Trades and Transactions thread cont - we still need a center

[BKlutch]

Take this with a grain of salt...CP from KnicksFanTV says knicks still want KAT. Don't shoot the messenger...just was listening to his live stream while working and he seemed pretty adamant...more adamant then I have ever heard him.

Says the knicks wont risk losing Randle for nothing especially since they are offering Brunson an extension...and Randle is extension eligible this year as well. Big tell if they don't offer him an extension.

Obviously Randle + Mitch pretty much work financially...but I don't know how to feel. Offensively the floor would be spaced like crazy and you could have death lineups like Brunson/DD/Mikal/OG/KAT...that would basically be what BOS can put out there on a nightly basis in terms of 5 elite shooters.

Just something to keep an eye on...but gain of salt obviously.

CP doesn't really spread false stuff like this, so I think it's somewhat legit. I'm sure there are some people in the organization that still want KAT. Doesn't necessarily mean it's a universally desired and the Knicks are sure as hell aren't blowing up their frontcourt for KAT. I don't see it happening.

Did CP or anyone else even look to see if KAT's humonguos salary would fit with our team and re-signing players we need to keep?

[DOT]

you can add them up

Kelly Olynyk gave up 27 pts in 6 matchup minutes 71% from the field
Vanderbilt gave up 10 pts in 2 mins 75% from the field
Lauri gave up 10 pts in 2 mins 67% from the field

then you probably have miscellaneous guys and free throws ect....

You could do that, or you could just subtract Walker's numbers from the overall numbers to just get a general "this is what he scored against everybody else combined"

I guess that was too difficult of a concept to grasp though.

I guess he's trying to say that all embiid stats aren't there so he thinks more pts were potentially scored on Kessler then it shows but I'm not going to go into every guy. There are guards that get matchup minutes due to switches or fouls ect...

It's subjective too, like if Embiid gets a wide open dunk, whose fault was it?

I don't know, and the annoying part is it doesn't have a team function to sort the data, so I'd have to manually go through every single Jazz player to see if it adds up, but I assume it's a 1 on 1 thing, where only points scored where there's a clear primary defender are counted. But again, I don't know how they do it

But you can't say that in an argument against an idiot, cause he'll just go "so you DON'T know, ha ha I win"

Cap had some parable about a zebra and an ass, where the zebra is told to just let the ass be wrong because it's not worth the time to argue with him, and that applies here. Same thing as you can't argue with an idiot cause they'll just bring you down to their level and beat you with experience, or can't wrestle with a pig cause you'll both end up covered in sh*t, but the pig'll like it.

[mpharris36]

Take this with a grain of salt...CP from KnicksFanTV says knicks still want KAT. Don't shoot the messenger...just was listening to his live stream while working and he seemed pretty adamant...more adamant then I have ever heard him.

Says the knicks wont risk losing Randle for nothing especially since they are offering Brunson an extension...and Randle is extension eligible this year as well. Big tell if they don't offer him an extension.

Obviously Randle + Mitch pretty much work financially...but I don't know how to feel. Offensively the floor would be spaced like crazy and you could have death lineups like Brunson/DD/Mikal/OG/KAT...that would basically be what BOS can put out there on a nightly basis in terms of 5 elite shooters.

Just something to keep an eye on...but gain of salt obviously.

CP doesn't really spread false stuff like this, so I think it's somewhat legit. I'm sure there are some people in the organization that still want KAT. Doesn't necessarily mean it's a universally desired and the Knicks are sure as hell aren't blowing up their frontcourt for KAT. I don't see it happening.

I agree I just found it interesting...and I'm not the biggest KAT guy. But one thing is true with extension talks coming up I don't think the Knicks have any interest in losing Randle for nothing....and S&T's are very difficult under the new CBA...and the Knicks don't want to lose his skill or salary for nothing.

[mpharris36]

I mean the connections are still there...KAT is CAA and was repped by Leon Rose...WWW has the Kentucky connections.

I'm not even saying this would be a good move but KAT has to have some fans in that FO.

[Ghetto Gospel]

You could do that, or you could just subtract Walker's numbers from the overall numbers to just get a general "this is what he scored against everybody else combined"

I guess that was too difficult of a concept to grasp though.

