Jokic is not the best in the world, and has been heavily overrated (NOW YOU CAN CHANGE VOTES)

[Special_Puppy]

Jokic was outstanding the first 4 Lakers games and has looked checked out since then. Its frustrating not even because he's playing particularly poorly, its just that everyone knows he can play way better than this even if his team ultimately still loses to the Wolves because Murray is completely hobbled

[DimesandKnicks]

That 2007 Cavs team was elite defensively. It was the team with the best rDRTG of any team LeBron has ever played on, and that’s despite the fact that LeBron himself was really not at his defensive peak yet. And, come playoff time, they had the 28th best playoff rDRTG of all time (again, better than any other team LeBron ever played on), and it was the 11th best of any finalist in history. It was also the best rDRTG of any team in those playoffs—even ahead of the Spurs. Meanwhile, the 2007 Cavs had a below-average offense in both regular season (-0.9 rORTG) and the playoffs (an even worse -2.8 rORTG, with a negative rDRTG in every series except the first round).

So it’s just a little interesting to me when people say LeBron “carried scrubs” to the Finals in 2007. It’s very clear that what carried that team was defense. They were an incredibly good defensive team—one of the very best in the league in the regular season and one of the best of all time in the playoffs. And defense is inherently a team effort (and LeBron wasn’t even a super elite individual defender at that point anyways). So it seems to me that that team largely carried itself, by playing incredibly good team defense. And it also seems to me that they weren’t really “scrubs.” Do “scrubs” play historically good defense? No. Of course, it is true that it was a limited roster offensively outside of LeBron, but they also were a bad team offensively in both regular season and playoffs, while the team defense carried them to success. LeBron carried the load for that team offensively, but it’s just weird to say a guy carried a team when the side of the ball he carried the load on was bad and the side of the ball that he didn’t carry the load on was historically good.

Scrubs that played defense*

That’s a really enormous caveat that really makes them not be reasonably classified as scrubs.

disagree. They were scrubs offensively and none of them were elite defenders. While Lebron wasn’t at the peak of his defensive abilities, his peak was a few votes away from being DPOY. You replace James, a two way player, with Jokic, a defensive liability, and that team defense suffers accordingly.

[DimesandKnicks]

Jokic plays in the much more competitive era than MJ, for example. It's much harder to dominate because there's a huge increase in the talent pool of elite and very good international players, that didn't exist back in MJ's time. Plus, the pool of American talent hasn't gone anywhere.

Imagine replacing the trash international players that Jordan had to compete against, with: Giannis, Jokic, Luka, Shai, Embiid, Siakam, Gobert, OG, Brooks, Murray, Markkanen, Porzingis, Sengun, Bogi, etc..., while keeping the American competition (Bird, Hakeem, Malone, Ewing, Barkley, etc....) the same.

MJ would win a hell of a lot less consistently (like every other star today).

Parity is the side effect of today's increase in talent pool. It's pretty straightforward math & logic.

He also plays in an era where there isn’t much top end talent at the C position; conversely, outside of Gobert his run to the finals was independent of any physical/ strong big men or C’s he really had to guard defensively. Imagine Jokic going up against Robinson, Duncan, Ewing, Shaq, Hakeem, Mourning, Mutombo, Smits.

There’s more top end talent at C than ever before. The old school bully bigs can’t stay on the floor because they need to be able to hedge and recover to the perimeter.

It just goes to show how much more talented Jokic is than the current generation of Cs. He’s nimble enough to stay on a modern spaced out, bulky enough to work in the post, skilled enough to shoot 3s, and otherworldly as a playmaker. MJ got to regularly posterize stiffs like Greg Ostertag and Shawn Bradley.

I was always find it hilarious how some people think that basketball is the only endeavor in the world that is immune to constant evolution. Somehow, everything and everybody got worse since MJ retired.

Name them

[MavsDirk41]

Jokic plays in the much more competitive era than MJ, for example. It's much harder to dominate because there's a huge increase in the talent pool of elite and very good international players, that didn't exist back in MJ's time. Plus, the pool of American talent hasn't gone anywhere.

