An early summer 2024 thread

[Wammy Giveaway]

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There has been a growing movement in going only after "last year" college players. They want the most mature, NBA-ready type player out there. No more amateurism, straight out of high school selection... as if they're afraid of something. And I now know why.

The Clipper's history of high school selections is brief: only Darius Miles, Tyson Chandler and Shaun Livingston. Miles left Clippers after his rookie contract and Chandler was a draft day trade; they'd keep Livingston though. Stayed up to their first ever playoff success in 2006 with Elton Brand and Sam Cassell, defeating Nuggets in 1st round, then taking Suns to 7 games in the 2nd.

But then in 2007, the infamous hat trick of leg injuries: ACL, PCL and MCL, all in one huge go. There was a chance his leg would have to be amputated. Livingston would persevere, but Clippers didn't believe so they let him go.

The Clipper's greatest fear is another gruesome injury like Livingston if they went after a player with little to no college experience. That is why they have turned their attention exclusively to college-only players that have been specifically deemed NBA-ready, as if those guys have a lesser if not zero chance of an injury that would linger for years, or worse a catastrophic one.

They really need to face their fears.

[madmaxmedia]

The Clipper's history of high school selections is brief: only Darius Miles, Tyson Chandler and Shaun Livingston. Miles left Clippers after his rookie contract and Chandler was a draft day trade; they'd keep Livingston though. Stayed up to their first ever playoff success in 2006 with Elton Brand and Sam Cassell, defeating Nuggets in 1st round, then taking Suns to 7 games in the 2nd.
...
The Clipper's greatest fear is another gruesome injury like Livingston if they went after a player with little to no college experience. That is why they have turned their attention exclusively to college-only players that have been specifically deemed NBA-ready, as if those guys have a lesser if not zero chance of an injury that would linger for years, or worse a catastrophic one.

That's actually really interesting. TBH they did great with their HS picks, I think we should actually be focusing on drafting the youngest prospects possible.

I think the Clippers' great fear though is getting guys who can't contribute sooner than later (later be damned!) The moment the big trade was made the focus has always been 'win now,' unfortunately at the expense of best overall mid to long term talent.

[KL2]

We’re so close!! Hopefully they can make us number 1 this summer.

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[esqtvd]

Let's also not pretend like 163-329 wasn't bookended by 17 championships before it and another one after it.{/quote]



Lakers fans talk this shttt. 17 championships. blahblahblah George Mikan. Kobe died. Let's update our software.

Truth be told, I would gladly sign up for 163-329 with a championship afterwards.

Gladly 6 years of misery to win the Mickey Mouse trophy then have to rebuild again? The Lakers are selling Reaves, Hachimura and Christie as their "core?" What a joke. An undrafted FA made good, a draft bust and Christie, a 4.3 ppg scorer? Oh yeah, that's inspiring.


If that's a rebuild, I'm a Kardashian. Ballmer says fk that. It's his vote that counts.

And I agree. I suffered through The Process in Philly and they're still no closer to a title. Just play it straight. Put the best team you can get out on the floor and let the chips fall where they may. Six different champions in 6 years now. Master Plans DO NOT work.

[Quake Griffin]

Intuit is going to be a hot ticket and the place to be. Another reason we can't blow it up and do a rebuild right now.

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It’s the only so called reason.****
And not much of a reason itself.

Not attempting to remedy the situation and refusing to try and build a champion for 6 years (2030 is when we our no longer OKC’s bitch) IS NOT an answer. So there isn’t some second reason either.

[MartinToVaught]

Let's also not pretend like 163-329 wasn't bookended by 17 championships before it and another one after it.{/quote]



Lakers fans talk this shttt. 17 championships. blahblahblah George Mikan. Kobe died. Let's update our software.

Truth be told, I would gladly sign up for 163-329 with a championship afterwards.

Gladly 6 years of misery to win the Mickey Mouse trophy then have to rebuild again? The Lakers are selling Reaves, Hachimura and Christie as their "core?" What a joke. An undrafted FA made good, a draft bust and Christie, a 4.3 ppg scorer? Oh yeah, that's inspiring.


If that's a rebuild, I'm a Kardashian. Ballmer says fk that. It's his vote that counts.

And I agree. I suffered through The Process in Philly and they're still no closer to a title. Just play it straight. Put the best team you can get out on the floor and let the chips fall where they may. Six different champions in 6 years now. Master Plans DO NOT work.

