2024 Draft Thread - Part II

[DCZards]

Check out the film, folks. Castle is an elite perimeter defender. He sticks to his opponent like white on rice. Watch how frustrating it is for ballhandlers when Castle is tracking them around the perimeter or near the basket. That skill has nothing to do with having Clingan on his team.

Yes, Stephon has his offensive struggles. But, defensively, he’s essentially a 6’7 Jrue Holiday.

(Castle and Holiday also had very similar offensive #s in college.)

[Ed Wood]

The reason that a comparison to Davis is unfair is really that while Davis was overdrafted by a little there wasn't anything in that profile that predicted how much he'd struggle to adjust so even a relatively similar profile doesn't portend doom (and Castle was legitimately a fair bit better offensively even if he was also in a much better situation).

[Ed Wood]

This is also in distinguishing someone who's still like 4-8 ish on my "board" such as it exists and someone who's probably 2nd unless his medicals really are dire. Castle is one of the more appealing options in this draft overall, but I don't think he has quite the case a few options I'd rate above him do (also I don't necessarily think Topic is a very volatile low end option setting the health stuff aside - he's been a consistent producer and his playmaking and decision making seem to set a pretty solid baseline as a useful NBA player, so I don't think I'd equate him and like Buzelis or Holland who have very high upsides but aren't sure bets to be even reasonable NBA offensive contributors at least for a while).

[prime1time]

As compelling as Doc’s case for Castle is, and how good he looked on D I have trouble compensating for the bias I know is in my head for the player I saw more, that played for a successful team. He might be great, learn to shoot. But I don’t trust my own eye test on him.

Everyone has bias. It’s obviously okay to have an opinion that differs from another poster.

I like Anthony Black as a comparison for Castle. A guy that fit into a role on a good Arkansas team. Did all the little things and wasn’t about self. Ended up going 6th overall.

I'd agree that Anthony Black and Castle and Dyson Daniels are all in a similar track. I also agree I am biased towards Castle, in large part due to closer observation. I watched his games more than Arkansas and saw him grow into the role that was filled by junior Andre Jackson Jr in the prior year's championship run.

My assessment though has him as an upgraded Anthony Black. A better defender. Stronger. With ultimately more shot creation ability and better upside at the 3pt line. Longer wingspan, better frame to add strength, thus more versatile. He is aggressive and wants to score. His toughness will earn him a reputation and repetitions.

https://www.tankathon.com/players/compare?players=stephon-castle--anthony-black--andre-jackson-jr--dyson-daniels

I'd put Dyson Daniels ahead of him on defense. But like the potential of Castle as an 'I got this' scorer who will force the action and not shy from the moment at that end when necessary. This offense is the part that makes him a better prospect to me. Coaches reward players who can score. You get more developmental time and benefit of the calls by refs. Castles interior scoring will earn him chances to miss a few shots while he tools his mid-range game and out. It is part of his game that we did not see in college, but was his bread and butter coming up in Georgia ball and international play. It's the part that gives him under-recognized upside.

I noticed Castle when the pundits were tracking Collier, and scouting videos made these Castle vs Collier battles. I saw a kid with remarkable poise and an unrattled ability to make things happen while deep in traffic.

That he ended up playing for UConn was a bonus since my family follows men's and women's huskies teams since way back.
I was curious how that would fit on Uconn who already had a triple double threat in Newton. I figured Castle would understudy for him and maybe take over next year. A tall strong playmaker with rebounding bonafides, seemed like he'd be the ideal back-up while acclimated. I didn't see his defense being the thing that kept him on the floor. But he showed up early, and despite the meniscus setback became unbenchable.

You can read back through these threads, I've been up and down on most draft prospects. Castle included. As a rule I agree with Dat that in general you don't draft guards and wings who can't shoot from range. Its why I remain a Topić doubter. We have been stung by all the Bongas and Brown Jrs and Deni's and so on who enter the league with multi-tool games that are incomplete in that one aspect: putting the ball through the hoop.

