OT: NFL 23-24 Season thread 2

[mpharris36]

in the early 2000's racism against black QBs was rampant. you remember the talks of having them work out at the combine as WRs because they didn't have the "mental capacity" to play qb at a high level. just because everyone in the league was racist does not absolve the giants of the same. don't forget even lamar not that long ago was asked to work out at wr. it's great that the league is finally moving a good direction though

we could have just not drafted daniel jones and went with another position at the time. the same way we can this year as well. but of course, we had to reach for one.

we went through mcadoo, shurmur and joe judge. no one even knew who joe judge was but we gave him a shot. just saying we never gave a black HC a shot.

I 100% agree with you about that in the early 2000's....which proves my point. It was a league wide issue where the league really didn't buy into black QB's outside of the few outliers there weren't as many being developed and produced at a college level so it took the likes of McNair/McNabb (outside of Cunningham obviously) and others to really jump start black QB's not being moved to other positions and developed at QB.

Like you said the good thing is obviously going in the right direction.

The first 3 QB's in 2023 were black
The likely first 2 QB's off the board this year are black

Clearly there is a positive shift to now if a team is looking for a new QB you obviously have more of a pool to select from.

yes but once again that DOES NOT absolve the giants and the league of racism.

the fact that we were the last team in the league to start a black qb, the last team to have a black qb win a game, one of the few teams left that have never had a black hc says something. this team and org do not deserve the benefit of the doubt.

I just think that is more happen stance because we have had a stable QB situation before the league started to be more open to black QB's (im not absolving them just being realistic we had no need for a QB from like 2000 to 2020...we were lucky to have QB locked down for all those years when teams that cycle through QB's have more of a chance to do what you said.

Clearly there was an issue in the league from the early 2000's and before...we just have had a stable QB for nearly the entire time after that when things started to change.

Your only potential opportunity was the Daniel Jones situation which I wanted Josh Allen and not a QB...but Gettleman made a lot of poor decisions...

[Ghetto Gospel]

also ironic, that ben mcadoo and pat shurmur get hired, but they have nothing to do with bill belichick. but as soon as it's joe judge it's well, mara enamored with the bill belichick coaching tree

[mpharris36]

well you are correct there...the one thing the Mara's fall over is there love for Belichick and the Patriots...his coaching tree sucks too its just they love Bill Parcels and BB and think we should follow that mold of HC so when a guy from that tree gets the full support of BB I feel like our organization bends of backwards for them when its just the wrong decision because BB ran the entire ship there and his understudies really are not prepared to run an organization because they don't have the cache to coach like BB.

well brian flores is also in that bill belichick tree but of course, he doesn't "fit the mold"

MPH you gonna had to fall back after this one.

How am I going to fall back? Wasn't it well known Mara wanted Flores? I think Flores was the runner up for the job. They liked him enough where Mara's nephew texted him out of pocket to go kill the interview...I think if you ask me Mara wanted Flores...Schoen wanted his guy which was Daboll.

Mara couldn't overrule his recent GM hire or that would have been a bad look.

[mpharris36]

also ironic, that ben mcadoo and pat shurmur get hired, but they have nothing to do with bill belichick. but as soon as it's joe judge it's well, mara enamored with the bill belichick coaching tree

Mara wanted Flores

Read on Twitter

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[Ghetto Gospel]

also ironic, that ben mcadoo and pat shurmur get hired, but they have nothing to do with bill belichick. but as soon as it's joe judge it's well, mara enamored with the bill belichick coaching tree

Mara wanted Flores

Read on Twitter

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then hire him. all talk no action, always an excuse not to hire the black HC and always a reason to hire the white HC

[TerrenceClarke]

well brian flores is also in that bill belichick tree but of course, he doesn't "fit the mold"

MPH you gonna had to fall back after this one.

How am I going to fall back? Wasn't it well known Mara wanted Flores? I think Flores was the runner up for the job. They liked him enough where Mara's nephew texted him out of pocket to go kill the interview...I think if you ask me Mara wanted Flores...Schoen wanted his guy which was Daboll.