I'm not bringing up the Lakers' past titles to talk **** or whatever you want to call it. It's to make the point that having a few down years after winning a ton of championships is objectively less painful than being stuck on the treadmill of mediocrity after never winning anything of note. If you polled NBA fans, I guarantee the majority would pick "a few down years + championships" over "consistent regular-season wins + first/second-round exits," because the goal of any sport is to win championships, not to limp to an above .500 regular-season record with the oldest, slowest, least athletic team you can assemble.

Beyond all that, it strikes me as dumb to even consider how other fanbases feel about their teams when looking at what's best for our team. How Philly fans felt about the Sixers in 2014 is completely irrelevant to how screwed this iteration of the Clippers is in 2024.

If "master plans don't work," then I'm not sure why you're lashing out at any alternative to Ballmer's "master plan" of staying eternally mediocre with a roster of 40-year-olds.

[og15]

2024-2025 Salary Numbers
Salary Cap: $141,000,00
Luxury: $171,315,000
First Apron: $178,655,000
Second Apron: $189,485,000
Minimum Salary: $126,900,00

Starting Max Salaries:
0-6 years - $35,250,000
7-9 years - $42,300,000
10+ years - $49,350,000

Exceptions:
Non-Tax Mid-Level - $12,859,000
Room Mid-Level - $8,006,000
Tax Mid-Level - $5,183,000
Bi-Annual - $4,681,000

First Apron Penalties:
Trade salaries must be within 110%
Can't take more money in a trade than you send out
Can't acquire sign and trade players if you remain above apron after trade
Can't sign waived players if his waived salary is above MLE ($12,859,00)

Second Apron Penalties:
Everything above plus...
No exceptions available
Can't combine salaries to trade for 1 player who makes more money
Can't use trade exceptions from past years
Can't use cash in a trade


Clippers committed salary (plus George, Tucker and Westbrook option):
$174,154,522

Clippers committed salary (minus George and Westbrook, Tucker is taking his money):
$121,339,321

Cap Space without George and Westbrook:
$19,660,679

So let's say George goes to Philly or whatever, Harden is not re-signed, the Clippers would end up with $19.7 million in cap space, not significant money to sign any players of consequence, but they would be back in the market for things like sign and trades.

It's not necessarily a booming free agent market, but Clippers could then look at guys like Tyus Jones at PG, that's at least like $15M. A cheaper older "star" would have the be the other option as any young star is a max guy, so you're looking at like DeRozan type guy and looking at a sign and trade option, and that's at least like $30M, though I'm not sure how that would all work, and I'm not a DeRozan guy and he's much worse than Harden and George but would demand far less salary from the market and you can give few years and with a team option.

The goal is to still field a competitive team, so you can look for a PF with some range like a Jalen Smith or someone, he likely could be had less than MLE, maybe like $8M (who knows what his market is), so altogether that's still like $53 million in salary which would put the team at $174M and in luxury but below apron and with 12 players. Then you can re-sign guys like Boston to fill out the roster.

This is just a random rough idea based on scenarios which the realistic nature of them haven't been examined. Then from there you have to figure out a future plan of getting assets and getting younger. A guy like Mann can get you a late 1st from a team trying to compete for example, and then you can live with Coffey in his role. Of course trades are always more realistic in theory than real life.

[esqtvd]

2024-2025 Salary Numbers
Salary Cap: $141,000,00
Luxury: $171,315,000
First Apron: $178,655,000
Second Apron: $189,485,000
Minimum Salary: $126,900,00

Starting Max Salaries:
0-6 years - $35,250,000
7-9 years - $42,300,000
10+ years - $49,350,000

Exceptions:
Non-Tax Mid-Level - $12,859,000
Room Mid-Level - $8,006,000
Tax Mid-Level - $5,183,000
Bi-Annual - $4,681,000

First Apron Penalties:
Trade salaries must be within 110%
Can't take more money in a trade than you send out
Can't acquire sign and trade players if you remain above apron after trade
Can't sign waived players if his waived salary is above MLE ($12,859,00)

Second Apron Penalties:
Everything above plus...
No exceptions available
Can't combine salaries to trade for 1 player who makes more money
Can't use trade exceptions from past years
Can't use cash in a trade


Clippers committed salary (plus George, Tucker and Westbrook option):
$174,154,522

Clippers committed salary (minus George and Westbrook, Tucker is taking his money):
$121,339,321

Cap Space without George and Westbrook:
$19,660,679

So let's say George goes to Philly or whatever, Harden is not re-signed, the Clippers would end up with $19.7 million in cap space, not significant money to sign any players of consequence, but they would be back in the market for things like sign and trades.