Imagine replacing the trash international players that Jordan had to compete against, with: Giannis, Jokic, Luka, Shai, Embiid, Siakam, Gobert, OG, Brooks, Murray, Markkanen, Porzingis, Sengun, Bogi, etc..., while keeping the American competition (Bird, Hakeem, Malone, Ewing, Barkley, etc....) the same.

MJ would win a hell of a lot less consistently (like every other star today).

Parity is the side effect of today's increase in talent pool. It's pretty straightforward math & logic.

He also plays in an era where there isn’t much top end talent at the C position; conversely, outside of Gobert his run to the finals was independent of any physical/ strong big men or C’s he really had to guard defensively. Imagine Jokic going up against Robinson, Duncan, Ewing, Shaq, Hakeem, Mourning, Mutombo, Smits.

There’s more top end talent at C than ever before. The old school bully bigs can’t stay on the floor because they need to be able to hedge and recover to the perimeter.

It just goes to show how much more talented Jokic is than the current generation of Cs. He’s nimble enough to stay on a modern spaced out, bulky enough to work in the post, skilled enough to shoot 3s, and otherworldly as a playmaker. MJ got to regularly posterize stiffs like Greg Ostertag and Shawn Bradley.

I was always find it hilarious how some people think that basketball is the only endeavor in the world that is immune to constant evolution. Somehow, everything and everybody got worse since MJ retired.

You mentione Ostertag and Bradley lol? Do you want me to reply with some other centers who player basketball in the 80s/90s?? There were a few that were better lol…ill wait for your rebuttal

[lessthanjake]

Scrubs that played defense*

That’s a really enormous caveat that really makes them not be reasonably classified as scrubs.

disagree. They were scrubs offensively and none of them were elite defenders. While Lebron wasn’t at the peak of his defensive abilities, his peak was a few votes away from being DPOY. You replace James, a two way player, with Jokic, a defensive liability, and that team defense suffers accordingly.

This is silly. If the team had an historically elite defense (which they did), then they were not scrubs. You can say they didn’t have elite defenders (though they actually did, including having the player who was 7th in DRAPM that year, and it wasn’t LeBron), but defense is a team effort and the team as a whole defended masterfully that year. A team of players that defends masterfully are not scrubs.

Meanwhile, it is true that LeBron was close to winning DPOY in his defensive peak years, but in the 2006-2007 season that we are actually talking about, LeBron didn’t get a single vote whatsoever for all-defensive teams and was 51st in DRAPM (behind multiple Cleveland teammates). He was also 49th in D-EPM that year. He was a good defender, but nothing super special. And, of course, that 2006-2007 Cavaliers team had the best regular season defense and best playoff defense of any team LeBron ever played for, including teams he was on in years when he was a much better defender. And this is because the team around him was incredible defensively. And it was that incredible defense that carried the team.

[CodeBreaker]

We’ve been spoiled by Lebron. A decade plus of him being the clear cut best player in the league and you could expect an awesome performance from him every single night, no matter who his teammates were or who his opponent was.

There is no next version of that guy in the league right now, there might not be one again for a long time. Jokic is very good but unlike peak Lebron he has limitations. I just think the expectation for the best player in the league is unrealistically high because we used to have a guy who could dominate 100 times per season without ever wearing down and that’s just a level that only 2 players in nba history have ever reached.

/thread

[ninjamilk23]

We’ve been spoiled by Lebron. A decade plus of him being the clear cut best player in the league and you could expect an awesome performance from him every single night, no matter who his teammates were or who his opponent was.

There is no next version of that guy in the league right now, there might not be one again for a long time. Jokic is very good but unlike peak Lebron he has limitations. I just think the expectation for the best player in the league is unrealistically high because we used to have a guy who could dominate 100 times per season without ever wearing down and that’s just a level that only 2 players in nba history have ever reached.

