Does it discredit records if their breaking was imminent

[bkkrh]

Here is why it is extremely unlikely that LeBron's record will be broken, as long as there are not significant changes related to minimum age to play in the league and scoring in the future.

1. Lebron was drafted right out of High School, this is currently not possible, overall only 41 players in NBA history came to the league straight out of High School. He is currently the 16th youngest player of all time considering the age of players during their first NBA game.
2. Lebron is the only player out of High School that immediately became the number 1 option on his team. Most high school players barely played during their first year/years. He scored 1654 points during his rookie year, Dwight Howard is in 2nd place with 981 points.
3. He never had any major injury or an unproductive season until now. From his 2nd season onwards he never averaged less than 25 points. During his first 15 seasons, he played 94% of all regular season games. Again, he is one of the youngest players of all time, so most players are at that point already retired or declining. He was 2nd in MVP voting in his 15th season, played 82 games for the first time in his career, had a career high in rebounds and assists and his best scoring average in 8 years. This is the point were he definitely deserves more credit, almost all of the other high school players were basically done in their early to mid 30ies. KG was still productive while playing less minutes, Kobe is the only other player that was at this point still playing a lot of minutes on the same level.
4. Even though he misses more games now, he is still scoring on the same level until now. Kareem and MJ averaged 23 points during the season they turned 39, for Kareem it was the last season he averaged more than 20 ppg, MJ averaged exactly 20 the season he turned 40. 39 year old Lebron just averaged 25.7 ppg and played the most regular season games in 6 seasons. If he averages more than 20 points next season, he will have the highest scoring average of all 18 year old and all 40 year old players.

There are really only 2 points why it doesn't seem impossible. He was never as focussed on scoring as f. e. MJ or Kobe, he could have averaged more points in most seasons if he would have focused less on playmaking. Additionally the years in Miami with DWade and Bosh definitely impacted his averages for that period.

Only way I see this record getting broken is if there will be in the future some MJ/LeBron/A. C. Green hybrid. So basically a player who has MJ's talent and mindset when it comes to scoring, LeBrons health and longevity and A. C. Green's iron man mindset.

[Bergmaniac]

HOWEVER, LeBron may just have played at the same time as two players that might break his records in scoring. Those players are Luka Doncic and Jayson Tatum respectively. As of today Luka has a higher career PPG than LeBron. All he needs is the longevity and he will break LeBron's record.

Yeah, all he needs to do is to equal the longetivity of the player with the most impressive longetivity in NBA history. No biggie.

[Saints14]

LeBron's career points record will likely be unbreakable unless the game breaks to the point where guys are averaging 50 per game like Wilt did. A 21 year career (and counting) is rare enough, but to be as healthy and consistent as LeBron was throughout those 21 years is IMO something we won't see replicated again ever

[og15]

LeBron currently has the most points of all time in the NBA. He broke a record set by Kareem which existed for many years. Kareem retired in 1989 and LeBron was drafted in 2003. In between that time, Jordan had his prime and it still wasn't enough to break Kareem's record.

When LeBron came into the league no one thought he could break Kareem's record. No one thought he would make it past 35. However LeBron has managed to do that and is now the all time point leader in both the regular season and the playoffs.

HOWEVER, LeBron may just have played at the same time as two players that might break his records in scoring. Those players are Luka Doncic and Jayson Tatum respectively. As of today Luka has a higher career PPG than LeBron. All he needs is the longevity and he will break LeBron's record. Tatum is also outpacing LeBron's rate because of his fortune to be drafted to the Celtics. Tatum was able to make the ECF early in his career and has consistently had deep playoff runs year over year.