It's not necessarily a booming free agent market, but Clippers could then look at guys like Tyus Jones at PG, that's at least like $15M. A cheaper older "star" would have the be the other option as any young star is a max guy, so you're looking at like DeRozan type guy and looking at a sign and trade option, and that's at least like $30M, though I'm not sure how that would all work, and I'm not a DeRozan guy and he's much worse than Harden and George but would demand far less salary from the market and you can give few years and with a team option.

The goal is to still field a competitive team, so you can look for a PF with some range like a Jalen Smith or someone, he likely could be had less than MLE, maybe like $8M (who knows what his market is), so altogether that's still like $53 million in salary which would put the team at $174M and in luxury but below apron and with 12 players. Then you can re-sign guys like Boston to fill out the roster.

This is just a random rough idea based on scenarios which the realistic nature of them haven't been examined. Then from there you have to figure out a future plan of getting assets and getting younger. A guy like Mann can get you a late 1st from a team trying to compete for example, and then you can live with Coffey in his role. Of course trades are always more realistic in theory than real life.

That's a 25-win team with very little chance of developing into even the also-ran we are now. Which is why Ballmer ain't gonna do it. With the cupboard empty of any chance of even a top-15 pick let alone top 10, there is no alternative except muddling through and cobbling together the best roster the CBA allows. This is still LA, the best weather, entertainment connections, facilities, a respected coach and the richest owner.

The Ballmer strategy is: Build It, and they will come.

[madmaxmedia]

So let's say George goes to Philly or whatever, Harden is not re-signed, the Clippers would end up with $19.7 million in cap space, not significant money to sign any players of consequence, but they would be back in the market for things like sign and trades.

It's not necessarily a booming free agent market, but Clippers could then look at guys like Tyus Jones at PG, that's at least like $15M. A cheaper older "star" would have the be the other option as any young star is a max guy, so you're looking at like DeRozan type guy and looking at a sign and trade option, and that's at least like $30M, though I'm not sure how that would all work, and I'm not a DeRozan guy and he's much worse than Harden and George but would demand far less salary from the market and you can give few years and with a team option.

The goal is to still field a competitive team, so you can look for a PF with some range like a Jalen Smith or someone, he likely could be had less than MLE, maybe like $8M (who knows what his market is), so altogether that's still like $53 million in salary which would put the team at $174M and in luxury but below apron and with 12 players. Then you can re-sign guys like Boston to fill out the roster.

This is just a random rough idea based on scenarios which the realistic nature of them haven't been examined. Then from there you have to figure out a future plan of getting assets and getting younger. A guy like Mann can get you a late 1st from a team trying to compete for example, and then you can live with Coffey in his role. Of course trades are always more realistic in theory than real life.

I'm not even sure what I consider the worst case scenario. Actually, I do- it would be giving both PG and James too long contracts, and in the case of James too much money (though I think that's a lower risk right now.)

If PG decides to go to the Sixers, I think we'd still be better of re-signing James than look elsewhere since we do have Bird right with him. I think he's better than anyone we could get with that $19.7M.

[og15]

So let's say George goes to Philly or whatever, Harden is not re-signed, the Clippers would end up with $19.7 million in cap space, not significant money to sign any players of consequence, but they would be back in the market for things like sign and trades.

It's not necessarily a booming free agent market, but Clippers could then look at guys like Tyus Jones at PG, that's at least like $15M. A cheaper older "star" would have the be the other option as any young star is a max guy, so you're looking at like DeRozan type guy and looking at a sign and trade option, and that's at least like $30M, though I'm not sure how that would all work, and I'm not a DeRozan guy and he's much worse than Harden and George but would demand far less salary from the market and you can give few years and with a team option.

The goal is to still field a competitive team, so you can look for a PF with some range like a Jalen Smith or someone, he likely could be had less than MLE, maybe like $8M (who knows what his market is), so altogether that's still like $53 million in salary which would put the team at $174M and in luxury but below apron and with 12 players. Then you can re-sign guys like Boston to fill out the roster.

This is just a random rough idea based on scenarios which the realistic nature of them haven't been examined. Then from there you have to figure out a future plan of getting assets and getting younger. A guy like Mann can get you a late 1st from a team trying to compete for example, and then you can live with Coffey in his role. Of course trades are always more realistic in theory than real life.