However. Castle's championship run convinced me. The kid showed remarkable poise, stepping up his game when it was critical to do so. Yes he was not the designated shooter on the Huskies. That role was given to Cam and Karaban. But as the backdoor guy and screen assist and motion cutter and most reliable entry passer he filled a difficult off-the-ball role that is not easy to understand in a very complex offense. His chemistry with the Big was precocious and notable. When the team needed him to score he did so. When dared to shoot he hit the shots. And every game he proved the key defender on the perimeter. The Tournament is a crucible for guards. You usually do well recruiting the top guard off the Championship team. Why I knew players like Mario Chalmers and Kemba Walker would have better careers than where they were mocked by the experts. The best teams are usually the ones elevated by Guard play, especially in the early rounds. Castle brought cold water to players who had advanced due to hot shooting, every game.

I am biased towards winning play. It is not easy for a freshman to seize a star role on a Championship team. It was reasonable to expect UConn to drop off. They didn't and scouts all point to Castle and Clingan as the reason why. He's mocked at the top of the draft on those merits.

A more aggressive better scoring Anthony Black or Dyson Daniels is a damned good player.

Can you link any stats or plays that support your conclusions?

[Dat2U]

Check out the film, folks. Castle is an elite perimeter defender. He sticks to his opponent like white on rice. Watch how frustrating it is for ballhandlers when Castle is tracking them around the perimeter or near the basket. That skill has nothing to do with having Clingan on his team.

Yes, Stephon has his offensive struggles. But, defensively, he’s essentially a 6’7 Jrue Holiday.

(Castle and Holiday also had very similar offensive #s in college.)

And defensively he can be the greatest thing since sliced bread but if he struggles offensively, guess what?... he's getting moved off the ball or to the bench.

The league is filled with talented wing defenders that can't shoot and barely get minutes.

Ryan Dunn may be one of the best perimeter defenders to come into the league in recent memory. No one is talking about him as a 1st round pick because he's a **** show offensively. We are only talking about Castle at the top of the draft because you hope his offense becomes a weapon and not a crutch.

[Dat2U]

This is also in distinguishing someone who's still like 4-8 ish on my "board" such as it exists and someone who's probably 2nd unless his medicals really are dire. Castle is one of the more appealing options in this draft overall, but I don't think he has quite the case a few options I'd rate above him do (also I don't necessarily think Topic is a very volatile low end option setting the health stuff aside - he's been a consistent producer and his playmaking and decision making seem to set a pretty solid baseline as a useful NBA player, so I don't think I'd equate him and like Buzelis or Holland who have very high upsides but aren't sure bets to be even reasonable NBA offensive contributors at least for a while).

Huge point here. I hate sounding like I'm constantly trashing someone when they are still are a lottery pick to me.

I have stated I don't want Clingan but honestly he's 6th or 7th on my board. Even Castle is late lottery.

[NatP4]

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[DCZards]

Check out the film, folks. Castle is an elite perimeter defender. He sticks to his opponent like white on rice. Watch how frustrating it is for ballhandlers when Castle is tracking them around the perimeter or near the basket. That skill has nothing to do with having Clingan on his team.

Yes, Stephon has his offensive struggles. But, defensively, he’s essentially a 6’7 Jrue Holiday.

(Castle and Holiday also had very similar offensive #s in college.)

And defensively he can be the greatest thing since sliced bread but if he struggles offensively, guess what?... he's getting moved off the ball or to the bench.

The league is filled with talented wing defenders that can't shoot and barely get minutes.

Ryan Dunn may be one of the best perimeter defenders to come into the league in recent memory. No one is talking about him as a 1st round pick because he's a **** show offensively. We are only talking about Castle at the top of the draft because you hope his offense becomes a weapon and not a crutch.

Castle may not currently be a good shooter but with his smarts and ability to finish at the rim I think he’ll score in the NBA while he improves his outside shooting.

As someone said earlier, we all have our biases. My bias is toward defenders...that’s why I wanted the Zards to draft Leonard, and toward heady guys who play the right way and are winners…that’s why I was trying to convince you and others that Brunson would be a good NBA player. Castle has both those attributes.

[dckingsfan]

Is Castle “elite” defensively, or simply good?..

