Is Kyrie the Goat "Guard" Robin of all time?

[One_and_Done]

Yes. As guards go, Irving is the best guard sidekick ever who has never won as a number one option.

Billups and Tony Parker, of players I've witnessed, are in the discussion as well.

CP3 with Harden was better.

[One_and_Done]

Kobe wasn't Robin...he was Batman to Shaq's Superman.

So a guy who in reality would lose instantly to Superman, but in fiction is treated like a peer because his fans think he is cool? That's an unintentionally apt comparison.

In reality Kobe was closer to Batgirl than Batman.

[TheGeneral99]

No, lol.

Kobe was a better robin to Shaq.

Pippen was a better robin to Jordan.

Gasol was a better robin to Kobe.

Wade was a better robin to Lebron.


Also Kyrie has been pretty lucky in his career with the guys he's been able to play with. He's had prime Lebron, prime KD, and Luka to play with...that's insane.

Lowry, who I thought was severely underrated on Toronto, played majority of his career with Derozan who is not a top 15 player and when he had Kawhi for 1 year they won a chip.

What if prime CP3, or prime Lillard or prime Lowry etc. played with guys like prime Lebron, Luka, Jokic, KD etc. in their careers for an extended period?

[G35]

Even if finals were the only metric, how would 4 with Shaq be inferior to 3 without? You said Kobe did better without Shaq. That is clearly factually false.

You said Shaq would 3 peat with ray allen. He didn’t make back 2 back finals with Wade or penny, two ray Allen level players. Stop being a clown and using dumb logic.

Well Shaq didn't have his peak years with those guys did he. If you ported healthy versions of Penny and Wade to 00-02 then they would win 3 titles too. Shaq had maybe 1-2 prime years with Wade. First year Wade is hurt in the ECFs, year two they win.

You don't understand the difference between correlation and causation. First we have several years of Shaq being on stacked teams and having a top perimeter player next to him and he got swept the most in history. Penny Hardaway was NBA 1st team back to back in 1995 and 1996. The Magic had a great team around Shaq, it might have been even deeper than the threepeat Lakers with Nick Anderson, Dennis Scott, and Horace Grant.

Second, even if we grant all that you said, how many teams are able to pull off a 3peat? Not the Bird/McHale/Parish Celtics, not the Showtime Lakers, not the Bad Pistons, not Duncan/Manu/Ginobli Spurs, and not the Warriors even with Curry/Durant/Draymond/Klay all in their prime. As we see every year, its not just talent, its not just having an easy conference, its not just having a stacked team, its not getting lucky, too many teams can't even repeat or even make it back to the conference finals.

Shaq brought dominance to the team, but he slacked off and didn't go as hard as he should have, Kobe was the one who brought the drive and determination. Kobe was the one who was tired of hearing how he was riding Shaq's coattails while putting all the work in to get better while Shaq was saying he would rehab on company time.

If Kobe was not able to win another championship without Shaq, then the arguments against him would hold merit. But Kobe led a team that went to three finals in a stacked Western Conference and went to back to back. Wade couldn't stay healthy, the next two years after the Heat won the title in 2006 Wade played less than 100 games and the Heat won less than 60 games combined over the next two seasons. That's not going to cut it.

Results matter, Kobe did it and others had the opportunity with Shaq and did not do it.....

[sp6r=underrated]

I know everyone hates Russ but from 2013-16 OKC averaged 54 wins and had the 5th most playoff wins. Westbrook's performance as a number 2 is far more impressive to me than Kyrie and outside of this thread I'd far prefer him as my as my number 1 over Kyrie.

[Anderson Hunt]

Yes. As guards go, Irving is the best guard sidekick ever who has never won as a number one option.

Billups and Tony Parker, of players I've witnessed, are in the discussion as well.

CP3 with Harden was better.

I only count titles. Yes, I'm one of those guys.

Durant, to me, is the best number of all time. That is essentially his legacy. Irving is the best guard.

They never could put it together in Brooklyn because they're both Hall of of Fame sidekicks who don't have the mentality to be the main/only guy that everyone on the team can turn to when they need a spiritual lift.

[One_and_Done]

You said Shaq would 3 peat with ray allen. He didn’t make back 2 back finals with Wade or penny, two ray Allen level players. Stop being a clown and using dumb logic.

Well Shaq didn't have his peak years with those guys did he. If you ported healthy versions of Penny and Wade to 00-02 then they would win 3 titles too. Shaq had maybe 1-2 prime years with Wade. First year Wade is hurt in the ECFs, year two they win.

You don't understand the difference between correlation and causation. First we have several years of Shaq being on stacked teams and having a top perimeter player next to him and he got swept the most in history. Penny Hardaway was NBA 1st team back to back in 1995 and 1996. The Magic had a great team around Shaq, it might have been even deeper than the threepeat Lakers with Nick Anderson, Dennis Scott, and Horace Grant.

