NBA Over/Under Wins 24/25 (Raps 32.5)

[Scase]

Ask a Detroit fan about this obsession with ping pong balls. It as better to be Atlanta than Detroit.

Go ask a statistician to explain probabilities to you.

You should take your own advice to heart.
The probability to be successful with a high pick arent as good as you might believe.

For example the top 3 picks:

In the last 20 years teams who actually won the chip with a top 3 pick as their Lead guy werent that many. Most of those picks changed teams to win. For example: LeBron, Ad, Dwight (won as a roleplayer), Bogut (won as a roleplayer), KD, Al Horford (as a Roleplayer). The list of those that failed is much longer. You can always go top 6 pick or 8 it wont change much more. In Essence, tanking a season or multiple ones for the rather slim chance of getting a great player is not worth trying. I am not talking about end of season tanking like dallas did. We are talking about Pistons or others level of stupid tanking, which you are advocating for.


Nuggets, Bucks and Raptors won their chips with players they drafted after #10 and traded for the others. Warriors pick was #8 with curry. Lakers have signed through Free agency or trades their top players to win. Boston is the only team to win in the last 8 years with a top 3 pick they drafted themselves. Before that it was cleveland where LeBron had to come back cause Irving was not able to alone, which is a unique situation in itself.

My Point is:

Teams that develop a winning culture and develop their players, those are the ones winning the chip. They can draft and develop good players no matter the position in the Draft. The ones tanking, fail always and their players usually leave or their teams never get to the promised land.


Thats why i always will be against Tanking cause it only kills every chance you have of winning.

Cool, and the Celtics just won the chip with 2 3rd OA picks. And the Mavs made the finals with a 3rd OA and a 1st OA pick. And no, I am not, nor have I ever advocated for "Pistons or others level of stupid tanking". I have repeatedly called for a hard tank for a year or two, that's it.

You've just got your panties in a bunch because people want to trade Jak, and that would destroy your psyche. A I'm not calling for making literally any other changes other than moving him. So hows about ya stop just making crap up to support your made up argument?

Lastly I never said anything about a top 3 or bust situation, the upcoming draft is looking to be very top heavy, at least in the top 5. But you keep up those bad faith arguments, I hope they make you feel good!

[Clutch0z24]

Ask a Detroit fan about this obsession with ping pong balls. It as better to be Atlanta than Detroit.

Go ask a statistician to explain probabilities to you.

You should take your own advice to heart.
The probability to be successful with a high pick arent as good as you might believe.

For example the top 3 picks:

In the last 20 years teams who actually won the chip with a top 3 pick as their Lead guy werent that many. Most of those picks changed teams to win. For example: LeBron, Ad, Dwight (won as a roleplayer), Bogut (won as a roleplayer), KD, Al Horford (as a Roleplayer). The list of those that failed is much longer. You can always go top 6 pick or 8 it wont change much more. In Essence, tanking a season or multiple ones for the rather slim chance of getting a great player is not worth trying. I am not talking about end of season tanking like dallas did. We are talking about Pistons or others level of stupid tanking, which you are advocating for.


Nuggets, Bucks and Raptors won their chips with players they drafted after #10 and traded for the others. Warriors pick was #8 with curry. Lakers have signed through Free agency or trades their top players to win. Boston is the only team to win in the last 8 years with a top 3 pick they drafted themselves. Before that it was cleveland where LeBron had to come back cause Irving was not able to alone, which is a unique situation in itself.

My Point is:

Teams that develop a winning culture and develop their players, those are the ones winning the chip. They can draft and develop good players no matter the position in the Draft. The ones tanking, fail always and their players usually leave or their teams never get to the promised land.


Thats why i always will be against Tanking cause it only kills every chance you have of winning.

When you are the Toronto Raptors and do not get handed Superstars on a silver platter the draft is the only way you have of bringing in any sort of talent into the club....Im not talking the Gradey Dicks/Jakobe Walters/2nd round guys who will need to try and stay in the league....Im saying the top end players in the league today...

Yeah you can find your Jokics/Giannis types if you get lucky but the odds drastically go down historcially in the draft ....History shows the higher you pick the better the player you draft....

All the teams that became Dynasties did it through the draft in the past....