Mara couldn't overrule his recent GM hire or that would have been a bad look.

How do you know this was not posturing by Mara. Your the one taking this on face value that Mara was being honest.

Its simple math. If he wanted Flores you get flores.

Owners pick who the coaches are in the NFL all the time. Mara wanted Judge and Got Judge....

Nah. Im not taking this on face value.

Mara new Getty was gone and called him the number 1 candiate only to shaft the dude?

The logic aint logicing here.

If we take this on face value then no matter who the GM was....he was going to hire flores.

The mara were hearing the whispers about not hiring black coaches and just got in front of it...with fake news.

Come on my dude....you know damn well NFL teams have been playing the loop holes with Rooney rule for years...

This just another example.

If you wanted him....

YOU HAD him...

**** what schoen wants....

he would have still took the Job even if he had to go with Flores.... and if he didnt....he could of kick rocks....

[mpharris36]

also ironic, that ben mcadoo and pat shurmur get hired, but they have nothing to do with bill belichick. but as soon as it's joe judge it's well, mara enamored with the bill belichick coaching tree

Mara wanted Flores

Read on Twitter

?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1489015482967638018%7Ctwgr%5E2e920443168aba6c80c64743dc28a7447a8921a0%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.redditmedia.com%2Fmediaembed%2Fsj3pb7%2F%3Fresponsive%3Dtrueis_nightmode%3Dfalse

then hire him. all talk no action, always an excuse not to hire the black HC and always a reason to hire the white HC

he let his GM make the hire...which everyone criticized Mara for always staying with his circle. Ernie, Reese, Gentleman. He finally didn't have a connection to Schoen and would have looked horrible if he overstepped and didn't let his new GM pick the coach he wanted.

[Ghetto Gospel]

Mara wanted Flores

Read on Twitter

?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1489015482967638018%7Ctwgr%5E2e920443168aba6c80c64743dc28a7447a8921a0%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.redditmedia.com%2Fmediaembed%2Fsj3pb7%2F%3Fresponsive%3Dtrueis_nightmode%3Dfalse

then hire him. all talk no action, always an excuse not to hire the black HC and always a reason to hire the white HC

he let his GM make the hire...which everyone criticized Mara for always staying with his circle. Ernie, Reese, Gentleman. He finally didn't have a connection to Schoen and would have looked horrible if he overstepped and didn't let his new GM pick the coach he wanted.

okay but he willing to hire joe judge right? he enamored? why is there always an excuse?

let's be real here. john mara an old rich white guy, lets not pretend like we ain't know the deal

[mpharris36]

MPH you gonna had to fall back after this one.

How am I going to fall back? Wasn't it well known Mara wanted Flores? I think Flores was the runner up for the job. They liked him enough where Mara's nephew texted him out of pocket to go kill the interview...I think if you ask me Mara wanted Flores...Schoen wanted his guy which was Daboll.

Mara couldn't overrule his recent GM hire or that would have been a bad look.

How do you know this was not posturing by Mara. Your the one taking this on face value that Mara was being honest.

Its simple math. If he wanted Flores you get flores.

Owners pick who the coaches are in the NFL all the time. Mara wanted Judge and Got Judge....

Nah. Im not taking this on face value.

Mara new Getty was gone and called him the number 1 candiate only to shaft the dude?

The logic aint logicing here.

If we take this on face value then no matter who the GM was....he was going to hire flores.

The mara were hearing the whispers about not hiring black coaches and just got in front of it...with fake news.

Come on my dude....you know damn well NFL teams have been playing the loop holes with Rooney rule for years...

This just another example.

If you wanted him....

YOU HAD him...

**** what schoen wants....

he would have still took the Job even if he had to go with Flores.... and if he didnt....he could of kick rocks....

f*ck what Schoen wants? Thats a great start for the new guy running your organization.