/thread

LeBron is the clear cut best player until the Finals. Lol

[LaLover11]

We’ve been spoiled by Lebron. A decade plus of him being the clear cut best player in the league and you could expect an awesome performance from him every single night, no matter who his teammates were or who his opponent was.

There is no next version of that guy in the league right now, there might not be one again for a long time. Jokic is very good but unlike peak Lebron he has limitations. I just think the expectation for the best player in the league is unrealistically high because we used to have a guy who could dominate 100 times per season without ever wearing down and that’s just a level that only 2 players in nba history have ever reached.

/thread

LeBron is the clear cut best player until the Finals. Lol

Yeah just like in the 2016 Finals when he beat the greatest team in NBA history haha he's such a a loser! I agree

[DimesandKnicks]

That’s a really enormous caveat that really makes them not be reasonably classified as scrubs.

disagree. They were scrubs offensively and none of them were elite defenders. While Lebron wasn’t at the peak of his defensive abilities, his peak was a few votes away from being DPOY. You replace James, a two way player, with Jokic, a defensive liability, and that team defense suffers accordingly.

This is silly. If the team had an historically elite defense (which they did), then they were not scrubs. You can say they didn’t have elite defenders (though they actually did, including having the player who was 7th in DRAPM that year, and it wasn’t LeBron), but defense is a team effort and the team as a whole defended masterfully that year. A team of players that defends masterfully are not scrubs.

Meanwhile, it is true that LeBron was close to winning DPOY in his defensive peak years, but in the 2006-2007 season that we are actually talking about, LeBron didn’t get a single vote whatsoever for all-defensive teams and was 51st in DRAPM (behind multiple Cleveland teammates). He was also 49th in D-EPM that year. He was a good defender, but nothing super special. And, of course, that 2006-2007 Cavaliers team had the best regular season defense and best playoff defense of any team LeBron ever played for, including teams he was on in years when he was a much better defender. And this is because the team around him was incredible defensively. And it was that incredible defense that carried the team.

How is DRAPM and D-EPM calculated?

Who were there elite defenders?

Do you think if they replaced Lebron, again a two way player, with Jokic, a one way front court player that they’d have a top five defense?

[bushybrah_]

As someone whose team loses to the Nuggets almost every time we play them, Embiid is NOT better than Jokic. They best so much respect into me last year.

I hate them, and they’re down to a horrible start, but you’re crazy if you don’t think he’s the best in the world. I once thought he was overrated last year until he just defied odds and showed me time and time again. He’s one of the best big man I’ve ever seen.

[ninjamilk23]

/thread

LeBron is the clear cut best player until the Finals. Lol

Yeah just like in the 2016 Finals when he beat the greatest team in NBA history haha he's such a a loser! I agree

Well, he does have more Finals losses than wins. I think calling him a loser is a bit harsh but his Finals record does reflect it. I'm glad we both found a common ground. Lol

[Jta444]

/thread

LeBron is the clear cut best player until the Finals. Lol

Yeah just like in the 2016 Finals when he beat the greatest team in NBA history haha he's such a a loser! I agree

*he and kyrie
*greatest regular season team in NBA history

Also Thunder and Warriors in the WCF fought a hard 7 game series while Cavs faced garbage in the East as usual and were able to stay fresh for the Finals

[LaLover11]

LeBron is the clear cut best player until the Finals. Lol

Yeah just like in the 2016 Finals when he beat the greatest team in NBA history haha he's such a a loser! I agree

Well, he does have more Finals losses than wins. I think calling him a loser is a bit harsh but his Finals record does reflect it. I'm glad we both found a common ground. Lol

Let me know how many times you win vs the Superior team lol Jordan and all his rings we're in a weaker era with less talent and all his team we're the favorite

Wow so impressive!! LeBron wasn't even a favorite vs the Mavericks, those Mavs had a complete team with a better coach at the time and the possessed Dirk on a kill streak that took out the defending champion KB24 Lakers

[ninjamilk23]

Yeah just like in the 2016 Finals when he beat the greatest team in NBA history haha he's such a a loser! I agree