Lakers-Magic #1 pick -Went on to create a dynasty with the Lakers (Lakers were also a destination at that time so players like Kareem wanted to be there)
Celtics-Bird/#6th Pick McHale#3 pick-Went on to create a dynasty with the Celtics
Bulls-Jordan #3 pick Pippen #5 pick-Went on to create a dynasty with the Bulls
Spurs-Duncan #1 pick Went on to create a dynasty with the Spurs
Lakers-#13th pick Kobe (Also got Shaq because again its LA a destination in the NBA so they get handed stars)-Went onto create a dynasty with the Lakers
Warriors-Curry #7 pick Klay #11th pick Went onto create a dynasty with the Warriors
Celtics-Tatum #3 pick Brown #3 pick-Just won the title with the Celtics

...Do you see the pattern here? All teams that became the dynasties of the past all have something in common...Their "Stars" That lead them to where they got too were top end draft picks...Sure the 2ndary player added like Kobe to Shaq, And Klay to Curry were found a little later in the lottery but both teams already had their number 1s in place at the time.....Also all drafts are not equal ....The draft we just seen in 2024 is not equal to the 2025 or 2026 classes...about 7 players in the 2025 class would be the #1 pick in the 2024 class...

As the Raptors we do not have the trade assets currently to net us a Kawhi level superstar and the trend anyways with superstars that demand out now end up at the destination they demand to be....Which also hurts our chances of trading for a star player...

Bridges wanted NYK guess what he got traded there....Anywhere Harden wanted to be dealt ...He ended up getting traded there...
Siakam wanted Pacers....Hes a Pacer right now....KD Wanted Suns...Hes a Sun rn...These players now hold power in trade destinations so that hurts our chances more...

We are not going to be able to trade Gradey/Brown/Yak for a superstar level player for example....The trade chips are lacking...

So yeah its the best way for us ...To play the draft just like how we got Barnes and hope we do that again...

[dagger]

Cool, and the Celtics just won the chip with 2 3rd OA picks. And the Mavs made the finals with a 3rd OA and a 1st OA pick. And no, I am not, nor have I ever advocated for "Pistons or others level of stupid tanking". I have repeatedly called for a hard tank for a year or two, that's it.

Except they didn't tank to get Tatum and Brown. In the 2016-17 season, they had the best record in the East, but had third overall pick in the 2017 draft because of one of the all-time dumbest NBA trades. Both Brown and Tatum came from picks acquired from the Nets for Pierce/Garnett

[Clutch0z24]

Cool, and the Celtics just won the chip with 2 3rd OA picks. And the Mavs made the finals with a 3rd OA and a 1st OA pick. And no, I am not, nor have I ever advocated for "Pistons or others level of stupid tanking". I have repeatedly called for a hard tank for a year or two, that's it.

Except they didn't tank to get Tatum and Brown. In the 2016-17 season, they had the best record in the East, but had third overall pick in the 2017 draft because of one of the all-time dumbest NBA trades. Both Brown and Tatum came from picks acquired from the Nets for Pierce/Garnett

It doesn't matter how they aquired the players at back to back 3rd picks its the fact that they won the title with...Drafting high...

Do we have any picks that could end up being top 3 picks in the future besides our own? We have a Pacers pick...Which its not like that Nets team where half the players they had retired....Pacers are young and are going to be good for a while here...

We do not have trade assets to fleece a team into giving us a pick that will end up top 3....Let alone 2....

Idc how they got Tatum/Brown they still got them with HIGH picks...Not late lotto, Not 15-20 ....To get this kind of talent you need high end draft picks...Any dynasty you look at in the past was built through the draft...The draft has worked for many teams...All of the teams that are known as dynasties in the past used the draft by getting top end picks to get there....Look at the history...

Unless some magical trade where we are going to trade off Dick/JaKobe/Yak/Brown to the Pistons/Wizards for 2025/2026 unprotected 1st rounders ....I don't see the point being made here...

[OakleyDokely]

Last 10 Final MVPs and how they were acquired:

2014: Kawhi - Drafted 15th by own team
2015: Iguodala - Free Agent
2016: Lebron - Free Agent
2017: Durant - Free Agent
2018: Durant - Free Agent
2019: Kawhi - Trade
2020: Lebron - Free Agent
2021: Giannis - Drafted 15th by own team
2022: Curry - Drafted 7th by own team
2023: Jokic - Drafted 41st by own team
2024: Brown - Drafted 3rd by own team (pick acquired through trade)

Brown was the first top 5 pick that won finals mvp with the team that drafted him since Wade in 2006.

[Clutch0z24]

Last 10 Final MVPs and how they were acquired:

2014: Kawhi - Drafted 15th by own team
2015: Iguodala - Free Agent
2016: Lebron - Free Agent
2017: Durant - Free Agent
2018: Durant - Free Agent
2019: Kawhi - Trade
2020: Lebron - Free Agent
2021: Giannis - Drafted 15th by own team
2022: Curry - Drafted 7th by own team
2023: Jokic - Drafted 41st by own team
2024: Brown - Drafted 3rd by own team (pick acquired through trade)

Brown was the first top 5 pick that won finals mvp with the team that drafted him since Wade in 2006.

