7.1)
4th in EPM
31.6 PER
+9.0 ON, +17.3 On/Off
143.5 TS-added
3/1 Assist/TO ratio

Again, we can't keep using the advanced stats argument with Jokic when he no longer is.....dominating the advanced stats. SGA's numbers are even more crazy when you consider the flaws of all-in-one efficiency box stats like PER and BPM, i.e. he's not padding either with DBPM and rebounding totals.

Jokic also ahead in DPM, Time-Decay RAPM, and LEBRON. Giannis is just barely ahead in LEBRON WAR though. Stats are noisy enough that you could argue for SGA, Giannis, Luka, or Jokic for MVP

I don’t know how anyone with advance stat understanding goes anyone over Jokic...

That's the biggest problem with advanced stats, you don't need to watch games anymore.