The proximity of this leaves some questions about LeBron's true greatness. Is LeBron really the greatest of all time when it comes to scoring or did he happen to exist in an era where scoring was easier than it has ever been? Does LeBron really deserve the credit for breaking Kareem's record? It is a well advertised secret that scoring in the NBA is higher today than it was 10 years ago. A 20 ppg scorer is no longer an impressive thing. Actually every team has a 20 ppg scorer and most of them are not All Stars. Teams offensive rating is through the roof. LeBron obviously benefits from this. He is scoring at a rate never before seen from a late 30s player. Obviously some of this is LeBron's greatness, however how much of this is also inflation from the era? A lack of defense has been recognized in the modern NBA. The officiating leans towards offense, it's easier to score than ever because scoring drives viewers.

So does it discredit LeBron's greatness if he happened to have his records broken by players that competed against him? I would say it kind of does, it almost lends itself to the idea that LeBron is a product of his era rather than a product of transcending the game.

When Kareem came into the NBA, the league average was 99.4 FGA and 33.7 FTA and average ppg was 116.7 ppg without any three's. His last season, average ppg was 109 ppg with 89 FGA and 28.8 FTA.

Lebron has played zero seasons anywhere close to 99 FGA and 34 FTA, and his last 6 seasons are the only ones with 88+ FGA

The slowest paced season of Kareem's career was 99.6, his second last season, the rest of the years were 100+ and as high as 108 (possibly higher in his earliest seasons but we don't have the numbers).

You can argue this or that rule difference or whatever, but based on how the game was actually played, even including player minutes, Kareem played in a far more friendly time for scoring. This is not saying anything against Kareem, but the idea here was to try and suggest Lebron has had it friendly for getting more points stats than others.

[JonFromVA]

Nothing but a PED finding discredits LeBron. If someone else can have an even longer, more, productive career? Good.

[Charlie Sollers]

The mental gymnastics to find ways to discredit LeBron are hilarious.

[Yoshun]

In 21 seasons LeBron has only averaged less than 25ppg once, his rookie season when he averaged 20.9ppg.

That's absolutely insane.

Luka only has to keep this up for about 15 more seasons.

[BigGargamel]

LeBron could probably average 20 ppg for another five years if he wanted to. He could make this record completely unbreakable.

[homecourtloss]

You forgot to log in to your Heir_Jordan account.

[homecourtloss]

NBA average scoring over career/prime:

LBJ___MJ___KAJ__Luka
103.4 103.7 108.9 112.4
101.9 104.3 108.8 112.7

So if that holds Luka would have to score 4000 more points than LeBron to be as impressive, but he is currently about 4000 points behind age 25 LeBron.

[MavsDirk41]

Oh neat! A scoring record!

[naabzor]

You just need to calculate how many games or minutes took Lebron to break the record to just assess if he is the best offensive player of all time or it's just the most long-lived. Look it up.

[Best Bird Ever]

Different eras can't be compared.

IMHO the fact that people even somehow talk about scoring records right now is just stupid. Game is different entirely. Teams score like 150 points a game. Modern "scoring titles"aren't worth a penny.

[dans1230]

HOWEVER, LeBron may just have played at the same time as two players that might break his records in scoring. Those players are Luka Doncic and Jayson Tatum respectively. As of today Luka has a higher career PPG than LeBron. All he needs is the longevity and he will break LeBron's record.

Yeah, all he needs to do is to equal the longetivity of the player with the most impressive longetivity in NBA history. No biggie.

Thats the impressive part. Lebron has led the league in scoring 1 time in his career, plenty of guys have led the league in scoring. What Lebron does that will never be duplicated is average 26ppg at age 39 in his 21st season. For comparison, Kareem averaged 17 at age 39 which in itself is impressive, and in his 20th and final season averaged 10.
Kareem also played less than 74 games in a season 1 time, he played 62 that year. With all the games he played, 1560 in his career, he now sits 2nd all time in scoring, and by the end of Lebrons career, significantly behind.