Only 1 team is going to win the title every year....And to make a straw man argument by bringing up just the "Finals MVP" acting as if Curry/Klay weren't huge parts of all them Warriors titles ....Is just hilarious to me...The 2 guys that made the Warriors what they were in Steph/Klay were drafted with high end picks...

The Warriors dominated an era by drafting high and adding good players around them to maintain it for as long as they could...
2014 Kawhi might have been FMVP but they still had their main guys from the Duncan era.... who was still playing at a high level at his age...

The only Finals you have a case with here is the Giannis Bucks team and the Jokic Nuggets team, And our own title which lets all admit here came off a once in a lifetime trade that will never be seen not just in Raptors history but in NBA history......All the other teams that won had won due to making the right picks high end picks in the draft....LBJ going back to Clev where he was drafted number 1....Was something he was always going to do at some point...

Listing just the FMVP As if thats the end all be all is just you trying to drive a narrative to make your argument against the draft look good...Its a team game ....You have to look at the whole rosters of all them teams and look at where the guys were drafted...

Lbj also had Kyrie who was drafted....1st overall....Used another 1st overall pick in Wiggins to get K-Love...Who was also drafted 5th overall...

[Rodrickle]

Really a toss up. We're a bad team but not that bad. Too many teams are tanking, especially in the east

Sent from my SM-S901W using RealGM mobile app

[OakleyDokely]

GS built their dynasty with picks 7, 11 and 35, otherwise known as treadmill picks on this board.

[Clutch0z24]

GS built their dynasty with picks 7, 11 and 35, otherwise known as treadmill picks on this board.

7 is a high end draft pick....You can get franchise players in that range...Idk who said thats a treadmill pick....If you get 7th there are many chances especially in a deep draft that a franchise player could fall into your lap...Just like Warriors got with Curry....

But yeah history shown the higher you pick the better the player .....But that doesn't mean players like Curry can't fall to you at 7...

11th gets a little tougher but if you already have your number 1 option in play finding the 2nd/3rd like a Klay/Draymond in that range of the draft makes it alot more easier.....Cause at 11th there are many possible ways you find a 2nd option like Klay......Lets be real as well without Curry/Klay Draymond does not turn out to be half the player he became....

The Raptors still have to find their number 1...This is why alot of the pro Tankers for the 2025 class are so adimit about it because this deep draft may have many 1st options in it...And if we were to end up getting a legit 1st option out this draft we are already 10 steps ahead of every other rebuilding team in the NBA as we would have a 2nd/3rd and even a 4th option already on the team...

Barnes would be a perfect 2nd option with 1st option upside...Now add a legit 1st option to that...You then have a dynasty...

[OakleyDokely]

GS built their dynasty with picks 7, 11 and 35, otherwise known as treadmill picks on this board.

7 is a high end draft pick....You can get franchise players in that range...Idk who said thats a treadmill pick....If you get 7th there are many chances especially in a deep draft that a franchise player could fall into your lap...Just like Warriors got with Curry....

But yeah history shown the higher you pick the better the player .....But that doesn't mean players like Curry can't fall to you at 7...

11th gets a little tougher but if you already have your number 1 option in play finding the 2nd/3rd like a Klay/Draymond in that range of the draft makes it alot more easier.....Cause at 11th there are many possible ways you find a 2nd option like Klay......Lets be real as well without Curry/Klay Draymond does not turn out to be half the player he became....

The Raptors still have to find their number 1...This is why alot of the pro Tankers for the 2025 class are so adimit about it because this deep draft may have many 1st options in it...And if we were to end up getting a legit 1st option out this draft we are already 10 steps ahead of every other rebuilding team in the NBA as we would have a 2nd/3rd and even a 4th option already on the team...

Barnes would be a perfect 2nd option with 1st option upside...Now add a legit 1st option to that...You then have a dynasty...

Recent history has shown that most teams are acquiring a finals MVP level player through alternate routes, via trade (the nba basically have a soccer-like transfer portal every season), via free agency, via lower picks.

It's extremely difficult to build a championship level team after being bad enough to get a top pick before that great young talent just gets tired of all the losing and just bolts like KD and Lebron did.

No one disputes that a lot of great players come from top picks, it's just that those top picks just leave their crappy teams who developed them to be with a contender. A balance between competitiveness and strategically targeting pick position needs to be met, otherwise you end up in a never ending cycle of losing regardless of where you're drafting.