The one issue everyone said is Mara meddles too much...he finally hires outside his circle with Schoen and his first big decision he tells Schoen to sit down this is the coach I'm hiring....that would have looked good.

You hired Schoen first you either trust him to make the decisions or you don't.

And yes I'm aware there are def sham interviews for the Rooney rule. But that is why Flores claims went absolutely nowhere...because it wasn't a sham interview.

Mara originally wanted Flores

Schoen wanted to bring in the guy he had the working relationship with...Mara let Schoen make his hire or he would have looked really bad overstepping his new GM.

[mpharris36]

then hire him. all talk no action, always an excuse not to hire the black HC and always a reason to hire the white HC

he let his GM make the hire...which everyone criticized Mara for always staying with his circle. Ernie, Reese, Gentleman. He finally didn't have a connection to Schoen and would have looked horrible if he overstepped and didn't let his new GM pick the coach he wanted.

okay but he willing to hire joe judge right? he enamored? why is there always an excuse?

let's be real here. john mara an old rich white guy, lets not pretend like we ain't know the deal

different situations because Gettleman was a sham hire because he was with the organization and Mara was still controlling things it wasn't until so much backlash that Mara needed to stop meddling that he hired outside with Schoen and now Schoen hired a assistant GM who was black that is likely to become a GM soon. I just don't see it.

Do I know for a fact Mara is or isn't racist...no...I don't know him personally so I prefer not to speculate. But I also don't think its fair to assume because he's an "old rich white guy" he's racist. How is that fair?

I don't want to go too far down this rabbit hole. Lets just trade for CJ Stroud and we will all be happy!

[TerrenceClarke]

How am I going to fall back? Wasn't it well known Mara wanted Flores? I think Flores was the runner up for the job. They liked him enough where Mara's nephew texted him out of pocket to go kill the interview...I think if you ask me Mara wanted Flores...Schoen wanted his guy which was Daboll.

Mara couldn't overrule his recent GM hire or that would have been a bad look.

How do you know this was not posturing by Mara. Your the one taking this on face value that Mara was being honest.

Its simple math. If he wanted Flores you get flores.

Owners pick who the coaches are in the NFL all the time. Mara wanted Judge and Got Judge....

Nah. Im not taking this on face value.

Mara new Getty was gone and called him the number 1 candiate only to shaft the dude?

The logic aint logicing here.

If we take this on face value then no matter who the GM was....he was going to hire flores.

The mara were hearing the whispers about not hiring black coaches and just got in front of it...with fake news.

Come on my dude....you know damn well NFL teams have been playing the loop holes with Rooney rule for years...

This just another example.

If you wanted him....

YOU HAD him...

**** what schoen wants....

he would have still took the Job even if he had to go with Flores.... and if he didnt....he could of kick rocks....

f*ck what Schoen wants? Thats a great start for the new guy running your organization.

The one issue everyone said is Mara meddles too much...he finally hires outside his circle with Schoen and his first big decision he tells Schoen to sit down this is the coach I'm hiring....that would have looked good.

You hired Schoen first you either trust him to make the decisions or you don't.

And yes I'm aware there are def sham interviews for the Rooney rule. But that is why Flores claims went absolutely nowhere...because it wasn't a sham interview.

Mara originally wanted Flores

Schoen wanted to bring in the guy he had the working relationship with...Mara let Schoen make his hire or he would have looked really bad overstepping his new GM.

Bruh this is standard practive in the NFL. Most owners are the ones picking coaches not the GMs. You acting like the Giants were breaking ranks if they laid the law that Flores was the coach.

The Dolphins owner wanted Daniels from the 49ers and got him

[TerrenceClarke]

So you saying he was worried more about the optics of overriding his new White GM.... vs the Optics of never having a black HC in franchise history...whom he called the #1 guy...

Hmmmmm....

Sounds about white....

