An early summer 2024 thread

[KL2]

Ok. Whew. He didn’t cut his hair. I can’t believe I’m even commenting on this. I’ll leave out the side door now.

[madmaxmedia]

But what's the point in having the richest owner in the NBA, if not sports, if you're not going to overpay and try to figure out later?

The point should be for him to spend that money on building the best front office and coaching staff in the world so we're not stuck with a team of 35-year-olds expecting max contracts based on what they used to do in their primes and barely any young players with upside.

Sure but with limited draft assets, you're not helping the situation if you let a player walk who might be able to bring back some draft assets, though at his age, teams may balk.

But he's still playing at an all-star/all-NBA level.

I don't think it's an absolute slam dunk either way, but giving a 34-year old who started physically declining 1-2 years ago a 4-year max is going to end up a net negative value overall. He's not the mentally toughest guy, the guy who will battle Father Time tooth and nail as he gets older, he's the guy who says the beauty of old age is not feeling the pressure.

We are a worse team next year if PG leaves. We are a worse team in year 3 and 4 of a max contract if we sign him to a 4-year deal IMO, which is why I don't want that for the team. I think it will be an overall net negative deal, regardless of what we gave up for him, what we can or can't do if he walks, etc.

I think a 3-year deal would be much more palatable. It would have better trade value if it comes to that, and the 3rd year becomes an expiring if he's no longer worth the money by then. A year closer to that is important for a 34 year old.

213 is over regardless, so I'm no longer prioritizing the present over 3-4 years from now.

[wco81]

That's true, his age is advanced. He does have crazy length though, so he doesn't have to rely on his athleticism as much. He's skilled ball handler and obviously a very good if not elite shooter.

I forgot that he has a player option. But I don't know why a team like Philly or Orlando would do a sign and trade deal to give up assets when they have cap space.

Only if a team like the Knicks convince him to join them and then they have the assets to give the Clippers something in return.

Maybe with a sign and trade he would get more money or years or both?

[KL2]

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[og15]

That's true, his age is advanced. He does have crazy length though, so he doesn't have to rely on his athleticism as much. He's skilled ball handler and obviously a very good if not elite shooter.

I forgot that he has a player option. But I don't know why a team like Philly or Orlando would do a sign and trade deal to give up assets when they have cap space.

Only if a team like the Knicks convince him to join them and then they have the assets to give the Clippers something in return.

Maybe with a sign and trade he would get more money or years or both?

I'm not really sure a sign and trade would be truly possible for the Clippers as they would be in second apron territory with Harden and George cap holds and trade options would be pretty restricted.

[Clemenza]

I mean, this is exactly why I've kept saying that the "run it back" plan is nowhere near the guaranteed way to avoid disaster and stay in the playoffs like Ballmer, Frank and half the fans seem to think it is.

The way I see it, running it back has always relied on several layers of assumptions:

• All of our free agents actually wanting to stay
• All of our stars staying healthy all regular season
• None of our stars falling off with age and becoming unplayable overnight
• None of the teams behind us improving at all

#1 is looking shaky at best because it is starting to feel like PG would rather be a Sixer. #2 already seems doubtful with all this talk of Kawhi not being ready yet. #4 is definitely not going to happen when Memphis is getting Ja back and at least one of Houston and San Antonio will make the leap, if not both. I hate to break it to everyone, but it's not actually going to take much for our team of 35-year-olds to fall out of playoff contention and start handing OKC lottery picks.

That's not even getting into how the new CBA will set us back another decade just from trying to pay all these guys for their past production. "Run it back so OKC won't get the picks" is really just an emotional response, the logic falls apart the longer you think about it.

I agree pretty much with everything, but the problem is that usually we'll have at least one card in our deck for a rebuild, if not two or three. Like a couple of first round picks that we fully control. I highly tradable player like Blake. A nice window of cap space. A guy that's 100% up next to break out and become "that guy", etc. I kind of thought BBJ during his rookie season was on track to replace PG or Kawhi one day, at least by his third season. Bones might be ready for a bigger role, but its still not a guarantee. Basically we have to have some type of positive or ace in hole for a complete rebuild. And this new CBA makes it ten times worse. Can't buy 2nd round picks anymore. Not even sure if we could do a sign and trade for PG while in the 2nd apron. Just think in 2019 we actually had "that guy" in SGA, all of our picks, and open cap space! The sky was the limit! I get not being afraid and just move on from 213, but our current situation is more like a guy saying he wants to buy a big new house with a salary of $30K a year. It also would be a completely different story if our role players weren't just as old as 213 and we had a knack and penchant for playing youngsters and finding diamonds in the rough.