[WuTang_CMB]

This will be an interesting year to really evaluate where this organization is. As we all asked for, we finally got out of the mud the last couple of years and now have a clear direction with a young roster. I will be a broken record on this but 24/25 is "let the chips fall" season.

We have all our picks so we can choose our own destiny moving forward. If the season is lost by the TD, Darko will give the younger guys a lot more burn which is the right thing to do and it will also help us get a better pick.

Raps need to keep loading up on talent. We don't want to rush this thing. Patience and development have been the key words coming out from the team, so that's a good sign. Even if the team wins say 28-33 games next season, at least it will be fun tracking the development and growth of BBQ Dick, Shead, JKW, Mogbo etc

[Clutch0z24]

GS built their dynasty with picks 7, 11 and 35, otherwise known as treadmill picks on this board.

7 is a high end draft pick....You can get franchise players in that range...Idk who said thats a treadmill pick....If you get 7th there are many chances especially in a deep draft that a franchise player could fall into your lap...Just like Warriors got with Curry....

But yeah history shown the higher you pick the better the player .....But that doesn't mean players like Curry can't fall to you at 7...

11th gets a little tougher but if you already have your number 1 option in play finding the 2nd/3rd like a Klay/Draymond in that range of the draft makes it alot more easier.....Cause at 11th there are many possible ways you find a 2nd option like Klay......Lets be real as well without Curry/Klay Draymond does not turn out to be half the player he became....

The Raptors still have to find their number 1...This is why alot of the pro Tankers for the 2025 class are so adimit about it because this deep draft may have many 1st options in it...And if we were to end up getting a legit 1st option out this draft we are already 10 steps ahead of every other rebuilding team in the NBA as we would have a 2nd/3rd and even a 4th option already on the team...

Barnes would be a perfect 2nd option with 1st option upside...Now add a legit 1st option to that...You then have a dynasty...

Recent history has shown that most teams are acquiring a finals MVP level player through alternate routes, via trade (the nba basically have a soccer-like transfer portal every season), via free agency, via lower picks.

It's extremely difficult to build a championship level team after being bad enough to get a top pick before that great young talent just gets tired of all the losing and just bolts like KD and Lebron did.

No one disputes that a lot of great players come from top picks, it's just that those top picks just leave their crappy teams who developed them to be with a contender. A balance between competitiveness and strategically targeting pick position needs to be met.

Your missing the point here.....Btw the Finals MVP is not proving anything...All the Finals MVP is ...Is the player who played the best during a 7 game stretch...That has nothing to do with 1st options...And you also have to look at the bigger picture like i explained to you how these teams aquired these players...

Like i said your only valid points are the Nuggets with Jokic (Who drafted Murray 8th who is his 2nd option), And the Giannis Bucks...But lets look at the history of the entire NBA ....The chances you get these kind of players at 15/41 are basicaly 000000000000.1% ....

You are also only looking at the last 10 years when there are 30 years behind that has a track record showing that high end draft picks results in NBA Dynasties...As i explained a few posts above^^^

For the Warriors dynasty they drafted high at 7/11 and got their franchise player in Curry at 7 (Its a high end draft pick), And at the 11th range like i said you can find 2nd options in that range....Without Curry/Klay the Warriors never get KD in free agency...KD joined that team because of Curry and Klay...

Like i said the Spurs with Kawhi had still the Dynasty with number 1 pick Duncan to play with...Kawhi was a friggin rookie you think he lead that Spurs team to the title? He helped but he wasn't the only reason they won...

Cavs had gotten 2 number 1 picks for LBJ to want to go back to Clev (Where he got drafted number 1 there before and its his hometown) ....Hes on record saying he went back cause he wanted to play with Kyrie...Who was drafted 1....Also traded Wiggins 1st pick for 5th pick K-Love...

Anyways ....The Raptors are not a free agent destination and never have been ....Prolly never will be....We lack trade assets atm because we are rebuilding....We just have young unproven players...Unless you are wanting to Trade Barnes for a superstar but then that just gets you no where because that player won't have guys to really have players to win with...

If we were a legit F/A Desitnation and players were demanding to be traded here your point would be valid ....But thats not the case here....So the draft is the best way for us to get a legit number 1 option..

We are also not a "Bad team" if we ended up drafting a legit number 1 option he would have Barnes/IQ/Barrett to play with ...We would be a legit dynasty if for example we added a Flagg or a Bailey to that team...That is why so many are pro tanking for the 2025 draft...Cause the upside is just so high to pass on it Esp in this draft class..