I'm not even sure what I consider the worst case scenario. Actually, I do- it would be giving both PG and James too long contracts, and in the case of James too much money (though I think that's a lower risk right now.)

If PG decides to go to the Sixers, I think we'd still be better of re-signing James than look elsewhere since we do have Bird right with him. I think he's better than anyone we could get with that $19.7M.

Yup, and that's the issue when you don't have massive cap space, you simply can't replace the caliber of player you would be losing. Sometimes people talk of these situations as if the team gets that players level of salary to work with.

2024-2025 Salary Numbers
Salary Cap: $141,000,00
Luxury: $171,315,000
First Apron: $178,655,000
Second Apron: $189,485,000
Minimum Salary: $126,900,00

Starting Max Salaries:
0-6 years - $35,250,000
7-9 years - $42,300,000
10+ years - $49,350,000

Exceptions:
Non-Tax Mid-Level - $12,859,000
Room Mid-Level - $8,006,000
Tax Mid-Level - $5,183,000
Bi-Annual - $4,681,000

First Apron Penalties:
Trade salaries must be within 110%
Can't take more money in a trade than you send out
Can't acquire sign and trade players if you remain above apron after trade
Can't sign waived players if his waived salary is above MLE ($12,859,00)

Second Apron Penalties:
Everything above plus...
No exceptions available
Can't combine salaries to trade for 1 player who makes more money
Can't use trade exceptions from past years
Can't use cash in a trade


Clippers committed salary (plus George, Tucker and Westbrook option):
$174,154,522

Clippers committed salary (minus George and Westbrook, Tucker is taking his money):
$121,339,321

Cap Space without George and Westbrook:
$19,660,679

So let's say George goes to Philly or whatever, Harden is not re-signed, the Clippers would end up with $19.7 million in cap space, not significant money to sign any players of consequence, but they would be back in the market for things like sign and trades.

It's not necessarily a booming free agent market, but Clippers could then look at guys like Tyus Jones at PG, that's at least like $15M. A cheaper older "star" would have the be the other option as any young star is a max guy, so you're looking at like DeRozan type guy and looking at a sign and trade option, and that's at least like $30M, though I'm not sure how that would all work, and I'm not a DeRozan guy and he's much worse than Harden and George but would demand far less salary from the market and you can give few years and with a team option.

The goal is to still field a competitive team, so you can look for a PF with some range like a Jalen Smith or someone, he likely could be had less than MLE, maybe like $8M (who knows what his market is), so altogether that's still like $53 million in salary which would put the team at $174M and in luxury but below apron and with 12 players. Then you can re-sign guys like Boston to fill out the roster.

This is just a random rough idea based on scenarios which the realistic nature of them haven't been examined. Then from there you have to figure out a future plan of getting assets and getting younger. A guy like Mann can get you a late 1st from a team trying to compete for example, and then you can live with Coffey in his role. Of course trades are always more realistic in theory than real life.

That's a 25-win team with very little chance of developing into even the also-ran we are now. Which is why Ballmer ain't gonna do it. With the cupboard empty of any chance of even a top-15 pick let alone top 10, there is no alternative except muddling through and cobbling together the best roster the CBA allows. This is still LA, the best weather, entertainment connections, facilities, a respected coach and the richest owner.

The Ballmer strategy is: Build It, and they will come.

Bulls won 39 games, so with DeRozan and Jones and the yearly 60 games of Kawhi, you're still going to get a team winning close to 50 games, just not anything close to a contender. Now of course the backlash argument people will make is that the previous team has been first round fodder (due mainly to Kawhi injuries btw), and yes, true, but they have at least had greater upper limit. The theoretical made up teams upper limit would be 2nd round.

The biggest thing in the end will be contract lengths. With no draft picks owned by the team, there's just not much value in not fielding the most competitive team they can, at least for the short term, then you can begin to re-structure things around for the future.

[ejftw]

My targets. IDK how to actually get it done.

Reasonable targets
Kyle kuzma
Collin Sexton
Ben Simmons
Andre Drummond

Unreasonable targets
Darius Garland
Trae Young

I don't see Kuz nor Sexton as realistic targets. Due to the CBA, neither is Simmons as Clips can't aggregate unless it's in a George opt in and trade move. Drummond could probably be had for the minimum, but who knows if he'd be content being Zu's backup.

Wonder if we can convince Paul that the Nets are gonna take the next step, get Simmons' expiring with, say, the Suns 25 FRP, the worst of the Rockets/Nets 27 FRP and the 6ers 27 FRP.

