Tank World Order (The Remix Vol. IV)

[DelAbbot]

Boyz N The Hood told me the trades made no difference, we’ll keep our pick and that “you don’t know basketball” if you think differently. Interesting lol

Masai's trades made no difference? So he thinks Masai makes no difference?

[DelAbbot]

Best hope is to land a high upside guy in '25 draft at this point. Looks deep enough that a pick in 11-15 range could still do it.

They will go for it next year, and run a repeat of 2021/2022. The similarities are striking

[ArthurVandelay]

Best hope is to land a high upside guy in '25 draft at this point. Looks deep enough that a pick in 11-15 range could still do it.

They will go for it next year, and run a repeat of 2021/2022. The similarities are striking

How so?

It feels like a blend of 2012-2013 & 2013-2014 seasons for me.

This is asset accumulation and player development time.

[OakleyDokely]

If the Raps are any good next year it's because their existing young guys and their incoming rookies took a big step forward. The only real "vets" left in the rotation are the Cs. It's going to come down to how well Barnes, IQ, Barrett, Dick, Ochai, the rookies play.

[DelAbbot]

If the Raps are any good next year it's because their existing young guys and their incoming rookies took a big step forward. The only real "vets" left in the rotation are the Cs. It's going to come down to how well Barnes, IQ, Barrett, Dick, Ochai, the rookies play.

[OakleyDokely]

If the Raps are any good next year it's because their existing young guys and their incoming rookies took a big step forward. The only real "vets" left in the rotation are the Cs. It's going to come down to how well Barnes, IQ, Barrett, Dick, Ochai, the rookies play.

If our young guys fail bigly, we will get a very good pick. Not sure that's a positive thing though.

They might just lose a lot of games because of youth and experience, but it's still important all these guys show growth, otherwise you become DET and WAS.

[Scase]

If the Raps are any good next year it's because their existing young guys and their incoming rookies took a big step forward. The only real "vets" left in the rotation are the Cs. It's going to come down to how well Barnes, IQ, Barrett, Dick, Ochai, the rookies play.

If our young guys fail bigly, we will get a very good pick. Not sure that's a positive thing though.

They might just lose a lot of games because of youth and experience, but it's still important all these guys show growth, otherwise you become DET and WAS.

I think what he is trying to say is that them getting good enough is a problem. The team lacks high end talent, and RJ/IQ are not predicted to turn into ALL NBA level players, so if they end up good enough to push us into first round exit territory, you end up with a mid pick, that in most cases becomes a mid player, and the cycle continues.

It's why a large portion of people wanted a hard tank for a year or two to get shots at top flight talent. If the team steadily improves, that is not in the cards, which can lead to treadmilling. Hence the "feelings of 2021/22" comment.

The last time Masai saw even a glimmer of hope he doubled down on a bad team.

[WuTang_CMB]

If the Raps are any good next year it's because their existing young guys and their incoming rookies took a big step forward. The only real "vets" left in the rotation are the Cs. It's going to come down to how well Barnes, IQ, Barrett, Dick, Ochai, the rookies play.

I think Gradey starts next season.

IQ
Gradey
RJ
Scottie
Poeltl

I dont know what you guys think but I still feel they need one more high ceiling guy. Preferably a wing scorer that can create. I like what RJ has done thus far since joining us but that shot and FT is worrisome.

[OakleyDokely]

If our young guys fail bigly, we will get a very good pick. Not sure that's a positive thing though.

They might just lose a lot of games because of youth and experience, but it's still important all these guys show growth, otherwise you become DET and WAS.

I think what he is trying to say is that them getting good enough is a problem. The team lacks high end talent, and RJ/IQ are not predicted to turn into ALL NBA level players, so if they end up good enough to push us into first round exit territory, you end up with a mid pick, that in most cases becomes a mid player, and the cycle continues.

It's why a large portion of people wanted a hard tank for a year or two to get shots at top flight talent. If the team steadily improves, that is not in the cards, which can lead to treadmilling. Hence the "feelings of 2021/22" comment.

The last time Masai saw even a glimmer of hope he doubled down on a bad team.

But they aren't good yet. They're 22-36 and currently sitting 7th last. You can collect assets while still maintaining a quality draft position. As long as they don't go out and start adding big money, big minute vets and play them ahead of the young guys.