[OakleyDokely]

7 is a high end draft pick....You can get franchise players in that range...Idk who said thats a treadmill pick....If you get 7th there are many chances especially in a deep draft that a franchise player could fall into your lap...Just like Warriors got with Curry....

But yeah history shown the higher you pick the better the player .....But that doesn't mean players like Curry can't fall to you at 7...

11th gets a little tougher but if you already have your number 1 option in play finding the 2nd/3rd like a Klay/Draymond in that range of the draft makes it alot more easier.....Cause at 11th there are many possible ways you find a 2nd option like Klay......Lets be real as well without Curry/Klay Draymond does not turn out to be half the player he became....

The Raptors still have to find their number 1...This is why alot of the pro Tankers for the 2025 class are so adimit about it because this deep draft may have many 1st options in it...And if we were to end up getting a legit 1st option out this draft we are already 10 steps ahead of every other rebuilding team in the NBA as we would have a 2nd/3rd and even a 4th option already on the team...

Barnes would be a perfect 2nd option with 1st option upside...Now add a legit 1st option to that...You then have a dynasty...

Recent history has shown that most teams are acquiring a finals MVP level player through alternate routes, via trade (the nba basically have a soccer-like transfer portal every season), via free agency, via lower picks.

It's extremely difficult to build a championship level team after being bad enough to get a top pick before that great young talent just gets tired of all the losing and just bolts like KD and Lebron did.

No one disputes that a lot of great players come from top picks, it's just that those top picks just leave their crappy teams who developed them to be with a contender. A balance between competitiveness and strategically targeting pick position needs to be met.

Your missing the point here.....Btw the Finals MVP is not proving anything...All the Finals MVP is ...Is the player who played the best during a 7 game stretch...That has nothing to do with 1st options...And you also have to look at the bigger picture like i explained to you how these teams aquired these players...

Like i said your only valid points are the Nuggets with Jokic (Who drafted Murray 8th who is his 2nd option), And the Giannis Bucks...But lets look at the history of the entire NBA ....The chances you get these kind of players at 15/41 are basicaly 000000000000.1% ....

For the Warriors dynasty they drafted high at 7/11 and got their franchise player in Curry at 7 (Its a high end draft pick), And at the 11th range like i said you can find 2nd options in that range....Without Curry/Klay the Warriors never get KD in free agency...KD joined that team because of Curry and Klay...

Like i said the Spurs with Kawhi had still the Dynasty with number 1 pick Duncan to play with...Kawhi was a friggin rookie you think he lead that Spurs team to the title? He helped but he wasn't the only reason they won...

Cavs had gotten 2 number 1 picks for LBJ to want to go back to Clev (Where he got drafted number 1 there before and its his hometown) ....Hes on record saying he went back cause he wanted to play with Kyrie...Who was drafted 1....Also traded Wiggins 1st pick for 5th pick K-Love...

Anyways ....The Raptors are not a free agent destination and never have been ....Prolly never will be....We lack trade assets atm because we are rebuilding....We just have young unproven players...Unless you are wanting to Trade Barnes for a superstar but then that just gets you no where because that player won't have guys to really have players to win with...

If we were a legit F/A Desitnation and players were demanding to be traded here your point would be valid ....But thats not the case here....So the draft is the best way for us to get a legit number 1 option..

We are also not a "Bad team" if we ended up drafting a legit number 1 option he would have Barnes/IQ/Barrett to play with ...We would be a legit dynasty if for example we added a Flagg or a Bailey to that team...That is why so many are pro tanking for the 2025 draft...Cause the upside is just so high to pass on it Esp in this draft class..

In almost every case, the finals MVP is the best player on the team and that type of player is the hardest to get and the most important part of a championship core.

The only outliers on that list were 2014 Kawhi, 2015 Iggy and maybe 2024 Brown, although Brown is right there with Tatum in a 1a/1b situation and Brown outplayed Tatum throughout the entire playoff run.

[Clutch0z24]

Recent history has shown that most teams are acquiring a finals MVP level player through alternate routes, via trade (the nba basically have a soccer-like transfer portal every season), via free agency, via lower picks.

It's extremely difficult to build a championship level team after being bad enough to get a top pick before that great young talent just gets tired of all the losing and just bolts like KD and Lebron did.

No one disputes that a lot of great players come from top picks, it's just that those top picks just leave their crappy teams who developed them to be with a contender. A balance between competitiveness and strategically targeting pick position needs to be met.