[Ghetto Gospel]

he let his GM make the hire...which everyone criticized Mara for always staying with his circle. Ernie, Reese, Gentleman. He finally didn't have a connection to Schoen and would have looked horrible if he overstepped and didn't let his new GM pick the coach he wanted.

okay but he willing to hire joe judge right? he enamored? why is there always an excuse?

let's be real here. john mara an old rich white guy, lets not pretend like we ain't know the deal

different situations because Gettleman was a sham hire because he was with the organization and Mara was still controlling things it wasn't until so much backlash that Mara needed to stop meddling that he hired outside with Schoen and now Schoen hired a assistant GM who was black that is likely to become a GM soon. I just don't see it.

Do I know for a fact Mara is or isn't racist...no...I don't know him personally so I prefer not to speculate. But I also don't think its fair to assume because he's an "old rich white guy" he's racist. How is that fair?

I don't want to go too far down this rabbit hole. Lets just trade for CJ Stroud and we will all be happy!

so when mara was controlling things he was only hiring white HCs. joe judge from the belichick tree that he so enamored with and shurmer from which tree now?

[mpharris36]

How do you know this was not posturing by Mara. Your the one taking this on face value that Mara was being honest.

Its simple math. If he wanted Flores you get flores.

Owners pick who the coaches are in the NFL all the time. Mara wanted Judge and Got Judge....

Nah. Im not taking this on face value.

Mara new Getty was gone and called him the number 1 candiate only to shaft the dude?

The logic aint logicing here.

If we take this on face value then no matter who the GM was....he was going to hire flores.

The mara were hearing the whispers about not hiring black coaches and just got in front of it...with fake news.

Come on my dude....you know damn well NFL teams have been playing the loop holes with Rooney rule for years...

This just another example.

If you wanted him....

YOU HAD him...

**** what schoen wants....

he would have still took the Job even if he had to go with Flores.... and if he didnt....he could of kick rocks....

f*ck what Schoen wants? Thats a great start for the new guy running your organization.

The one issue everyone said is Mara meddles too much...he finally hires outside his circle with Schoen and his first big decision he tells Schoen to sit down this is the coach I'm hiring....that would have looked good.

You hired Schoen first you either trust him to make the decisions or you don't.

And yes I'm aware there are def sham interviews for the Rooney rule. But that is why Flores claims went absolutely nowhere...because it wasn't a sham interview.

Mara originally wanted Flores

Schoen wanted to bring in the guy he had the working relationship with...Mara let Schoen make his hire or he would have looked really bad overstepping his new GM.

Bruh this is standard practive in the NFL. Most owners are the ones picking coaches not the GMs. You acting like the Giants were breaking ranks if they laid the law that Flores was the coach.

The Dolphins owner wanted Daniels from the 49ers and got him

I don't disagree they are still the owners and a lot of owners are very much involved, not denying that...but we both know the state of the organization after the judge/gettleman fiasco...Giants fans were at Mara's head because he was meddling too much his GM hires were all in house type guys and he could break away from accorsi...he finally decided to go outside the circle and hire a young up and coming exec in Schoen and in his press conference said he was given autonomy to pick his own coach. Mara seemed like he had a preferenced because of the Flores/BB connection but in the end he finally gave autonomy to the GM he hired to build the team

from years and years of terrible decisions...now jury is still out for Schoen and Daboll but at least there are in this together. Not a coach that was handed to the GM which I am never aligned with.

You wanted Peters and Ryans...I think that would have been a great duo as well. So kudos to you.

Ryans looks legit...lets see how Peters runs the show in Washington.

[mpharris36]

okay but he willing to hire joe judge right? he enamored? why is there always an excuse?

let's be real here. john mara an old rich white guy, lets not pretend like we ain't know the deal

different situations because Gettleman was a sham hire because he was with the organization and Mara was still controlling things it wasn't until so much backlash that Mara needed to stop meddling that he hired outside with Schoen and now Schoen hired a assistant GM who was black that is likely to become a GM soon. I just don't see it.