I guess he's trying to say that all embiid stats aren't there so he thinks more pts were potentially scored on Kessler then it shows but I'm not going to go into every guy. There are guards that get matchup minutes due to switches or fouls ect...

It's subjective too, like if Embiid gets a wide open dunk, whose fault was it?

I don't know, and the annoying part is it doesn't have a team function to sort the data, so I'd have to manually go through every single Jazz player to see if it adds up, but I assume it's a 1 on 1 thing, where only points scored where there's a clear primary defender are counted. But again, I don't know how they do it

But you can't say that in an argument against an idiot, cause he'll just go "so you DON'T know, ha ha I win"

Cap had some parable about a zebra and an ass, where the zebra is told to just let the ass be wrong because it's not worth the time to argue with him, and that applies here. Same thing as you can't argue with an idiot cause they'll just bring you down to their level and beat you with experience, or can't wrestle with a pig cause you'll both end up covered in sh*t, but the pig'll like it.

i guess you realized your matchup stat is missing data and the whole addition and subtraction thing didn't work so now you're deflecting with parables since you're so clearly wrong. have a nice day

[mpharris36]

You could do that, or you could just subtract Walker's numbers from the overall numbers to just get a general "this is what he scored against everybody else combined"

I guess that was too difficult of a concept to grasp though.

I guess he's trying to say that all embiid stats aren't there so he thinks more pts were potentially scored on Kessler then it shows but I'm not going to go into every guy. There are guards that get matchup minutes due to switches or fouls ect...

It's subjective too, like if Embiid gets a wide open dunk, whose fault was it?

I don't know, and the annoying part is it doesn't have a team function to sort the data, so I'd have to manually go through every single Jazz player to see if it adds up, but I assume it's a 1 on 1 thing, where only points scored where there's a clear primary defender are counted. But again, I don't know how they do it

But you can't say that in an argument against an idiot, cause he'll just go "so you DON'T know, ha ha I win"

Cap had some parable about a zebra and an ass, where the zebra is told to just let the ass be wrong because it's not worth the time to argue with him, and that applies here. Same thing as you can't argue with an idiot cause they'll just bring you down to their level and beat you with experience, or can't wrestle with a pig cause you'll both end up covered in sh*t, but the pig'll like it.

Yes, really needs a team filter for sure.

I would also assume its a 1 for 1 thing as well...no reason to not believe that. And like you said the only thing in question is a wide open fast break or a missed rotation in the p&R for a wide open dunk...I just assume the closest defender gets charged with the pts. I don't think you can't assign a basket to no one

[GONYK]

Take this with a grain of salt...CP from KnicksFanTV says knicks still want KAT. Don't shoot the messenger...just was listening to his live stream while working and he seemed pretty adamant...more adamant then I have ever heard him.

Says the knicks wont risk losing Randle for nothing especially since they are offering Brunson an extension...and Randle is extension eligible this year as well. Big tell if they don't offer him an extension.

Obviously Randle + Mitch pretty much work financially...but I don't know how to feel. Offensively the floor would be spaced like crazy and you could have death lineups like Brunson/DD/Mikal/OG/KAT...that would basically be what BOS can put out there on a nightly basis in terms of 5 elite shooters.

Just something to keep an eye on...but gain of salt obviously.

The Knicks are 100% going to offer Randle an extension, IMO. Whether they want to trade him or not.

The question is whether or not it will be a MAX extension.

I agree but what if he doesn't accept it...or if they already know he wont accept it.

If he doesn't accept it, that is a different issue. The Knicks will inevitably take calls on him and probably settle for less. I don't think they let him hit UFA.

But Randle has to know that too. Who is going to pay him KAT money?

[robillionaire]

I mean the connections are still there...KAT is CAA and was repped by Leon Rose...WWW has the Kentucky connections.

I'm not even saying this would be a good move but KAT has to have some fans in that FO.

Played for Thibs before too

[mpharris36]

free throws are accounted for in the matchup stats

yes but you get odd matchups with very little matchup minutes...like Malik Beasley was defending him and gave up 7 pts in less than 1 minute

Jordan Clarkson gave up 3 pts

Rudy Gay gave up 6 pts in 30 seconds.

It adds up man. They don't account for pts and don't assign it to the boogeyman...

please just attempt to add it, it doesn't.

if you did just post it. I just went through the players I know were on the Jazz that year. If you have the info why so coy about it?