Well, that is the gamble right? Will his defensive skills translate to the NBA?

I could see the FO taking a gamble on either Castle for his D or Topic for his offense.

We are only talking about Castle at the top of the draft because you hope his offense becomes a weapon and not a crutch.

This. You are hoping for an elite defender that works like heck to develop his offense.

BTW, this was in reference to trading down to 7.

[tontoz]

For perimeter players i think the most important attribute is half court shot creation. For a C i think the most important attribute is the ability to protect the rim. I am far more inclined to draft a good defensive C with questionable offense than a perimeter player in that same scenario.

[Rafael122]

So if I understand this correctly, we actually don't know if Castle is elite defensively because it's entirely possible it may be skewed by a guy like Clingan stopping everything. So if Castle's shooting isn't there yet, and we have true questions about his defense...what is his NBA calling card then?

[dckingsfan]

So if I understand this correctly, we actually don't know if Castle is elite defensively because it's entirely possible it may be skewed by a guy like Clingan stopping everything. So if Castle's shooting isn't there yet, and we have true questions about his defense...what is his NBA calling card then?

Posted earlier that their defense performed really well with Clingan off the court and Castle on the court.

[TGW]

So if I understand this correctly, we actually don't know if Castle is elite defensively because it's entirely possible it may be skewed by a guy like Clingan stopping everything. So if Castle's shooting isn't there yet, and we have true questions about his defense...what is his NBA calling card then?

Posted earlier that their defense performed really well with Clingan off the court and Castle on the court.

Their defense was better with Clingan/No Castle as opposed to Castle/No Clingan, which tells me the defensive system was really good at UConn. Anyway, I do think Castle would defend the 1 about as well as anyone in the league. It's his offense ability (or lack of) that scares me.

[dckingsfan]

So if I understand this correctly, we actually don't know if Castle is elite defensively because it's entirely possible it may be skewed by a guy like Clingan stopping everything. So if Castle's shooting isn't there yet, and we have true questions about his defense...what is his NBA calling card then?

Posted earlier that their defense performed really well with Clingan off the court and Castle on the court.

Their defense was better with Clingan/No Castle as opposed to Castle/No Clingan, which tells me the defensive system was really good at UConn. Anyway, I do think Castle would defend the 1 about as well as anyone in the league. It's his offense ability (or lack of) that scares me.

Yep, that is the gamble for sure. I guess equally so with Topic the other way.

For perimeter players i think the most important attribute is half court shot creation. For a C i think the most important attribute is the ability to protect the rim. I am far more inclined to draft a good defensive C with questionable offense than a perimeter player in that same scenario.

And that would be the argument for not trading down if Sarr is there. I do think that Sarr will be more of a PF(?). At least initially. But paired with Deni (and his rebounding ability), that is probably fine.

I do think that if you take Sarr, you need to move Kuz sooner rather than later.

My 1/2 cent.

[nate33]

So if I understand this correctly, we actually don't know if Castle is elite defensively because it's entirely possible it may be skewed by a guy like Clingan stopping everything. So if Castle's shooting isn't there yet, and we have true questions about his defense...what is his NBA calling card then?

How can you "know" how much any individual defender contributes to defense? It's all subjective.

[Rafael122]

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Are we officially crossing him off the list?

[tontoz]

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Are we officially crossing him off the list?

That is definitely a problem. Hard to pick him at 2 with that imo.

[dckingsfan]

Spoiler:

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Are we officially crossing him off the list?

I posted this earlier. If you trade with Portland, I would be happy to take him at 14 if he was available and let him rehab for a year.

[80sballboy]

Not worth picking Topic at 2. He might slide way down the list. Now if he shockingly slides to 26, that's fine. Or if we trade Kuzma for 1 or 2 middle picks, I'd take him if he's there.

[Dat2U]

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Are we officially crossing him off the list?

That is definitely a problem. Hard to pick him at 2 with that imo.

Whew. I really feel for him. I think he'll miss most if not all next season. An ACL tear is nothing to sneeze at and it absolutely removes him from consideration at 2 as it's no guarantee he returns at 100%. It's just about how far he falls - possibly out of the lottery.