Of course, that's going under the assumption that George is gone and to try to salvage something out of it.

why would anyone want Simmons? He is the most injury prone player in the NBA- even more than Kawhi and Simmons is a very flawed player even when he is healthy

I mean, I was running that scenario with the assumption that George wants out, and if he can be convinced to join the Nets with an opt in and trade then Nets extend him, that isn't a horrible outcome versus just losing him.

Yeah it keeps us in the second apron, but does give a big salary as ballast that's expiring and picks to use. Hell, say we continue to go full (Please Use More Appropriate Word), swap that package to Utah for Markannen and Sexton. Or even more extreme with Washington with two of those firsts with Simmons for Kuzma/Kispert/Butler and a second deal (due to CBA) for PJ Tucker.

Man, this new CBA just made any scenario looks so bleak. Teamed with giving up more control for James Harden

[MartinToVaught]

The Ballmer strategy is: Build It, and they will come.

When has he actually built anything? He inherited Lob City, then gave up on the post-Lob City rebuild before it really got started to splurge for the next big names.

If that was his strategy, the entire front office would have been replaced years ago from Frank on down to the scouts, because nobody there has the slightest clue about how to build a team.

[esqtvd]

The Ballmer strategy is: Build It, and they will come.

When has he actually built anything? He inherited Lob City, then gave up on the post-Lob City rebuild before it really got started to splurge for the next big names.

If that was his strategy, the entire front office would have been replaced years ago from Frank on down to the scouts, because nobody there has the slightest clue about how to build a team.

You haven't been following. Ballmer went all-in on 213, then doubled down with Beard. At that point, another pick or two in 4 years wasn't gonna make any difference in the long run. The 213 window was closing and he went for it.

Looks like it won't work but fielding 25-win teams with Terance Mann as the star surrounded by 25-year-old G-Leaguers ain't gonna build anything any quicker. So you field the best team you can and enjoy the ride. Maybe Kawhi will actually make it through an entire playoff before he retires.

[MartinToVaught]

Slapping some names together isn't the same as building a team. We haven't had a coherent roster in years.

[Bobbymcgee]

Clippers should of gotten Holiday.

Leonard, Holiday and George would of been a nice defensive trio of wing players.

[Roscoe Sheed]

Clippers should of gotten Holiday.

Leonard, Holiday and George would of been a nice defensive trio of wing players.

would have been nice for sure- he is so versatile on both sides of the court, but the results likely would have been the same with Kawhi injured

[esqtvd]

Slapping some names together isn't the same as building a team. We haven't had a coherent roster in years.

Did Kawhi get worn out by being the de facto 4 without a genuine PF? It's arguable. The domino effect.

But it also excuses Ty for playing Batum as much as his body would take last year, doing everything he could to get useful minutes out of Mook and then PJ. And FTR, Kobe Brown got about the same number of minutes this year as PJ, and did as bad or worse. He neither shoots the 3 nor rebounds, and a rookie does not D at an NBA level and the numbers showed it.

What DID work was starting T-Mann, although at 6-5, it totally squandered the height advantage of our bookend wings [PG 6-7, KL 6-8] who are even a little taller than Tatum and Brown, who are in position to cruise to the title. But that lineup went 26-5, and it was a REAL 26-5 that included shocking the Celts IN The Garden.

L-Frank CAN be blamed for making KL work too hard but that's an indirect blame. Starting Mann worked and Ty did find the right combination, sending Russ and Powell to the bench. I bet Mann could have fetched a decent roleplayer 4 in trade, but Ballmer has the veto. [For one thing, Philly wanted Mann and would gladly have let us keep Batum instead. It appeared it was Ballmer who said no.]

[esqtvd]

Clippers should of gotten Holiday.

Leonard, Holiday and George would of been a nice defensive trio of wing players.

would have been nice for sure- he is so versatile on both sides of the court, but the results likely would have been the same with Kawhi injured

JOB ONE has to be to lighten the load on Kawhi, since we're stuck with him. A big, not a guard.

As for Jrue, FTR--He cost Boston 2 FRPs plus Brogdon plus he has another FOUR years on his contract through age 37 @ $30M+. He was no bargain.

[Quake Griffin]

Clippers should of gotten Holiday.

Leonard, Holiday and George would of been a nice defensive trio of wing players.

Actually thought we had a serious front office trying to trade for Brogdon. Would have kept that thought if they pivoted and traded for Jrue.

Instead, we got old, out of shape, playoff choking Harden.

[KL2]

Good grief.

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