Second, even if we grant all that you said, how many teams are able to pull off a 3peat? Not the Bird/McHale/Parish Celtics, not the Showtime Lakers, not the Bad Pistons, not Duncan/Manu/Ginobli Spurs, and not the Warriors even with Curry/Durant/Draymond/Klay all in their prime. As we see every year, its not just talent, its not just having an easy conference, its not just having a stacked team, its not getting lucky, too many teams can't even repeat or even make it back to the conference finals.

Shaq brought dominance to the team, but he slacked off and didn't go as hard as he should have, Kobe was the one who brought the drive and determination. Kobe was the one who was tired of hearing how he was riding Shaq's coattails while putting all the work in to get better while Shaq was saying he would rehab on company time.

If Kobe was not able to win another championship without Shaq, then the arguments against him would hold merit. But Kobe led a team that went to three finals in a stacked Western Conference and went to back to back. Wade couldn't stay healthy, the next two years after the Heat won the title in 2006 Wade played less than 100 games and the Heat won less than 60 games combined over the next two seasons. That's not going to cut it.

Results matter, Kobe did it and others had the opportunity with Shaq and did not do it.....

Not even clear on the point you're trying to make here.

[Anderson Hunt]

Yes. As guards go, Irving is the best guard sidekick ever who has never won as a number one option.

Billups and Tony Parker, of players I've witnessed, are in the discussion as well.

CP3 with Harden was better.

I only count titles. Yes, I'm one of those guys.

Durant, to me, is the best number two of all time. That is essentially his legacy. Irving is the best number two guard.

They never could put it together in Brooklyn because they're both Hall of of Fame sidekicks who don't have the mentality to be the main/only guy that everyone on the team can turn to when they need a spiritual lift.

[One_and_Done]

CP3 with Harden was better.

I only count titles. Yes, I'm one of those guys.

Durant, to me, is the best number two of all time. That is essentially his legacy. Irving is the best number two guard.

They never could put it together in Brooklyn because they're both Hall of of Fame sidekicks who don't have the mentality to be the main/only guy that everyone on the team can turn to when they need a spiritual lift.

You wanted a reply after leading with 'I only count titles'? You win, Bob Cousy is the best guard Robin. You're too smart for me.

[NYPiston]

Kobe was a much bigger Robin than him.

Kobe wasn't a Robin. He and Shaq were two Batmans.

Pippen is the easy choice here.

Edit: I should have read the OP so if Pippen doesn't count then Kyrie has a strong case.

[LaLover11]

Kobe was a much bigger Robin than him.

Kobe wasn't a Robin. He and Shaq were two Batmans.

Pippen is the easy choice here.

Pippen is excluded from this conversation
Only Guards

[soxfan2003]

Kobe Bryant would be my choice and then Wade. Stockton would be up there if a player just had to come close to a title but not win it. It would have been interesting to see how many titled prime Stockton wins with Shaq with let's say Fisher replaced by more of SG version of Fisher that best compliments Stockton/Shaq.

If we are just talking single season Robin, Magic in 1980 deserves consideration since Kareem was still Lakers best player but Magic did enough to win finals MVP in large part due to Kareem being out game 6.

Wade without a doubt even his first 2 years with Lebron is significantly better than Irving but Wade was never the best fit with Lebron so that cuts into his advantage.

[LascelleL]

Kobe wasn't Robin...he was Batman to Shaq's Superman.

So a guy who in reality would lose instantly to Superman, but in fiction is treated like a peer because his fans think he is cool? That's an unintentionally apt comparison.

In reality Kobe was closer to Batgirl than Batman.

Lmao you got anger issues and comprehension issues if you can be as reductive as that when it comes to understanding Batman, his place in comics/DC and the similarities in his dynamic with Superman vs Shaq and Kobe.

[One_and_Done]

Kobe wasn't Robin...he was Batman to Shaq's Superman.

So a guy who in reality would lose instantly to Superman, but in fiction is treated like a peer because his fans think he is cool? That's an unintentionally apt comparison.

In reality Kobe was closer to Batgirl than Batman.

Lmao you got anger issues and comprehension issues if you can be as reductive as that when it comes to understanding Batman, his place in comics/DC and the similarities in his dynamic with Superman vs Shaq and Kobe.

One guy moves at light speed and can attack from long distances with planet devastating power, the other guy is a human who is hard pressed by high end street brawlers. In a no holds barred fight it's pretty obvious who would win. Batman would be dead before he can blink.

[LaLover11]

So a guy who in reality would lose instantly to Superman, but in fiction is treated like a peer because his fans think he is cool? That's an unintentionally apt comparison.

In reality Kobe was closer to Batgirl than Batman.