In terms of this current draft, I doubt you'd be getting a prospect that ends up much better than IQ or Barrett. Even if the Raps land the #1 pick, which elite talent would they be adding? They'd add a good prospect for sure, but chances are, that player isn't going to be a high end, all-nba talent. There isn't a Wemby or even a Zion in this draft class.

[ArthurVandelay]

If the Raps are any good next year it's because their existing young guys and their incoming rookies took a big step forward. The only real "vets" left in the rotation are the Cs. It's going to come down to how well Barnes, IQ, Barrett, Dick, Ochai, the rookies play.

2014-2019 disagrees

Steady development of players
Acquire assets
Be opportunistic
Patience

It’s like people forget the recipe from the last time. Further proof that people never learn from history and people never change.

[DelAbbot]

If the Raps are any good next year it's because their existing young guys and their incoming rookies took a big step forward. The only real "vets" left in the rotation are the Cs. It's going to come down to how well Barnes, IQ, Barrett, Dick, Ochai, the rookies play.

2014-2019 disagrees

Steady development of players
Acquire assets
Be opportunistic
Patience

It’s like people forget the recipe from the last time. Further proof that people never learn from history and people never change.

You are not framing this correctly.. Look at OKC, they reset hard and got Jalen Williams and Chet through draft as high end prospects.

The 2014-2019 only got that high end player Kawhi on a rental - and it was a once a decade heist. Gasol was also gettable that year because he's in the final decline years - we accumulated lots of CHEAP (valuable) assets and sold them for a single push for championship. Now we have assets who are on their 2nd or 3rd contracts (not CHEAP/as valuable), and besides Barnes no one has the high potential as Kawhi or Lowry.

This book title expresses how I view this team - it's going to be good (enough for 1st round) but has a definite ceiling - and it's being good will delude Masai to go for compete too early again and cause us to fall short of great

[OakleyDokely]

2014-2019 disagrees

Steady development of players
Acquire assets
Be opportunistic
Patience

It’s like people forget the recipe from the last time. Further proof that people never learn from history and people never change.

You are not framing this correctly.. Look at OKC, they reset hard and got Jalen Williams and Chet through draft as high end prospects.

The 2014-2019 only got that high end player Kawhi on a rental - and it was a once a decade heist. Gasol was also gettable that year because he's in the final decline years - we accumulated lots of CHEAP (valuable) assets and sold them for a single push for championship. Now we have assets who are on their 2nd or 3rd contracts (not CHEAP/as valuable), and besides Barnes no one has the high potential as Kawhi or Lowry.

This book title expresses how I view this team - it's going to be good (enough for 1st round) but has a definite ceiling - and it's being good will delude Masai to go for compete too early again and cause us to fall short of great

Williams was taken 12th though. That's just good drafting. And their best player Shai was acquired via trade and he was also drafted outside the top 10. Only Chet was used with a high pick.

[Scase]

If our young guys fail bigly, we will get a very good pick. Not sure that's a positive thing though.

They might just lose a lot of games because of youth and experience, but it's still important all these guys show growth, otherwise you become DET and WAS.

I think what he is trying to say is that them getting good enough is a problem. The team lacks high end talent, and RJ/IQ are not predicted to turn into ALL NBA level players, so if they end up good enough to push us into first round exit territory, you end up with a mid pick, that in most cases becomes a mid player, and the cycle continues.

It's why a large portion of people wanted a hard tank for a year or two to get shots at top flight talent. If the team steadily improves, that is not in the cards, which can lead to treadmilling. Hence the "feelings of 2021/22" comment.

The last time Masai saw even a glimmer of hope he doubled down on a bad team.

But they aren't good yet. They're 22-36 and currently sitting 7th last. You can collect assets while still maintaining a quality draft position. As long as they don't go out and start adding big money, big minute vets and play them ahead of the young guys.

In terms of this current draft, I doubt you'd be getting a prospect that ends up much better than IQ or Barrett. Even if the Raps land the #1 pick, which elite talent would they be adding? They'd add a good prospect for sure, but chances are, that player isn't going to be a high end, all-nba talent. There isn't a Wemby or even a Zion in this draft class.

Adding another IQ/RJ level player is still a good thing though, it's how we ended up making the trades for the chip. You get enough good talent level players, and you condense them into higher level talent.

Pushing for a play in spot after blowing the team up in the same year isn't exactly a recipe for success.

If the Raps are any good next year it's because their existing young guys and their incoming rookies took a big step forward. The only real "vets" left in the rotation are the Cs. It's going to come down to how well Barnes, IQ, Barrett, Dick, Ochai, the rookies play.

