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Official Ochai Agbaji Thread - Welcome to Toronto, Ochai!

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Re: Official Ochai Agbaji Thread - Welcome to Toronto, Ochai! 

Post#721 » by Duffman100 » Tue Jul 23, 2024 5:59 pm

OakleyDokely wrote:The Ochai situation is pretty simple. If he hits his 3s, he's useful off the bench because he's a capable cutter, passer and defender. If he doesn't hit his 3s, he's not really playable.

He hit his 3s in college and he was in the mid 30s with UTA, but his % collapsed in TOR. Some of that might be just due to a small sample size, some of it might have to do with playing in terrible lineups without proper spacing.

But it's up to him to prove his time in TOR last year was just a blimp and he starts hitting shots again when the Raps are at full strength.


I do agree but I saw some troubling things in Summer league. Not boxing out, step slow in closeouts and rotations, general lack of hustle.

Hopefully just SL because if he's regressing in those basic aspects...
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Re: Official Ochai Agbaji Thread - Welcome to Toronto, Ochai! 

Post#722 » by brownbobcat » Tue Jul 23, 2024 6:49 pm

Duffman100 wrote:
OakleyDokely wrote:The Ochai situation is pretty simple. If he hits his 3s, he's useful off the bench because he's a capable cutter, passer and defender. If he doesn't hit his 3s, he's not really playable.

He hit his 3s in college and he was in the mid 30s with UTA, but his % collapsed in TOR. Some of that might be just due to a small sample size, some of it might have to do with playing in terrible lineups without proper spacing.

But it's up to him to prove his time in TOR last year was just a blimp and he starts hitting shots again when the Raps are at full strength.


I do agree but I saw some troubling things in Summer league. Not boxing out, step slow in closeouts and rotations, general lack of hustle.

Hopefully just SL because if he's regressing in those basic aspects...

Agbaji is not good at basketball and it goes far beyond shooting 3s. He doesn't even defend well, he just has good foot speed.
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Re: Official Ochai Agbaji Thread - Welcome to Toronto, Ochai! 

Post#723 » by Duffman100 » Tue Jul 23, 2024 6:56 pm

brownbobcat wrote:
Duffman100 wrote:
OakleyDokely wrote:The Ochai situation is pretty simple. If he hits his 3s, he's useful off the bench because he's a capable cutter, passer and defender. If he doesn't hit his 3s, he's not really playable.

He hit his 3s in college and he was in the mid 30s with UTA, but his % collapsed in TOR. Some of that might be just due to a small sample size, some of it might have to do with playing in terrible lineups without proper spacing.

But it's up to him to prove his time in TOR last year was just a blimp and he starts hitting shots again when the Raps are at full strength.


I do agree but I saw some troubling things in Summer league. Not boxing out, step slow in closeouts and rotations, general lack of hustle.

Hopefully just SL because if he's regressing in those basic aspects...

Agbaji is not good at basketball and it goes far beyond shooting 3s. He doesn't even defend well, he just has good foot speed.


I disagree, I saw some fantastic defense from him last season in his stint here.

He had one game where he made life very difficult for Banchero.
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Re: Official Ochai Agbaji Thread - Welcome to Toronto, Ochai! 

Post#724 » by Duffman100 » Tue Jul 23, 2024 7:07 pm

Duffman100 wrote:
brownbobcat wrote:
Duffman100 wrote:
I do agree but I saw some troubling things in Summer league. Not boxing out, step slow in closeouts and rotations, general lack of hustle.

Hopefully just SL because if he's regressing in those basic aspects...

Agbaji is not good at basketball and it goes far beyond shooting 3s. He doesn't even defend well, he just has good foot speed.


I disagree, I saw some fantastic defense from him last season in his stint here.

He had one game where he made life very difficult for Banchero.


This was the game
https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/202403150TOR.html

Of course it was immediately followed up by Banchero lighting us up the next night
https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/202403170ORL.html
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Re: Official Ochai Agbaji Thread - Welcome to Toronto, Ochai! 

Post#725 » by Scase » Tue Jul 23, 2024 8:09 pm

OakleyDokely wrote:The Ochai situation is pretty simple. If he hits his 3s, he's useful off the bench because he's a capable cutter, passer and defender. If he doesn't hit his 3s, he's not really playable.

He hit his 3s in college and he was in the mid 30s with UTA, but his % collapsed in TOR. Some of that might be just due to a small sample size, some of it might have to do with playing in terrible lineups without proper spacing.

But it's up to him to prove his time in TOR last year was just a blimp and he starts hitting shots again when the Raps are at full strength.