Well, he does have more Finals losses than wins. I think calling him a loser is a bit harsh but his Finals record does reflect it. I'm glad we both found a common ground. Lol

Let me know how many times you win vs the Superior team lol Jordan and all his rings we're in a weaker era with less talent and all his team we're the favorite

Wow so impressive!! LeBron wasn't even a favorite vs the Mavericks, those Mavs had a complete team with a better coach at the time and the possessed Dirk on a kill streak that took out the defending champion KB24 Lakers

Why bring up Jordan? We're not even talking about him. Lol

Miami was definitely the favorite to win during 2011. It's all right to admit that LeBron choked. He's still an all time great. He just have a tendency to fail in the Finals.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2011_preseason_odds.html

https://www.sbnation.com/nba/2011/5/31/2198658/nba-finals-2011-odds-miami-heat-dallas-mavericks

[lessthanjake]

disagree. They were scrubs offensively and none of them were elite defenders. While Lebron wasn’t at the peak of his defensive abilities, his peak was a few votes away from being DPOY. You replace James, a two way player, with Jokic, a defensive liability, and that team defense suffers accordingly.

This is silly. If the team had an historically elite defense (which they did), then they were not scrubs. You can say they didn’t have elite defenders (though they actually did, including having the player who was 7th in DRAPM that year, and it wasn’t LeBron), but defense is a team effort and the team as a whole defended masterfully that year. A team of players that defends masterfully are not scrubs.

Meanwhile, it is true that LeBron was close to winning DPOY in his defensive peak years, but in the 2006-2007 season that we are actually talking about, LeBron didn’t get a single vote whatsoever for all-defensive teams and was 51st in DRAPM (behind multiple Cleveland teammates). He was also 49th in D-EPM that year. He was a good defender, but nothing super special. And, of course, that 2006-2007 Cavaliers team had the best regular season defense and best playoff defense of any team LeBron ever played for, including teams he was on in years when he was a much better defender. And this is because the team around him was incredible defensively. And it was that incredible defense that carried the team.

How is DRAPM and D-EPM calculated?

Who were there elite defenders?

Do you think if they replaced Lebron, again a two way player, with Jokic, a one way front court player that they’d have a top five defense?

In essence, those stats look at how the team does defensively with them on and off the floor, controlling for the quality of the players on the court with and without them on both teams, in order to isolate the effect they specifically had. They show LeBron being a good but not elite defender that year, and, while those stats can be noisy in single-season samples, that’s also consistent with perception (and defensive awards voting, or lack thereof) at the time regarding LeBron.

They had several elite defenders. Varejao, Snow, and Ilgauskas were all really good, as were several others. And, again, more importantly, they played incredibly well together as a unit. Maybe you think that Mike Brown carried the team with his defensive coaching, I don’t know. That’d be a legitimate position to take. But it’s clear that amazing defense carried that team, and defense is a team effort that LeBron was really not at all carrying.

As for replacing LeBron that year with Jokic, obviously that’s an absurd hypothetical because the two players do not even play the same position. A team that is built around a star SF would very likely not be as good if you replaced that star SF with a star C, because it would completely screw up the lineups and not optimally use the teams’ talents. But it’s worth noting that Jokic has 4 seasons with as higher or higher D-EPM than LeBron had in 2006-2007. Jokic’s average D-RAPTOR in his peak years (starting 2020-2021) is higher than LeBron’s D-RAPTOR in any season of his entire career (including 2006-2007). LeBron’s career DRAPM is quite similar to Jokic’s career DRAPM (2.8 vs. 2.2). LeBron’s average D-LEBRON just in the years in the data set that he was top 10 in DPOY voting (so, 2009-2010 through 2013-2014) is lower than Jokic’s career average D-LEBRON and lower than Jokic’s D-LEBRON in each of the last three seasons. Jokic’s average DRPM in his peak years (again, starting 2020-2021) is higher than LeBron’s DRPM in 2006-2007 as well as every year of LeBron’s defensive peak. The data definitely doesn’t suggest that Jokic is a particularly inferior defender to LeBron. So yeah, I think you could create an elite defense with Jokic similar to how the 2006-2007 Cavs created an elite defense with LeBron, though the personnel to do it with him wouldn’t be the same as with LeBron since they do not play the same position.