[TrueWarrior]

It’s funny what some of you guys are arguing. Nitpicking matchup stats between a 21 year old rookie Kessler against a 29 year old MVP, and it still shows he defended him the best on his team.

If Kessler was a star already he wouldn’t even be available. He’s at the perfect level for us to trade for with our remaining assets. He is a better fit here than on the Jazz, and can probably replace Mitch as the starter in 1-2 years, if not sooner.

What other center do you see “shaking loose” who would fit our system, timeline, cap, etc over the next year or two? We cant wait around forever. Our window is open now. Things have changed. It’s go time. We cannot count on Mitch being healthy in June.

[DOT]

I guess he's trying to say that all embiid stats aren't there so he thinks more pts were potentially scored on Kessler then it shows but I'm not going to go into every guy. There are guards that get matchup minutes due to switches or fouls ect...

It's subjective too, like if Embiid gets a wide open dunk, whose fault was it?

I don't know, and the annoying part is it doesn't have a team function to sort the data, so I'd have to manually go through every single Jazz player to see if it adds up, but I assume it's a 1 on 1 thing, where only points scored where there's a clear primary defender are counted. But again, I don't know how they do it

But you can't say that in an argument against an idiot, cause he'll just go "so you DON'T know, ha ha I win"

Cap had some parable about a zebra and an ass, where the zebra is told to just let the ass be wrong because it's not worth the time to argue with him, and that applies here. Same thing as you can't argue with an idiot cause they'll just bring you down to their level and beat you with experience, or can't wrestle with a pig cause you'll both end up covered in sh*t, but the pig'll like it.

Yes, really needs a team filter for sure.

I would also assume its a 1 for 1 thing as well...no reason to not believe that. And like you said the only thing in question is a wide open fast break or a missed rotation in the p&R for a wide open dunk...I just assume the closest defender gets charged with the pts. I don't think you can't assign a basket to no one

That is what I think it is, it's whoever the closest defender is, meaning it's not entirely accurate. Plus you notice Embiid only got to the line 3 times against Kessler, did he get by him and get fouled by someone else (cause he took like 30 FTs)? I would assume they charge the FTs to whoever fouls him, but again, I don't know for sure

What I can say is, it's all entirely stupid because we're talking about 2 games from 2 years ago. And remember, Gospel is the one who brought them up because "Embiid score 90 on Jazz, Kessler bad defense" which is always a dumb argument and significantly more stupid than using actual matchup stats, flawed as they are.

[mpharris36]

I mean the connections are still there...KAT is CAA and was repped by Leon Rose...WWW has the Kentucky connections.

I'm not even saying this would be a good move but KAT has to have some fans in that FO.

Played for Thibs before too

that could be a plus or minus

[Ghetto Gospel]

yes but you get odd matchups with very little matchup minutes...like Malik Beasley was defending him and gave up 7 pts in less than 1 minute

Jordan Clarkson gave up 3 pts

Rudy Gay gave up 6 pts in 30 seconds.

It adds up man. They don't account for pts and don't assign it to the boogeyman...

please just attempt to add it, it doesn't.

if you did just post it. I just went through the players I know were on the Jazz that year. If you have the info why so coy about it?

i didn't for joel embiid against the jazz specifically.

i had this debate with someone a long time ago, i don't remember who, when matchup stats was brought up for i think... rj several years back. the easiest way to check is to go look at the playoff matchup data. for example, if a certain player scores 100 points in a singular playoff series, it's really easy to check especially if they get eliminated in the first round. you'll find that sometimes 120 points can get attributed, and sometimes 80 points get attributed under the matchup data. it's kinda weird.

i can see the reasoning for 120 points if there's double teams or maybe during a pnr, it gets attributed to both? i'm not sure. but sometimes less points get attributed and i don't really know where those go

[mpharris36]

It’s funny what some of you guys are arguing. Nitpicking matchup stats between a 21 year old rookie Kessler against a 29 year old MVP, and it still shows he defended him the best on his team.

If Kessler was a star already he wouldn’t even be available. He’s at the perfect level for us to trade for with our remaining assets. He is a better fit here than on the Jazz, and can probably replace Mitch as the starter in 1-2 years, if not sooner.