Do I know for a fact Mara is or isn't racist...no...I don't know him personally so I prefer not to speculate. But I also don't think its fair to assume because he's an "old rich white guy" he's racist. How is that fair?

I don't want to go too far down this rabbit hole. Lets just trade for CJ Stroud and we will all be happy!

so when mara was controlling things he was only hiring white HCs. joe judge from the belichick tree that he so enamored with and shurmer from which tree now?

You have to give me specific situation otherwise its just going down a rabbit hole.

I think Steve Wilks was a interviewed back when Shurmer was hired - not sure we missed much there

and

Kris Richard and Bieniemy were interviewed before we hired Judge - against not sure we missed much there.

Unfortuntely a lot of times new coaches are hired that our offensive guys that can help groom a QB since its the most important position in the NFL. Numbers wise that is usually white guys. With a recent change with a lot more black QB's especially at the college level..I think that will eventually move to more black coaches offensive minds coming into the business and more black coaches being hired which will be good for the league.

Lets just be honest the Giants have made a lot of poor hiring decisions I specifically don't think its racially motivated since we haven't really passed up on a better candidate we just hire the wrong guys.

[TerrenceClarke]

My Final parting point is this

Its natural part of life to want to see yourself in mediums you love that lack them.

Im pretty sure white NBA fans would want to see more white superstars in the NBA....Just like Black NFL fans want to see more Black HC candidates get a fair shake.

If Daboll fizzes out and the next Giants HC is not a brother.... I dont know what else there is to say.

[Ghetto Gospel]

different situations because Gettleman was a sham hire because he was with the organization and Mara was still controlling things it wasn't until so much backlash that Mara needed to stop meddling that he hired outside with Schoen and now Schoen hired a assistant GM who was black that is likely to become a GM soon. I just don't see it.

Do I know for a fact Mara is or isn't racist...no...I don't know him personally so I prefer not to speculate. But I also don't think its fair to assume because he's an "old rich white guy" he's racist. How is that fair?

I don't want to go too far down this rabbit hole. Lets just trade for CJ Stroud and we will all be happy!

so when mara was controlling things he was only hiring white HCs. joe judge from the belichick tree that he so enamored with and shurmer from which tree now?

You have to give me specific situation otherwise its just going down a rabbit whole.

I think Steve Wilks was a interviewed back when Shurmer was hired - not sure we missed much there

and

Kris Richard and Bieniemy were interviewed before we hired Judge - against not sure we missed much there.

Unfortuntely a lot of times new coaches are hired that our offensive guys that can help groom a QB since its the most important position in the NFL. Numbers wise that is usually white guys. With a recent change with a lot more black QB's especially at the college level..I think that will eventually move to more black coaches offensive minds coming into the business and more black coaches being hired which will be good for the league.

Lets just be honest the Giants have made a lot of poor hiring decisions I specifically don't think its racially motivated since we haven't really passed up on a better candidate we just hire the wrong guys.

it's not about specific black coaches we could have had instead that would be more successful than judge or shurmur or mcadoo but who's getting the opportunity. reality is, we aren't giving black coaches the opportunity to succeed or fail. why'd we give mcadoo or shurmur or judge? why can't it ever be a black guy?

at what point do you think it starts to become racially motivated? if daboll gets fired after this year and it's another white guy, do you start questioning it? the next guy? the one after him? is it never as long as there's a half-way decent reason?

[mpharris36]

My Final parting point is this

Its natural part of life to want to see yourself in mediums you love that lack them.

Im pretty sure white NBA fans would want to see more white superstars in the NBA....Just like Black NFL fans want to see more Black HC candidates get a fair shake.

If Daboll fizzes out and the next Giants HC is not a brother.... I dont know what else there is to say.

I mean every person has some level of bias and or preferences from upbringing or culturally or whatever (doesn't have to be racially motivated). I don't think anyone would deny that. I think there is a distinct difference of that then saying someone is racist.