I get a fearless attitude since 213 is on fumes, but there's literally nothing in our favor to pull this off in the next few years. Al the "Get Derozen, CP3, Lowery, Kelly Olynik, etc." sounds worse than simple running it back imo. Me personally, I say run it back but replace the older role players with the youth. That would be my plan.

[Roscoe Sheed]

I mean, this is exactly why I've kept saying that the "run it back" plan is nowhere near the guaranteed way to avoid disaster and stay in the playoffs like Ballmer, Frank and half the fans seem to think it is.

The way I see it, running it back has always relied on several layers of assumptions:

• All of our free agents actually wanting to stay
• All of our stars staying healthy all regular season
• None of our stars falling off with age and becoming unplayable overnight
• None of the teams behind us improving at all

#1 is looking shaky at best because it is starting to feel like PG would rather be a Sixer. #2 already seems doubtful with all this talk of Kawhi not being ready yet. #4 is definitely not going to happen when Memphis is getting Ja back and at least one of Houston and San Antonio will make the leap, if not both. I hate to break it to everyone, but it's not actually going to take much for our team of 35-year-olds to fall out of playoff contention and start handing OKC lottery picks.

That's not even getting into how the new CBA will set us back another decade just from trying to pay all these guys for their past production. "Run it back so OKC won't get the picks" is really just an emotional response, the logic falls apart the longer you think about it.

I agree pretty much with everything, but the problem is that usually we'll have at least one card in our deck for a rebuild, if not two or three. Like a couple of first round picks that we fully control. I highly tradable player like Blake. A nice window of cap space. A guy that's 100% up next to break out and become "that guy", etc. I kind of thought BBJ during his rookie season was on track to replace PG or Kawhi one day, at least by his third season. Bones might be ready for a bigger role, but its still not a guarantee. Basically we have to have some type of positive or ace in hole for a complete rebuild. And this new CBA makes it ten times worse. Can't buy 2nd round picks anymore. Not even sure if we could do a sign and trade for PG while in the 2nd apron. Just think in 2019 we actually had "that guy" in SGA, all of our picks, and open cap space! The sky was the limit! I get not being afraid and just move on from 213, but our current situation is more like a guy saying he wants to buy a big new house with a salary of $30K a year. It also would be a completely different story if our role players weren't just as old as 213 and we had a knack and penchant for playing youngsters and finding diamonds in the rough.

I get a fearless attitude since 213 is on fumes, but there's literally nothing in our favor to pull this off in the next few years. Al the "Get Derozen, CP3, Lowery, Kelly Olynik, etc." sounds worse than simple running it back imo. Me personally, I say run it back but replace the older role players with the youth. That would be my plan.

I agree- I think you are right on the money in terms of facing the reality of the situation.

I get the frustration of the fan base, but what is realistically possible vs what people want is very far apart. I think they need to roll with the current roster with upgrades of talent and youth in terms of secondary players as you mentioned. They can fully rebuild 3-4 years from now

[MartinToVaught]

I agree pretty much with everything, but the problem is that usually we'll have at least one card in our deck for a rebuild, if not two or three. Like a couple of first round picks that we fully control. I highly tradable player like Blake. A nice window of cap space. A guy that's 100% up next to break out and become "that guy", etc.

I get all that, but the reality is, we're screwed and have nothing but bad choices. To me, the worst of those bad choices would be to go over the second apron to keep all these guys when there's a very good chance we'll still end up gifting free lottery picks to OKC anyway.

This is precisely why I've been saying for years that the whole front office needs to be fired. 29 other teams would have fired these guys after last year when it was already evident how screwed we were and how clueless they are.

Me personally, I say run it back but replace the older role players with the youth. That would be my plan.

I don't see any way that happens. As long as the washed "stars" are still here, this team will continue to be in win-now mode whether they're capable of winning now or not, and that will always be the excuse to not develop young players.

[og15]

I mean, this is exactly why I've kept saying that the "run it back" plan is nowhere near the guaranteed way to avoid disaster and stay in the playoffs like Ballmer, Frank and half the fans seem to think it is.

The way I see it, running it back has always relied on several layers of assumptions:

• All of our free agents actually wanting to stay
• All of our stars staying healthy all regular season
• None of our stars falling off with age and becoming unplayable overnight
• None of the teams behind us improving at all

#1 is looking shaky at best because it is starting to feel like PG would rather be a Sixer. #2 already seems doubtful with all this talk of Kawhi not being ready yet. #4 is definitely not going to happen when Memphis is getting Ja back and at least one of Houston and San Antonio will make the leap, if not both. I hate to break it to everyone, but it's not actually going to take much for our team of 35-year-olds to fall out of playoff contention and start handing OKC lottery picks.