What other center do you see “shaking loose” who would fit our system, timeline, cap, etc over the next year or two? We cant wait around forever. Our window is open now. Things have changed. It’s go time. We cannot count on Mitch being healthy in June.

Yeah I'm really have a problem deciphering the con against Kessler. Ok if you say the price is too rich that is one thing. But to say he's bad or mid or whatever. We need him to be a backup center and mitch insurance. In terms of the reported available guys that actually fit on a low salary he is the best of the bunch.

Like you said the Jazz **** with him last year and he wasn't happy about it and they were moving towards a 5 out offense and tanking. So after his first year like you mentioned before they would have laughed at a duece + protected picks type package. His value has shifted and that is the only reason we May even have a shot to acquire him.

We are at a point our needs matter more. Just look at our roster balance...we can sustain a injury to a perimeter player and be ok...we can't survive currently a Mitch injury...and the FO knows it that is why they are looking at all cheap bigs on the market right now.

[thebuzzardman]

Take this with a grain of salt...CP from KnicksFanTV says knicks still want KAT. Don't shoot the messenger...just was listening to his live stream while working and he seemed pretty adamant...more adamant then I have ever heard him.

Says the knicks wont risk losing Randle for nothing especially since they are offering Brunson an extension...and Randle is extension eligible this year as well. Big tell if they don't offer him an extension.

Obviously Randle + Mitch pretty much work financially...but I don't know how to feel. Offensively the floor would be spaced like crazy and you could have death lineups like Brunson/DD/Mikal/OG/KAT...that would basically be what BOS can put out there on a nightly basis in terms of 5 elite shooters.

Just something to keep an eye on...but gain of salt obviously.

CP doesn't really spread false stuff like this, so I think it's somewhat legit. I'm sure there are some people in the organization that still want KAT. Doesn't necessarily mean it's a universally desired and the Knicks are sure as hell aren't blowing up their frontcourt for KAT. I don't see it happening.

Minnesota gave up a lot of picks etc to get Gogurt.
I get they might look at Gogurt, Edward's, McDaniel and Reid? As the core they would like to build around and KAT as the too expensive to be worth it, kills future flexibility.....but this is a massive stretch. Even if true, KAT would cost picks the Knicks don't have ,especially since you'd think minny wants to backfill picks from the Gogurt trade. Not that KAT wouldn't cost a few picks in a vacuum as well.
Knicks for clicks

[GONYK]

I mean the connections are still there...KAT is CAA and was repped by Leon Rose...WWW has the Kentucky connections.

I'm not even saying this would be a good move but KAT has to have some fans in that FO.

Played for Thibs before too

that could be a plus or minus

I don't think that marriage ended with a fondness for each other

[3toheadmelo]

Read on Twitter

Spoiler:

[Guano]

Read on Twitter

Spoiler:

These people are sick.

Going to war over kessler is crazy behavior.

[JayTWill]

It's entirely fair to question the organization's asset management over the last year. This time last year we had just sold low on Obi after devaluing him behind Randle for years. If someone told us at the same time last summer that we would turn Fournier, Grimes, 4 future unprotected firsts, 1 lightly protected first, 3 seconds and 1 pick swap into Mikal and KBD while also losing iHart this entire board would have lost their minds.

iHart has nothing to do with anything. He agreed to a deal that was a bet on himself. He won the bet because OKC had the money to spend. That's not poor asset management.

I hate the 2031 pick in the Mikal deal but, that's about it.

ObI is a bench player. No one is thinking about him or Grimes.

The team has gone from 21 wins to 50 wins. They made mistakes along the way but, here we are with a title contender for the first time in a very long time. We should be competing at the top of the league for several more years. So, being able to question the teams asset management is fine but, credit is due for where they took this team in a few short years. No GM has been able to do anything like this without destroying the future in over two decades.

I'm not saying everything they have done is bad. They have done some good and some bad. Picking up Brunson was a game changer. I give them credit for that but if Dallas had retained Brunson i'm not sure exactly how things would have played out.

It's just interesting watching how many Mikal trades were proposed on this board in the last year that gave up less assets and how strongly they were shot down by many other posters probably including yourself to basically only seeing one guy strongly questioning this trade. I still remain optimistic for the team as a fan but I can still see how things could have been handled better.

[thebuzzardman]

KAT vs DOT in this topic right now