[TheNG]

Kareem had four years of college. He'd likely still be about 5,000 points ahead of Lebron if he'd entered the NBA as a freshman, and he was certainly pro-ready then. Jordan's three years of college were important for his development, but it's easy to see how coming in as a 19-year-old and not retiring a couple of times, he could be 10,000 or more points ahead--basically six or seven more seasons. Timing and injury luck/skill are important, but this is primarily a longevity stat.

Ultimately, numbers are facts and not subject to opinion.

This.
Any person who doesn't relate to the missing "college" part in LeBron's career vs KAJ doesn't know anything about numbers.
Any person who tries to speak about "total points" including Playoffs doesn't know anything about statistics.
Any person who speak in terms of "seasons" and not in terms of age doesn't know anything about physiology.

[Jadoogar]

i think the whole premise of this thread is stupid AND i also don't think it's inevitable that Luka or Tatum break Lebron's record. Lebron had an incredibly long career and was incredibly healthy.

Let's say Luka continues to average 33ppg, he would need to play 12.5 more seasons averaging 70 games/season to break Lebron's record. For Tatum, it would be over 15 more seasons (using 27ppg that he averaged last year). I wouldn't say either of these things is likely.

[SeattleJazzFan]

LeBron currently has the most points of all time in the NBA. He broke a record set by Kareem which existed for many years. Kareem retired in 1989 and LeBron was drafted in 2003. In between that time, Jordan had his prime and it still wasn't enough to break Kareem's record.

When LeBron came into the league no one thought he could break Kareem's record. No one thought he would make it past 35. However LeBron has managed to do that and is now the all time point leader in both the regular season and the playoffs.

HOWEVER, LeBron may just have played at the same time as two players that might break his records in scoring. Those players are Luka Doncic and Jayson Tatum respectively. As of today Luka has a higher career PPG than LeBron. All he needs is the longevity and he will break LeBron's record. Tatum is also outpacing LeBron's rate because of his fortune to be drafted to the Celtics. Tatum was able to make the ECF early in his career and has consistently had deep playoff runs year over year.

The proximity of this leaves some questions about LeBron's true greatness. Is LeBron really the greatest of all time when it comes to scoring or did he happen to exist in an era where scoring was easier than it has ever been? Does LeBron really deserve the credit for breaking Kareem's record? It is a well advertised secret that scoring in the NBA is higher today than it was 10 years ago. A 20 ppg scorer is no longer an impressive thing. Actually every team has a 20 ppg scorer and most of them are not All Stars. Teams offensive rating is through the roof. LeBron obviously benefits from this. He is scoring at a rate never before seen from a late 30s player. Obviously some of this is LeBron's greatness, however how much of this is also inflation from the era? A lack of defense has been recognized in the modern NBA. The officiating leans towards offense, it's easier to score than ever because scoring drives viewers.

So does it discredit LeBron's greatness if he happened to have his records broken by players that competed against him? I would say it kind of does, it almost lends itself to the idea that LeBron is a product of his era rather than a product of transcending the game.

the flaw in your argument as it relates specifically to lebron is that he played a huge chunk of his career in one of the LOWEST scoring eras in NBA history. you argument works for doncic and tatum, but not for lebron. they are not his contemporaries - they get the benefit of playing their careers in the highest scoring and highest pace eras, but lebron didn't have that same benefit. this pace and scoring explosion didn't happen until lebron had been in the league for 12-14 years - he was already old before scoring became as you say "easier than it has ever been".

[Godymas]

LeBron currently has the most points of all time in the NBA. He broke a record set by Kareem which existed for many years. Kareem retired in 1989 and LeBron was drafted in 2003. In between that time, Jordan had his prime and it still wasn't enough to break Kareem's record.

When LeBron came into the league no one thought he could break Kareem's record. No one thought he would make it past 35. However LeBron has managed to do that and is now the all time point leader in both the regular season and the playoffs.