That's not even getting into how the new CBA will set us back another decade just from trying to pay all these guys for their past production. "Run it back so OKC won't get the picks" is really just an emotional response, the logic falls apart the longer you think about it.

I agree pretty much with everything, but the problem is that usually we'll have at least one card in our deck for a rebuild, if not two or three. Like a couple of first round picks that we fully control. I highly tradable player like Blake. A nice window of cap space. A guy that's 100% up next to break out and become "that guy", etc. I kind of thought BBJ during his rookie season was on track to replace PG or Kawhi one day, at least by his third season. Bones might be ready for a bigger role, but its still not a guarantee. Basically we have to have some type of positive or ace in hole for a complete rebuild. And this new CBA makes it ten times worse. Can't buy 2nd round picks anymore. Not even sure if we could do a sign and trade for PG while in the 2nd apron. Just think in 2019 we actually had "that guy" in SGA, all of our picks, and open cap space! The sky was the limit! I get not being afraid and just move on from 213, but our current situation is more like a guy saying he wants to buy a big new house with a salary of $30K a year. It also would be a completely different story if our role players weren't just as old as 213 and we had a knack and penchant for playing youngsters and finding diamonds in the rough.

I get a fearless attitude since 213 is on fumes, but there's literally nothing in our favor to pull this off in the next few years. Al the "Get Derozen, CP3, Lowery, Kelly Olynik, etc." sounds worse than simple running it back imo. Me personally, I say run it back but replace the older role players with the youth. That would be my plan.

I agree- I think you are right on the money in terms of facing the reality of the situation.

I get the frustration of the fan base, but what is realistically possible vs what people want is very far apart. I think they need to roll with the current roster with upgrades of talent and youth in terms of secondary players as you mentioned. They can fully rebuild 3-4 years from now

Exactly to both your posts, and this is what I've been consistently trying to remind everyone of.

Does anyone actually want this same team back if there are better options ? No way, at least I don't, but there's a difference between what we want as fans and actual reality.

Many people seem to want to make decisions out of their frustration and based on emotions of being tired of the players and the team, but those knee jerk decisions don't make anything better, and many make things worse.

The Clippers currently have bad options and worse options. There's no honour in advocating for falling on the sword for a worse option just out of frustration and disappointment.

There's no good rebuild option when you don't control your draft picks. When you don't control your picks, your best assets are tradeable players, and you also gain no value from losing games, not even minimal value, it's fully useless. So you now have to balance not sucking and just giving other teams lottery picks with acquiring positive assets.

The ideal goal would be to get younger around the main guys, everyone knows this (as well as trade partners), problem is the difference between knowing it and actually doing it. The ideal goal would be to sign like 3 year contracts with 3rd year team option or non fully guaranteed in year 3 for Harden and George, making them nice tradeable assets for teams trying to compete.

Of course no one is going to give you solid young players for cheap. You have to give to get. You might have to get your young players with potential via the questionable guys / cast aways and play the hope game.

[og15]

I agree pretty much with everything, but the problem is that usually we'll have at least one card in our deck for a rebuild, if not two or three. Like a couple of first round picks that we fully control. I highly tradable player like Blake. A nice window of cap space. A guy that's 100% up next to break out and become "that guy", etc.

I get all that, but the reality is, we're screwed and have nothing but bad choices. To me, the worst of those bad choices would be to go over the second apron to keep all these guys when there's a very good chance we'll still end up gifting free lottery picks to OKC anyway.

This is precisely why I've been saying for years that the whole front office needs to be fired. 29 other teams would have fired these guys after last year when it was already evident how screwed we were and how clueless they are.

Me personally, I say run it back but replace the older role players with the youth. That would be my plan.

I don't see any way that happens. As long as the washed "stars" are still here, this team will continue to be in win-now mode whether they're capable of winning now or not, and that will always be the excuse to not develop young players.

I have no connection to any front office people, so I really don't care about any of them being there.

Regardless of those guys presence or not, the Clippers aren't in position to make any significant pivot this off-season. Anything that happens will just be a set up for possible (based on market, other teams interests, players desires, etc) future moves to put the team in better position.

Harden or no Harden, George or no George, both gone, none of it actually allows the team to do anything truly significant this off-season. There no significant cap space possible. Things like sign and trades are not necessarily straight forward and many far less possible than we might think.