I specifically don't give a sh*t what color of skin anyone on my favorite team is or coach is or GM is. I want the team to win and just hire, sign, or draft the best players. You are def allowed to have your preference and want a black HC or QB, I don't want to tell you how to feel.

At the end of the day I think we all just want to root for a good team. Outside of like 2 years its been a pretty bad 10 year stretch.

[mpharris36]

so when mara was controlling things he was only hiring white HCs. joe judge from the belichick tree that he so enamored with and shurmer from which tree now?

You have to give me specific situation otherwise its just going down a rabbit whole.

I think Steve Wilks was a interviewed back when Shurmer was hired - not sure we missed much there

and

Kris Richard and Bieniemy were interviewed before we hired Judge - against not sure we missed much there.

Unfortuntely a lot of times new coaches are hired that our offensive guys that can help groom a QB since its the most important position in the NFL. Numbers wise that is usually white guys. With a recent change with a lot more black QB's especially at the college level..I think that will eventually move to more black coaches offensive minds coming into the business and more black coaches being hired which will be good for the league.

Lets just be honest the Giants have made a lot of poor hiring decisions I specifically don't think its racially motivated since we haven't really passed up on a better candidate we just hire the wrong guys.

it's not about specific black coaches we could have had instead that would be more successful than judge or shurmur or mcadoo but who's getting the opportunity. reality is, we aren't giving black coaches the opportunity to succeed or fail. why'd we give mcadoo or shurmur or judge? why can't it ever be a black guy?

at what point do you think it starts to become racially motivated? if daboll gets fired after this year and it's another white guy, do you start questioning it? the next guy? the one after him? is it never as long as there's a half-way decent reason?

I really don't want to look into hypotheticals...but my rebuttal to that would be you would want the next hiring process to just hire a black guy regardless...just only interview only black candidates ignore everyone else just to end this stretch? I would like it to happen organically if we are in need for another coach I would like to hire the best possible coach.

Like I said before I think we are seeing a big shift at the QB position...I think that eventually will translate to the HC position because I think we you do agree generally offensive minds get a majority of HC positions. You def have good defensive guys that succeed don't get me wrong but statistically its HC who were former QB's...

[Ghetto Gospel]

You have to give me specific situation otherwise its just going down a rabbit whole.

I think Steve Wilks was a interviewed back when Shurmer was hired - not sure we missed much there

and

Kris Richard and Bieniemy were interviewed before we hired Judge - against not sure we missed much there.

Unfortuntely a lot of times new coaches are hired that our offensive guys that can help groom a QB since its the most important position in the NFL. Numbers wise that is usually white guys. With a recent change with a lot more black QB's especially at the college level..I think that will eventually move to more black coaches offensive minds coming into the business and more black coaches being hired which will be good for the league.

Lets just be honest the Giants have made a lot of poor hiring decisions I specifically don't think its racially motivated since we haven't really passed up on a better candidate we just hire the wrong guys.

it's not about specific black coaches we could have had instead that would be more successful than judge or shurmur or mcadoo but who's getting the opportunity. reality is, we aren't giving black coaches the opportunity to succeed or fail. why'd we give mcadoo or shurmur or judge? why can't it ever be a black guy?

at what point do you think it starts to become racially motivated? if daboll gets fired after this year and it's another white guy, do you start questioning it? the next guy? the one after him? is it never as long as there's a half-way decent reason?

I really don't want to look into hypotheticals...but my rebuttal to that would be you would want the next hiring process to just hire a black guy regardless...just only interview only black candidates ignore everyone else just to end this stretch? I would like it to happen organically if we are in need for another coach I would like to hire the best possible coach.

Like I said before I think we are seeing a big shift at the QB position...I think that eventually will translate to the HC position because I think we you do agree generally offensive minds get a majority of HC positions. You def have good defensive guys that succeed don't get me wrong but statistically its HC who were former QB's...

i agree with you that we shouldn't hire a black HC just to check the box but you do have to question why we aren't giving them an opportunity at some point right? how many more white HCs would it take for you to start thinking about it.