Your missing the point here.....Btw the Finals MVP is not proving anything...All the Finals MVP is ...Is the player who played the best during a 7 game stretch...That has nothing to do with 1st options...And you also have to look at the bigger picture like i explained to you how these teams aquired these players...

Like i said your only valid points are the Nuggets with Jokic (Who drafted Murray 8th who is his 2nd option), And the Giannis Bucks...But lets look at the history of the entire NBA ....The chances you get these kind of players at 15/41 are basicaly 000000000000.1% ....

For the Warriors dynasty they drafted high at 7/11 and got their franchise player in Curry at 7 (Its a high end draft pick), And at the 11th range like i said you can find 2nd options in that range....Without Curry/Klay the Warriors never get KD in free agency...KD joined that team because of Curry and Klay...

Like i said the Spurs with Kawhi had still the Dynasty with number 1 pick Duncan to play with...Kawhi was a friggin rookie you think he lead that Spurs team to the title? He helped but he wasn't the only reason they won...

Cavs had gotten 2 number 1 picks for LBJ to want to go back to Clev (Where he got drafted number 1 there before and its his hometown) ....Hes on record saying he went back cause he wanted to play with Kyrie...Who was drafted 1....Also traded Wiggins 1st pick for 5th pick K-Love...

Anyways ....The Raptors are not a free agent destination and never have been ....Prolly never will be....We lack trade assets atm because we are rebuilding....We just have young unproven players...Unless you are wanting to Trade Barnes for a superstar but then that just gets you no where because that player won't have guys to really have players to win with...

If we were a legit F/A Desitnation and players were demanding to be traded here your point would be valid ....But thats not the case here....So the draft is the best way for us to get a legit number 1 option..

We are also not a "Bad team" if we ended up drafting a legit number 1 option he would have Barnes/IQ/Barrett to play with ...We would be a legit dynasty if for example we added a Flagg or a Bailey to that team...That is why so many are pro tanking for the 2025 draft...Cause the upside is just so high to pass on it Esp in this draft class..

In almost every case, the finals MVP is the best player on the team and that type of player is the hardest to get and the most important part of a championship core.

You can't just look at the finals MVP and make an argument esp just the last 10 FMVPS lol....again that is just you trying to drive a narrative that suits your arguments...

Kawhi Doesn't win FMVP with the Spurs if it wasn't for Duncan and the Dynasty he built previously to Kawhi arriving, KD Doesn't join the Warriors if Steph/Klay didn't build the dynasty they built with the Warriors, LeBron Doesn't go back to Cleveland if they didn't draft a talent at number 1 like Kyrie and trade the number 1 pick in Wiggns for another top 5 pick in K-Love, Celtics won their title with 2 top 3 picks...Tatum & Brown both could have been FMVPS ...Both are amazing players that were drafted top 5....

The trend of drafting high has worked and to try and argue it is insanity...Just go back to the 1980s and look at the history of the NBA and which teams were the teams that had the most success...You will find an obvious trend that drafting high works...

Idk what your even arguing at this point with all the facts ive shown you...Also realize we are not a destination for "Star players" in trades or free agency...Cause yes as messed up as it is players now are getting power to demand where they are traded too...Thats been a trend the last 5 years...No one is demanding to be traded to play with the Raptors...

That is why the draft is key for our success..

[OakleyDokely]

Your missing the point here.....Btw the Finals MVP is not proving anything...All the Finals MVP is ...Is the player who played the best during a 7 game stretch...That has nothing to do with 1st options...And you also have to look at the bigger picture like i explained to you how these teams aquired these players...

Like i said your only valid points are the Nuggets with Jokic (Who drafted Murray 8th who is his 2nd option), And the Giannis Bucks...But lets look at the history of the entire NBA ....The chances you get these kind of players at 15/41 are basicaly 000000000000.1% ....

For the Warriors dynasty they drafted high at 7/11 and got their franchise player in Curry at 7 (Its a high end draft pick), And at the 11th range like i said you can find 2nd options in that range....Without Curry/Klay the Warriors never get KD in free agency...KD joined that team because of Curry and Klay...

Like i said the Spurs with Kawhi had still the Dynasty with number 1 pick Duncan to play with...Kawhi was a friggin rookie you think he lead that Spurs team to the title? He helped but he wasn't the only reason they won...

Cavs had gotten 2 number 1 picks for LBJ to want to go back to Clev (Where he got drafted number 1 there before and its his hometown) ....Hes on record saying he went back cause he wanted to play with Kyrie...Who was drafted 1....Also traded Wiggins 1st pick for 5th pick K-Love...