In reality what happens after the off-season, and sure, I have no issue with someone saying they don't trust the front office who put the team in this position to fix the problem.

Of course the other factor is how much is it simply the front office making all these decisions and how much of it is Ballmer also putting pressure on them to go all in, be competitive, etc and make those kinds of moves. If the latter is also a factor, then the front office can only do so much and changing them doesn't necessarily do as much as we might hope.

Owner isn't going anywhere, soooo....

[MartinToVaught]

Of course the other factor is how much is it simply the front office making all these decisions and how much of it is Ballmer also putting pressure on them to go all in, be competitive, etc and make those kinds of moves. If the latter is also a factor, then the front office can only do so much and changing them doesn't necessarily do as much as we might hope.

Owner isn't going anywhere, soooo....

I'd still at least like to see what happens with a different front office first. It speaks volumes that the only team who's hired any of this current group away is the Wizards, who aren't known for making good decisions themselves. One would hope a front office who's actually capable of scouting prospects, navigating the new CBA, not getting fleeced in every single trade, etc. would also be competent enough to convince Ballmer that they're making the right moves.

I do think Ballmer is too much of a fanboy and doesn't hold anyone accountable, but it's probably not fair to place all the blame on him without seeing how he'd do with different voices in charge of the on-court product first. Frank & co. have had their chance and screwed it up in historic fashion.

[esqtvd]

LOL ZubacSZN @213clipset is one of the better posters on Twitter even when I don't agree with him

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[Ballings7]

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Like I said early, PG is probably gone this summer.

I think the FO is kind of like with PG:

"We want you back, but not to go that far.. we have our own interests in the next room no matter what, and we think we could roll the dice and do even better without you".

[Captain Ballmer]

One other aspect I don't think ever mentioned in PG13 talks is no trade clause. I think he demands that if he would expect any discount from Kawhi' number. Maybe this has bigger impact than number difference bc at the end we are the franchise traded Blake.

[Roscoe Sheed]

One other aspect I don't think ever mentioned in PG13 talks is no trade clause. I think he demands that if he would expect any discount from Kawhi' number. Maybe this has bigger impact than number difference bc at the end we are the franchise traded Blake.

Perhaps they will give it to him- I read that they can’t offer that to him until he reaches free agency

[KL2]

The closer we get the longer it’s taking.

Never thought about the no trade clause angle. Isn’t that as bad as giving him the max? We need the option of being able to move on from him.

[Roscoe Sheed]

The closer we get the longer it’s taking.

Never thought about the no trade clause angle. Isn’t that as bad as giving him the max? We need the option of being able to move on from him.

Doesn’t mean they can’t trade him- he might still agree to a trade if things aren’t working out here and he likes the destination. PG for 3 years is a decent deal, 4 years for the max isn’t

[esqtvd]

One other aspect I don't think ever mentioned in PG13 talks is no trade clause. I think he demands that if he would expect any discount from Kawhi' number. Maybe this has bigger impact than number difference bc at the end we are the franchise traded Blake.

I always thought that would come back to bite Ballmer. That was really shoddy what he did to Blake. The ink was barely dry on the contract when he sent him to NBA Siberia [Detroit].

You can stuff that "family" and "loyalty" garbage. Ballmer made it clear it's a business, no more no less.

[KL2]

I don’t blame PG if that’s what he’s really after but I hope the Clippers don’t give in. I don’t want to depend on a player agreeing to a trade to make it happen.

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[Clemenza]

I agree pretty much with everything, but the problem is that usually we'll have at least one card in our deck for a rebuild, if not two or three. Like a couple of first round picks that we fully control. I highly tradable player like Blake. A nice window of cap space. A guy that's 100% up next to break out and become "that guy", etc.

I get all that, but the reality is, we're screwed and have nothing but bad choices. To me, the worst of those bad choices would be to go over the second apron to keep all these guys when there's a very good chance we'll still end up gifting free lottery picks to OKC anyway.

This is precisely why I've been saying for years that the whole front office needs to be fired. 29 other teams would have fired these guys after last year when it was already evident how screwed we were and how clueless they are.

Me personally, I say run it back but replace the older role players with the youth. That would be my plan.

I don't see any way that happens. As long as the washed "stars" are still here, this team will continue to be in win-now mode whether they're capable of winning now or not, and that will always be the excuse to not develop young players.

You would first have to find out if this is Lawrence Frank with complete control or Steve "We're going to be hardcore!!" Ballmer pulling all the strings. If this is all Ballmer then a new GM & front office wouldn't change things at all.