[GSP]

Yall better hope Denver doesnt come back this series lol and i picked Wolves in 6 before either even made it to the 2nd round but those Denver and Jokic fans will be on yall ass

[DimesandKnicks]

This is silly. If the team had an historically elite defense (which they did), then they were not scrubs. You can say they didn’t have elite defenders (though they actually did, including having the player who was 7th in DRAPM that year, and it wasn’t LeBron), but defense is a team effort and the team as a whole defended masterfully that year. A team of players that defends masterfully are not scrubs.

Meanwhile, it is true that LeBron was close to winning DPOY in his defensive peak years, but in the 2006-2007 season that we are actually talking about, LeBron didn’t get a single vote whatsoever for all-defensive teams and was 51st in DRAPM (behind multiple Cleveland teammates). He was also 49th in D-EPM that year. He was a good defender, but nothing super special. And, of course, that 2006-2007 Cavaliers team had the best regular season defense and best playoff defense of any team LeBron ever played for, including teams he was on in years when he was a much better defender. And this is because the team around him was incredible defensively. And it was that incredible defense that carried the team.

How is DRAPM and D-EPM calculated?

Who were there elite defenders?

Do you think if they replaced Lebron, again a two way player, with Jokic, a one way front court player that they’d have a top five defense?

In essence, those stats look at how the team does defensively with them on and off the floor, controlling for the quality of the players on the court with and without them on both teams, in order to isolate the effect they specifically had. They show LeBron being a good but not elite defender that year, and, while those stats can be noisy in single-season samples, that’s also consistent with perception (and defensive awards voting, or lack thereof) at the time regarding LeBron.

They had several elite defenders. Varejao, Snow, and Ilgauskas were all really good, as were several others. And, again, more importantly, they played incredibly well together as a unit. Maybe you think that Mike Brown carried the team with his defensive coaching, I don’t know. That’d be a legitimate position to take. But it’s clear that amazing defense carried that team, and defense is a team effort that LeBron was really not at all carrying.

As for replacing LeBron that year with Jokic, obviously that’s an absurd hypothetical because the two players do not even play the same position. A team that is built around a star SF would very likely not be as good if you replaced that star SF with a star C, because it would completely screw up the lineups and not optimally use the teams’ talents. But it’s worth noting that Jokic has 4 seasons with as higher or higher D-EPM than LeBron had in 2006-2007. Jokic’s average D-RAPTOR in his peak years (starting 2020-2021) is higher than LeBron’s D-RAPTOR in any season of his entire career (including 2006-2007). LeBron’s career DRAPM is quite similar to Jokic’s career DRAPM (2.8 vs. 2.2). LeBron’s average D-LEBRON just in the years in the data set that he was top 10 in DPOY voting (so, 2009-2010 through 2013-2014) is lower than Jokic’s career average D-LEBRON and lower than Jokic’s D-LEBRON in each of the last three seasons. Jokic’s average DRPM in his peak years (again, starting 2020-2021) is higher than LeBron’s DRPM in 2006-2007 as well as every year of LeBron’s defensive peak. The data definitely doesn’t suggest that Jokic is a particularly inferior defender to LeBron. So yeah, I think you could create an elite defense with Jokic similar to how the 2006-2007 Cavs created an elite defense with LeBron, though the personnel to do it with him wouldn’t be the same as with LeBron since they do not play the same position.

What I meant was what is the actual formula for these metrics? There is no time in Jokic career that he was a better or more impactful defender than Lebron so saying he had a higher so and so metric than Lebron in so and so year just sounds like it’s a very flawed metric.