HOWEVER, LeBron may just have played at the same time as two players that might break his records in scoring. Those players are Luka Doncic and Jayson Tatum respectively. As of today Luka has a higher career PPG than LeBron. All he needs is the longevity and he will break LeBron's record. Tatum is also outpacing LeBron's rate because of his fortune to be drafted to the Celtics. Tatum was able to make the ECF early in his career and has consistently had deep playoff runs year over year.

The proximity of this leaves some questions about LeBron's true greatness. Is LeBron really the greatest of all time when it comes to scoring or did he happen to exist in an era where scoring was easier than it has ever been? Does LeBron really deserve the credit for breaking Kareem's record? It is a well advertised secret that scoring in the NBA is higher today than it was 10 years ago. A 20 ppg scorer is no longer an impressive thing. Actually every team has a 20 ppg scorer and most of them are not All Stars. Teams offensive rating is through the roof. LeBron obviously benefits from this. He is scoring at a rate never before seen from a late 30s player. Obviously some of this is LeBron's greatness, however how much of this is also inflation from the era? A lack of defense has been recognized in the modern NBA. The officiating leans towards offense, it's easier to score than ever because scoring drives viewers.

So does it discredit LeBron's greatness if he happened to have his records broken by players that competed against him? I would say it kind of does, it almost lends itself to the idea that LeBron is a product of his era rather than a product of transcending the game.

the flaw in your argument as it relates specifically to lebron is that he played a huge chunk of his career in one of the LOWEST scoring eras in NBA history. you argument works for doncic and tatum, but not for lebron. they are not his contemporaries - they get the benefit of playing their careers in the highest scoring and highest pace eras, but lebron didn't have that same benefit. this pace and scoring explosion didn't happen until lebron had been in the league for 12-14 years - he was already old before scoring became as you say "easier than it has ever been".

and yet you’ve failed to address the argument that LeBron’s longevity in scoring and less of a fall off from his early years is because the league made it easier for him to maintain his scoring therefore allowing him to be able to even have the record. Is there any guarantee that if the scoring was consistent that LeBron could be doing 25 ppg at his age.

Like what LeBron did in a harder era was impressive, but then if that harder scoring era stayed maybe as LeBron hits 35 his numbers dip even more.

[Homer38]

LeBron currently has the most points of all time in the NBA. He broke a record set by Kareem which existed for many years. Kareem retired in 1989 and LeBron was drafted in 2003. In between that time, Jordan had his prime and it still wasn't enough to break Kareem's record.

When LeBron came into the league no one thought he could break Kareem's record. No one thought he would make it past 35. However LeBron has managed to do that and is now the all time point leader in both the regular season and the playoffs.

HOWEVER, LeBron may just have played at the same time as two players that might break his records in scoring. Those players are Luka Doncic and Jayson Tatum respectively. As of today Luka has a higher career PPG than LeBron. All he needs is the longevity and he will break LeBron's record. Tatum is also outpacing LeBron's rate because of his fortune to be drafted to the Celtics. Tatum was able to make the ECF early in his career and has consistently had deep playoff runs year over year.

The proximity of this leaves some questions about LeBron's true greatness. Is LeBron really the greatest of all time when it comes to scoring or did he happen to exist in an era where scoring was easier than it has ever been? Does LeBron really deserve the credit for breaking Kareem's record? It is a well advertised secret that scoring in the NBA is higher today than it was 10 years ago. A 20 ppg scorer is no longer an impressive thing. Actually every team has a 20 ppg scorer and most of them are not All Stars. Teams offensive rating is through the roof. LeBron obviously benefits from this. He is scoring at a rate never before seen from a late 30s player. Obviously some of this is LeBron's greatness, however how much of this is also inflation from the era? A lack of defense has been recognized in the modern NBA. The officiating leans towards offense, it's easier to score than ever because scoring drives viewers.