Anyways ....The Raptors are not a free agent destination and never have been ....Prolly never will be....We lack trade assets atm because we are rebuilding....We just have young unproven players...Unless you are wanting to Trade Barnes for a superstar but then that just gets you no where because that player won't have guys to really have players to win with...

If we were a legit F/A Desitnation and players were demanding to be traded here your point would be valid ....But thats not the case here....So the draft is the best way for us to get a legit number 1 option..

We are also not a "Bad team" if we ended up drafting a legit number 1 option he would have Barnes/IQ/Barrett to play with ...We would be a legit dynasty if for example we added a Flagg or a Bailey to that team...That is why so many are pro tanking for the 2025 draft...Cause the upside is just so high to pass on it Esp in this draft class..

In almost every case, the finals MVP is the best player on the team and that type of player is the hardest to get and the most important part of a championship core.

You can't just look at the finals MVP and make an argument esp just the last 10 FMVPS lol....again that is just you trying to drive a narrative that suits your arguments...

Kawhi Doesn't win FMVP with the Spurs if it wasn't for Duncan and the Dynasty he built previously to Kawhi arriving, KD Doesn't join the Warriors if Steph/Klay didn't build the dynasty they built with the Warriors, LeBron Doesn't go back to Cleveland if they didn't draft a talent at number 1 like Kyrie and trade the number 1 pick in Wiggns for another top 5 pick in K-Love, Celtics won their title with 2 top 3 picks...Tatum & Brown both could have been FMVPS ...Both are amazing players that were drafted top 5....

The trend of drafting high has worked and to try and argue it is insanity...Just go back to the 1980s and look at the history of the NBA and which teams were the teams that had the most success...You will find an obvious trend that drafting high works...

The hardest piece to acquire is an elite, top 10 player...by far.

Secondary players don't matter if you don't have a superstar. Teams don't win titles without a superstar. So understanding how these superstars were acquired matters.

If you need to go back 40 years when it comes to team building, you aren't going to be very successful. Drafting high is good for acquiring talent, winning with that talent is a different story.

[Clutch0z24]

In almost every case, the finals MVP is the best player on the team and that type of player is the hardest to get and the most important part of a championship core.

You can't just look at the finals MVP and make an argument esp just the last 10 FMVPS lol....again that is just you trying to drive a narrative that suits your arguments...

Kawhi Doesn't win FMVP with the Spurs if it wasn't for Duncan and the Dynasty he built previously to Kawhi arriving, KD Doesn't join the Warriors if Steph/Klay didn't build the dynasty they built with the Warriors, LeBron Doesn't go back to Cleveland if they didn't draft a talent at number 1 like Kyrie and trade the number 1 pick in Wiggns for another top 5 pick in K-Love, Celtics won their title with 2 top 3 picks...Tatum & Brown both could have been FMVPS ...Both are amazing players that were drafted top 5....

The trend of drafting high has worked and to try and argue it is insanity...Just go back to the 1980s and look at the history of the NBA and which teams were the teams that had the most success...You will find an obvious trend that drafting high works...

The hardest piece to acquire is an elite, top 10 player...by far.

None of those other players matter if you don't have a superstar. None of those teams win anything without a superstar. So understanding how these superstars were acquired matters.

Lol again...Your skipping steps in the process and not understanding what im saying to you....You can't open a book at the end read the last few chapters and say you know everything about the book....You have to read the whole book and how the ending came to be...Your trying to skip ahead all the important steps it took for these teams to aquire said superstar and say well hey look man these teams got Superstars who just suddenly wanted to join their teams...Thats what we are going to do...

It doesn't work that way...These teams that ended up winning all have 1 thing in common...They all had high end picks at one point to entice said superstar to join said team....No one is just going to join the Raptors for no reason...If we had a Dynasty going on here built up through the draft like the Warriors had...Maybe a few superstars would want to join us ...But even then its hard to say cause Kawhi had Canada in the palm of his hands and still decided to leave...

[OakleyDokely]

You can't just look at the finals MVP and make an argument esp just the last 10 FMVPS lol....again that is just you trying to drive a narrative that suits your arguments...

Kawhi Doesn't win FMVP with the Spurs if it wasn't for Duncan and the Dynasty he built previously to Kawhi arriving, KD Doesn't join the Warriors if Steph/Klay didn't build the dynasty they built with the Warriors, LeBron Doesn't go back to Cleveland if they didn't draft a talent at number 1 like Kyrie and trade the number 1 pick in Wiggns for another top 5 pick in K-Love, Celtics won their title with 2 top 3 picks...Tatum & Brown both could have been FMVPS ...Both are amazing players that were drafted top 5....