2014-2019 disagrees

Steady development of players
Acquire assets
Be opportunistic
Patience

It’s like people forget the recipe from the last time. Further proof that people never learn from history and people never change.

2014-2019 was built off the back of tanking for assets. The championship was only a reality because of those assets. We traded 3 top 10 picked players and a top 5 picked player. You need those players to develop in the first place.

The chip team was able to move said players and still field a competitive team, it's why so many people were against the KD/Dame trades. We should be acquiring assets now, not trying to push for a play in spot.

Pacers are trending upwards to make our pick worse, and we are trending upwards to remove any chance of us retaining our own pick, that's not being opportunistic, or acquiring assets, and patience was thrown out the window with the Jak trade.

So we're left with a team that realistically only has 3 legit players, a couple of questions marks, and then a bunch of dead weight. That's not what 2014-19 was.

[DelAbbot]

Rename that book and send it to Masai

Premature E is the enemy of O

[OakleyDokely]

I think what he is trying to say is that them getting good enough is a problem. The team lacks high end talent, and RJ/IQ are not predicted to turn into ALL NBA level players, so if they end up good enough to push us into first round exit territory, you end up with a mid pick, that in most cases becomes a mid player, and the cycle continues.

It's why a large portion of people wanted a hard tank for a year or two to get shots at top flight talent. If the team steadily improves, that is not in the cards, which can lead to treadmilling. Hence the "feelings of 2021/22" comment.

The last time Masai saw even a glimmer of hope he doubled down on a bad team.

But they aren't good yet. They're 22-36 and currently sitting 7th last. You can collect assets while still maintaining a quality draft position. As long as they don't go out and start adding big money, big minute vets and play them ahead of the young guys.

In terms of this current draft, I doubt you'd be getting a prospect that ends up much better than IQ or Barrett. Even if the Raps land the #1 pick, which elite talent would they be adding? They'd add a good prospect for sure, but chances are, that player isn't going to be a high end, all-nba talent. There isn't a Wemby or even a Zion in this draft class.

Adding another IQ/RJ level player is still a good thing though, it's how we ended up making the trades for the chip. You get enough good talent level players, and you condense them into higher level talent.

Pushing for a play in spot after blowing the team up in the same year isn't exactly a recipe for success.

I don't see it as them pushing for the play-in though. Since the OG trade, the team is 10-16, which is a 50 loss team. If they held onto OG or Siakam, that would be a push for the play-in direction. 6 of the 9 guys they played last night are 25 or younger, they aren't built to win consistently right now.

[Scase]

But they aren't good yet. They're 22-36 and currently sitting 7th last. You can collect assets while still maintaining a quality draft position. As long as they don't go out and start adding big money, big minute vets and play them ahead of the young guys.

In terms of this current draft, I doubt you'd be getting a prospect that ends up much better than IQ or Barrett. Even if the Raps land the #1 pick, which elite talent would they be adding? They'd add a good prospect for sure, but chances are, that player isn't going to be a high end, all-nba talent. There isn't a Wemby or even a Zion in this draft class.

Adding another IQ/RJ level player is still a good thing though, it's how we ended up making the trades for the chip. You get enough good talent level players, and you condense them into higher level talent.

Pushing for a play in spot after blowing the team up in the same year isn't exactly a recipe for success.

I don't see it as them pushing for the play-in though. Since the OG trade, the team is 10-16, which is a 50 loss team. If they held onto OG or Siakam, that would be a push for the play-in direction. 6 of the 9 guys they played last night are 25 or younger, they aren't built to win consistently right now.

Keeping brown and picking up KO/keeping Jak, coupled with how Masai has handled this type of situation in the past, is enough evidence I need to assume it's groundhog day.

Maybe I'm wrong, and I would be happy to be, but I am just not seeing it.

[OakleyDokely]

Adding another IQ/RJ level player is still a good thing though, it's how we ended up making the trades for the chip. You get enough good talent level players, and you condense them into higher level talent.

Pushing for a play in spot after blowing the team up in the same year isn't exactly a recipe for success.

I don't see it as them pushing for the play-in though. Since the OG trade, the team is 10-16, which is a 50 loss team. If they held onto OG or Siakam, that would be a push for the play-in direction. 6 of the 9 guys they played last night are 25 or younger, they aren't built to win consistently right now.