As far as Varejo, Snow (who retired after playing another yeat) and Z being “elite” defenders; I don’t think you’ll find any footage of any commentator broadcaster or media member making the same argument.

[ILOVEIT]

OMG stop. STOP. Another "hey the guy just lost two games therefore BLA BLA" post.

[lessthanjake]

How is DRAPM and D-EPM calculated?

Who were there elite defenders?

Do you think if they replaced Lebron, again a two way player, with Jokic, a one way front court player that they’d have a top five defense?

In essence, those stats look at how the team does defensively with them on and off the floor, controlling for the quality of the players on the court with and without them on both teams, in order to isolate the effect they specifically had. They show LeBron being a good but not elite defender that year, and, while those stats can be noisy in single-season samples, that’s also consistent with perception (and defensive awards voting, or lack thereof) at the time regarding LeBron.

They had several elite defenders. Varejao, Snow, and Ilgauskas were all really good, as were several others. And, again, more importantly, they played incredibly well together as a unit. Maybe you think that Mike Brown carried the team with his defensive coaching, I don’t know. That’d be a legitimate position to take. But it’s clear that amazing defense carried that team, and defense is a team effort that LeBron was really not at all carrying.

As for replacing LeBron that year with Jokic, obviously that’s an absurd hypothetical because the two players do not even play the same position. A team that is built around a star SF would very likely not be as good if you replaced that star SF with a star C, because it would completely screw up the lineups and not optimally use the teams’ talents. But it’s worth noting that Jokic has 4 seasons with as higher or higher D-EPM than LeBron had in 2006-2007. Jokic’s average D-RAPTOR in his peak years (starting 2020-2021) is higher than LeBron’s D-RAPTOR in any season of his entire career (including 2006-2007). LeBron’s career DRAPM is quite similar to Jokic’s career DRAPM (2.8 vs. 2.2). LeBron’s average D-LEBRON just in the years in the data set that he was top 10 in DPOY voting (so, 2009-2010 through 2013-2014) is lower than Jokic’s career average D-LEBRON and lower than Jokic’s D-LEBRON in each of the last three seasons. Jokic’s average DRPM in his peak years (again, starting 2020-2021) is higher than LeBron’s DRPM in 2006-2007 as well as every year of LeBron’s defensive peak. The data definitely doesn’t suggest that Jokic is a particularly inferior defender to LeBron. So yeah, I think you could create an elite defense with Jokic similar to how the 2006-2007 Cavs created an elite defense with LeBron, though the personnel to do it with him wouldn’t be the same as with LeBron since they do not play the same position.

What I meant was what is the actual formula for these metrics? There is no time in Jokic career that he was a better or more impactful defender than Lebron so saying he had a higher so and so metric than Lebron in so and so year just sounds like it’s a very flawed metric.

You can look them up. I gave you a lot of different metrics, and explained the basics of how they work. I think you’d be hard-pressed to argue that there are better metrics for defense than impact metrics, and I gave you essentially all of them that exist, and they all supported my point.

As far as Varejo, Snow (who retired after playing another yeat) and Z being “elite” defenders; I don’t think you’ll find any footage of any commentator broadcaster or media member making the same argument.

I don’t think that’s correct at all—these are players who were praised for defense. As was Larry Hughes, as another example. But, again, more importantly, they played together extremely well, which is more important for defense than anything some broadcaster or media member says about someone individually.

The bottom line is that that team was absolutely completely carried by its defense. They had a below-average offense in the regular season, and an awful offense in the playoffs. But they had an elite defense in the regular season, and an historically great defense in the playoffs. Their defense is very obviously what led them to the Finals. And defense is an inherently team effort and LeBron wasn’t even really a noted defender at all individually at the time. So the idea that LeBron carried that team is *extremely* dubious. He carried the load on a side of the ball that the team was genuinely bad at, while just being another cog in the wheel on the side of the ball that actually carried the team to success. There’s really a much better argument that Mike Brown carried that team, with his coaching on the defensive side of the ball.

[MaliBrah]

He's taking someone else's MVP this year