So does it discredit LeBron's greatness if he happened to have his records broken by players that competed against him? I would say it kind of does, it almost lends itself to the idea that LeBron is a product of his era rather than a product of transcending the game.

the flaw in your argument as it relates specifically to lebron is that he played a huge chunk of his career in one of the LOWEST scoring eras in NBA history. you argument works for doncic and tatum, but not for lebron. they are not his contemporaries - they get the benefit of playing their careers in the highest scoring and highest pace eras, but lebron didn't have that same benefit. this pace and scoring explosion didn't happen until lebron had been in the league for 12-14 years - he was already old before scoring became as you say "easier than it has ever been".

and yet you’ve failed to address the argument that LeBron’s longevity in scoring and less of a fall off from his early years is because the league made it easier for him to maintain his scoring therefore allowing him to be able to even have the record. Is there any guarantee that if the scoring was consistent that LeBron could be doing 25 ppg at his age.

Like what LeBron did in a harder era was impressive, but then if that harder scoring era stayed maybe as LeBron hits 35 his numbers dip even more.

Look at the post 12 of this thread...Career wise the league average is still much less that Kareem.....

[nikster]

LeBron currently has the most points of all time in the NBA. He broke a record set by Kareem which existed for many years. Kareem retired in 1989 and LeBron was drafted in 2003. In between that time, Jordan had his prime and it still wasn't enough to break Kareem's record.

When LeBron came into the league no one thought he could break Kareem's record. No one thought he would make it past 35. However LeBron has managed to do that and is now the all time point leader in both the regular season and the playoffs.

HOWEVER, LeBron may just have played at the same time as two players that might break his records in scoring. Those players are Luka Doncic and Jayson Tatum respectively. As of today Luka has a higher career PPG than LeBron. All he needs is the longevity and he will break LeBron's record. Tatum is also outpacing LeBron's rate because of his fortune to be drafted to the Celtics. Tatum was able to make the ECF early in his career and has consistently had deep playoff runs year over year.

The proximity of this leaves some questions about LeBron's true greatness. Is LeBron really the greatest of all time when it comes to scoring or did he happen to exist in an era where scoring was easier than it has ever been? Does LeBron really deserve the credit for breaking Kareem's record? It is a well advertised secret that scoring in the NBA is higher today than it was 10 years ago. A 20 ppg scorer is no longer an impressive thing. Actually every team has a 20 ppg scorer and most of them are not All Stars. Teams offensive rating is through the roof. LeBron obviously benefits from this. He is scoring at a rate never before seen from a late 30s player. Obviously some of this is LeBron's greatness, however how much of this is also inflation from the era? A lack of defense has been recognized in the modern NBA. The officiating leans towards offense, it's easier to score than ever because scoring drives viewers.

So does it discredit LeBron's greatness if he happened to have his records broken by players that competed against him? I would say it kind of does, it almost lends itself to the idea that LeBron is a product of his era rather than a product of transcending the game.

the flaw in your argument as it relates specifically to lebron is that he played a huge chunk of his career in one of the LOWEST scoring eras in NBA history. you argument works for doncic and tatum, but not for lebron. they are not his contemporaries - they get the benefit of playing their careers in the highest scoring and highest pace eras, but lebron didn't have that same benefit. this pace and scoring explosion didn't happen until lebron had been in the league for 12-14 years - he was already old before scoring became as you say "easier than it has ever been".

and yet you’ve failed to address the argument that LeBron’s longevity in scoring and less of a fall off from his early years is because the league made it easier for him to maintain his scoring therefore allowing him to be able to even have the record. Is there any guarantee that if the scoring was consistent that LeBron could be doing 25 ppg at his age.

Like what LeBron did in a harder era was impressive, but then if that harder scoring era stayed maybe as LeBron hits 35 his numbers dip even more.

And your ignoring how easy it was in the 70s and 80s. Even including these last years when hes past his prime, league wide scoring was actually higher during MJ and Kareems time. So why's should we penalize LeBron for having it easier at the end of his career rather than the beginning, other than recency bias?