Keeping brown and picking up KO/keeping Jak, coupled with how Masai has handled this type of situation in the past, is enough evidence I need to assume it's groundhog day.

Maybe I'm wrong, and I would be happy to be, but I am just not seeing it.

I do think they should've moved Brown but it's hard to say without really knowing what the offers were. Hopefully they can absorb some contracts in the offseason in order to add more assets for him.

I prefer to have a competent C rotation because in the end, that just helps Scottie.

Despite the recent win streak, I'm not confident that they will racking up a lot of wins to end the season regardless of the deadline moves, but we will see.

[DelAbbot]

Adding another IQ/RJ level player is still a good thing though, it's how we ended up making the trades for the chip. You get enough good talent level players, and you condense them into higher level talent.

Pushing for a play in spot after blowing the team up in the same year isn't exactly a recipe for success.

I don't see it as them pushing for the play-in though. Since the OG trade, the team is 10-16, which is a 50 loss team. If they held onto OG or Siakam, that would be a push for the play-in direction. 6 of the 9 guys they played last night are 25 or younger, they aren't built to win consistently right now.

Keeping brown and picking up KO/keeping Jak, coupled with how Masai has handled this type of situation in the past, is enough evidence I need to assume it's groundhog day.

Maybe I'm wrong, and I would be happy to be, but I am just not seeing it.

The action of keeping Brown and getting KO means they will push for compete the first sign they get next season.

[ArthurVandelay]

2014-2019 disagrees

Steady development of players
Acquire assets
Be opportunistic
Patience

It’s like people forget the recipe from the last time. Further proof that people never learn from history and people never change.

You are not framing this correctly.. Look at OKC, they reset hard and got Jalen Williams and Chet through draft as high end prospects.

The 2014-2019 only got that high end player Kawhi on a rental - and it was a once a decade heist. Gasol was also gettable that year because he's in the final decline years - we accumulated lots of CHEAP (valuable) assets and sold them for a single push for championship. Now we have assets who are on their 2nd or 3rd contracts (not CHEAP/as valuable), and besides Barnes no one has the high potential as Kawhi or Lowry.

This book title expresses how I view this team - it's going to be good (enough for 1st round) but has a definite ceiling - and it's being good will delude Masai to go for compete too early again and cause us to fall short of great

Kawhi was drafted 15th
Giannis 13
Williams 12
Shai 11/12/13 I can’t remember
Jokic 42

This is such an old debate. I’m not framing it correctly or I’ve presented a different perspective/reality than what you’ve imagined? There is more than one way to build a championship and you don’t need to bottom out to do so.

Also what Raptors team did you follow 2014-2019? The only rookie deals the Raptors traded before Poeltl with Kawhi was Delon Wright to get Gasol. They traded Ross and a first to get Ibaka. The team was built around a 25 year and a 27 year versus now building around a 22/23/24 year old BBQ core. It was 3 years (2017) before win now trades were made for Ibaka and Tucker.

You have yourself convinced you are Nostradamus. Sit back and enjoy the ride. None of us can predict the future. IMO if this style of play continues, this team is the most entertaining to watch since the championship, and realistically they just started the rebuild 2 months ago. I always thought this was supposed to be entertainment and, other than competing for a championship, what better entertainment for a basketball fan than watching a team develop and players grow (insert Dick joke here).

[YogurtProducer]

2014-2019 disagrees

Steady development of players
Acquire assets
Be opportunistic
Patience

It’s like people forget the recipe from the last time. Further proof that people never learn from history and people never change.

You are not framing this correctly.. Look at OKC, they reset hard and got Jalen Williams and Chet through draft as high end prospects.

The 2014-2019 only got that high end player Kawhi on a rental - and it was a once a decade heist. Gasol was also gettable that year because he's in the final decline years - we accumulated lots of CHEAP (valuable) assets and sold them for a single push for championship. Now we have assets who are on their 2nd or 3rd contracts (not CHEAP/as valuable), and besides Barnes no one has the high potential as Kawhi or Lowry.

This book title expresses how I view this team - it's going to be good (enough for 1st round) but has a definite ceiling - and it's being good will delude Masai to go for compete too early again and cause us to fall short of great

Williams was taken 12th though. That's just good drafting. And their best player Shai was acquired via trade and he was also drafted outside the top 10. Only Chet was used with a high pick.

And lets be honest... if they dont get SGA in that trade that team is in the lottery still.