Lmao you got anger issues and comprehension issues if you can be as reductive as that when it comes to understanding Batman, his place in comics/DC and the similarities in his dynamic with Superman vs Shaq and Kobe.

One guy moves at light speed and can attack from long distances with planet devastating power, the other guy is a human who is hard pressed by high end street brawlers. In a no holds barred fight it's pretty obvious who would win. Batman would be dead before he can blink.

Clearly LeBron is Thanos and MJ is Black Panther

[flytimes11]

Well Shaq didn't have his peak years with those guys did he. If you ported healthy versions of Penny and Wade to 00-02 then they would win 3 titles too. Shaq had maybe 1-2 prime years with Wade. First year Wade is hurt in the ECFs, year two they win.

You don't understand the difference between correlation and causation. First we have several years of Shaq being on stacked teams and having a top perimeter player next to him and he got swept the most in history. Penny Hardaway was NBA 1st team back to back in 1995 and 1996. The Magic had a great team around Shaq, it might have been even deeper than the threepeat Lakers with Nick Anderson, Dennis Scott, and Horace Grant.

Second, even if we grant all that you said, how many teams are able to pull off a 3peat? Not the Bird/McHale/Parish Celtics, not the Showtime Lakers, not the Bad Pistons, not Duncan/Manu/Ginobli Spurs, and not the Warriors even with Curry/Durant/Draymond/Klay all in their prime. As we see every year, its not just talent, its not just having an easy conference, its not just having a stacked team, its not getting lucky, too many teams can't even repeat or even make it back to the conference finals.

Shaq brought dominance to the team, but he slacked off and didn't go as hard as he should have, Kobe was the one who brought the drive and determination. Kobe was the one who was tired of hearing how he was riding Shaq's coattails while putting all the work in to get better while Shaq was saying he would rehab on company time.

If Kobe was not able to win another championship without Shaq, then the arguments against him would hold merit. But Kobe led a team that went to three finals in a stacked Western Conference and went to back to back. Wade couldn't stay healthy, the next two years after the Heat won the title in 2006 Wade played less than 100 games and the Heat won less than 60 games combined over the next two seasons. That's not going to cut it.

Results matter, Kobe did it and others had the opportunity with Shaq and did not do it.....

Not even clear on the point you're trying to make here.

Are you just dumb or a clown?

[Optms]

KD has to be up there

[Pelly24]

No, lol.

Kobe was a better robin to Shaq.

Pippen was a better robin to Jordan.

Gasol was a better robin to Kobe.

Wade was a better robin to Lebron.


Also Kyrie has been pretty lucky in his career with the guys he's been able to play with. He's had prime Lebron, prime KD, and Luka to play with...that's insane.

Lowry, who I thought was severely underrated on Toronto, played majority of his career with Derozan who is not a top 15 player and when he had Kawhi for 1 year they won a chip.

What if prime CP3, or prime Lillard or prime Lowry etc. played with guys like prime Lebron, Luka, Jokic, KD etc. in their careers for an extended period?

I think saying Gasol and Wade were better Robins is kind of generous. Wade was past his prime when LeBron won in 2k12 and 2k13, I don't think Kyrie is worse than him. He was for sure a better scorer and shooter.

I don't see how gasol is definitely better. Kyrie put up 25/5/5 on 50/40/90 +3 TS% with passable defense and low turnovers this year. The narratives still clouded things with him, but he was basically a top 12-15 guy this year. Mavs were good whether he was on the court by himself or with Luka. In this playoff run, he's outplayed PG, Harden, Ant and KAT so far, and he's faced tough defenses and been an awesome scorer, passer and defender and clutch performer. Mavs played at like a 55-win pace with him. Played at a 47-win pace without Luka, (and some of that was without Gafford, Lively and even PJ).

So Kyrie's been to at least the conference finals four different times with a near 10 year gap between the last one. Kyrie still underrated, but even as a No. 1 option, his team still won an average of 50 games and got to the second round. And as for luck, it also takes skill to succeed with LeBron and Luka. And just throwing players together doesn't work. We've seen Kyrie have elite stretches with Harden, KD, LeBron and now Luka. That's totally different players and systems and coaches, but Kyrie's production and efficiency have always remained high-level. That speaks to incredible, and very underrated skill malleability. Some people need to go to this system or that system or another system to be great, but with Kyrie, just throw him out there and the team will be better with him on the court. Very underrated and not easily replicated ability. It says something that these players wanted to play with him and they were all able to be their best selves *while* he was on the team.

Lowry doesn't really belong in the Kyrie convo anymore.

[Eagle4]

If we're saying Wade and Kobe were #1 options (which they were) then its clearly Pippen.

[LaLover11]

If we're saying Wade and Kobe were #1 options (which they were) then its clearly Pippen.

Pippen and big men are not included in this discussion
Only PG/SG