The trend of drafting high has worked and to try and argue it is insanity...Just go back to the 1980s and look at the history of the NBA and which teams were the teams that had the most success...You will find an obvious trend that drafting high works...

The hardest piece to acquire is an elite, top 10 player...by far.

None of those other players matter if you don't have a superstar. None of those teams win anything without a superstar. So understanding how these superstars were acquired matters.

Lol again...Your skipping steps in the process and not understanding what im saying to you....You can't open a book at the end read the last few chapters and say you know everything about the book....You have to read the whole book and how the ending came to be...Your trying to skip ahead all the important steps it took for these teams to aquire said superstar and say well hey look man these teams got Superstars who just suddenly wanted to join their teams...Thats what we are going to do...

It doesn't work that way...These teams that ended up winning all have 1 thing in common...They all had high end picks at one point to entice said superstar to join said team....No one is just going to join the Raptors for no reason...If we had a Dynasty going on here built up through the draft like the Warriors had...Maybe a few superstars would want to join us ...But even then its hard to say cause Kawhi had Canada in the palm of his hands and still decided to leave...

ya, elite players want to join the teams with the best talent, not the highest draft picks.

It's not about enticing a superstar. It's about having the assets to acquire that superstar. It's about having the supporting cast around that superstar. The teams that are best run tend to have these things because they draft well (in all spots) and they make good trades.

[Clutch0z24]

If you need to go back 40 years when it comes to team building, you aren't going to be very successful. Drafting high is good for acquiring talent, winning with that talent is a different story.

If you don't go back and look at how teams became winning dynasties and totally ignore how teams built teams throughout the history of the NBA and see what was successfull and what worked...Especally if your a team that doesn't attract superstars like we are ....Then your just not doing the job right...The history of the NBA certainly does matter....The pattern of winning matters...History shows...The teams who drafted top end players with top end picks became dynasties...

[OakleyDokely]

If you need to go back 40 years when it comes to team building, you aren't going to be very successful. Drafting high is good for acquiring talent, winning with that talent is a different story.

If you don't go back and look at how teams became winning dynasties and totally ignore how teams built teams throughout the history of the NBA and see what was successfull and what worked...Especally if your a team that doesn't attract superstars like we are ....Then your just not doing the job right...The history of the NBA certainly does matter....The pattern of winning matters...History shows...The teams who drafted top end players with top end picks became dynasties...

The entire structure of the NBA has changed dramatically over the last 40 years, and it isn't remotely the same now.

[Clutch0z24]

The hardest piece to acquire is an elite, top 10 player...by far.

None of those other players matter if you don't have a superstar. None of those teams win anything without a superstar. So understanding how these superstars were acquired matters.

Lol again...Your skipping steps in the process and not understanding what im saying to you....You can't open a book at the end read the last few chapters and say you know everything about the book....You have to read the whole book and how the ending came to be...Your trying to skip ahead all the important steps it took for these teams to aquire said superstar and say well hey look man these teams got Superstars who just suddenly wanted to join their teams...Thats what we are going to do...

It doesn't work that way...These teams that ended up winning all have 1 thing in common...They all had high end picks at one point to entice said superstar to join said team....No one is just going to join the Raptors for no reason...If we had a Dynasty going on here built up through the draft like the Warriors had...Maybe a few superstars would want to join us ...But even then its hard to say cause Kawhi had Canada in the palm of his hands and still decided to leave...

ya, elite players want to join the teams with the best talent, not the highest draft picks.

It's not about enticing a superstar. It's about having the assets to acquire that superstar. It's about having the supporting cast around that superstar. The teams that are best run tend to have these things because they draft well (in all spots) and they make good trades.

Lol you can't make trades with what you don't have ....If you do not have the trade pieces to make said trade for said player ...How will you ever get it done? Especially with many teams outbidding you for said player...Look man Masai tried to aquire these players post Kawhi....He tried his hardest to get Giannis here in Free agency...That didn't work out, He tried hard to make a trade for KD....That didn't work out...Because he demanded to go to the Suns....(Player impowerment in todays NBA) , They tried to make a trade for Lillard...Didn't work out because he wanted to go to Miami..That didn't work out but they sent Lillard to one of his top destinations outside of Miami to the Bucks....

We tried to aquire players through trades but we lacked the Assets and in todays NBA where these players demand where they wanna go now in trades that makes it 10x harder for us to aquire these players...

If we were to get a top end draft pick in 2025...I can almost put my house on the line that Masai would find a 1st option...The 2025 is so stacked with all star level potential and franchise player potential its dumb not to try and go that route next year...Esp with a team not winning anything anyways..