Shorter 3pt line, and take a look at his heat maps in the NBA, he shoots the ball above average from only a single place on the entire court, everywhere else is WELL below average. You can blame some of that on the staff not putting him in the best spot to score from, but at the same time, that is an incredibly limiting situation to try and find success from.

He's just flat out not good at anything except being above average on defence. And that is not enough for the modern NBA.
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Re: Official Ochai Agbaji Thread - Welcome to Toronto, Ochai! 

Post#726 » by brownbobcat » Tue Jul 23, 2024 8:40 pm

Duffman100 wrote:
brownbobcat wrote:
Duffman100 wrote:
I do agree but I saw some troubling things in Summer league. Not boxing out, step slow in closeouts and rotations, general lack of hustle.

Hopefully just SL because if he's regressing in those basic aspects...

Agbaji is not good at basketball and it goes far beyond shooting 3s. He doesn't even defend well, he just has good foot speed.


I disagree, I saw some fantastic defense from him last season in his stint here.

He had one game where he made life very difficult for Banchero.

1-on-1, yes. But as soon as he has to navigate screens, recognize off-ball movement, rotate, recover, box out, etc. he starts to struggle from what I saw. He doesn't really disrupt passing lanes or body guys, kinda reminds me of Achiuwa in that sense.
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Re: Official Ochai Agbaji Thread - Welcome to Toronto, Ochai! 

Post#727 » by Duffman100 » Tue Jul 23, 2024 8:43 pm

brownbobcat wrote:
Duffman100 wrote:
brownbobcat wrote:Agbaji is not good at basketball and it goes far beyond shooting 3s. He doesn't even defend well, he just has good foot speed.


I disagree, I saw some fantastic defense from him last season in his stint here.

He had one game where he made life very difficult for Banchero.

1-on-1, yes. But as soon as he has to navigate screens, recognize off-ball movement, rotate, recover, box out, etc. he starts to struggle from what I saw. He doesn't really disrupt passing lanes or body guys, kinda reminds me of Achiuwa in that sense.


I didn't see that but can't say I 100% remember. I also doubt how much to take away from things like that with the revolving door of people playing last year.

He definitely didn't impress me in SL at all with the intangibles, so we'll see how he does in preseason.
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Re: Official Ochai Agbaji Thread - Welcome to Toronto, Ochai! 

Post#728 » by C_Money » Tue Jul 23, 2024 9:16 pm

brownbobcat wrote:
Duffman100 wrote:
brownbobcat wrote:Agbaji is not good at basketball and it goes far beyond shooting 3s. He doesn't even defend well, he just has good foot speed.


I disagree, I saw some fantastic defense from him last season in his stint here.

He had one game where he made life very difficult for Banchero.

1-on-1, yes. But as soon as he has to navigate screens, recognize off-ball movement, rotate, recover, box out, etc. he starts to struggle from what I saw. He doesn't really disrupt passing lanes or body guys, kinda reminds me of Achiuwa in that sense.


Yeah, team defence is something people don’t always consider when discussing defence. Ochai sucked at it last year but so did everybody else lol.
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Re: Official Ochai Agbaji Thread - Welcome to Toronto, Ochai! 

Post#729 » by brownbobcat » Tue Jul 23, 2024 9:27 pm

C_Money wrote:
brownbobcat wrote:
Duffman100 wrote:
I disagree, I saw some fantastic defense from him last season in his stint here.

He had one game where he made life very difficult for Banchero.

1-on-1, yes. But as soon as he has to navigate screens, recognize off-ball movement, rotate, recover, box out, etc. he starts to struggle from what I saw. He doesn't really disrupt passing lanes or body guys, kinda reminds me of Achiuwa in that sense.


Yeah, team defence is something people don’t always consider when discussing defence. Ochai sucked at it last year but so did everybody else lol.

I acknowledge the team aspect is a big part of it. If there isn't collective execution of the scheme(s), everyone is going to look bad even if they did what they were supposed to.
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Re: Official Ochai Agbaji Thread - Welcome to Toronto, Ochai! 

Post#730 » by PushDaRock » Tue Jul 23, 2024 9:35 pm

OakleyDokely wrote:The Ochai situation is pretty simple. If he hits his 3s, he's useful off the bench because he's a capable cutter, passer and defender. If he doesn't hit his 3s, he's not really playable.

He hit his 3s in college and he was in the mid 30s with UTA, but his % collapsed in TOR. Some of that might be just due to a small sample size, some of it might have to do with playing in terrible lineups without proper spacing.

But it's up to him to prove his time in TOR last year was just a blimp and he starts hitting shots again when the Raps are at full strength.


His shooting % on Corner 3's basically fell off a cliff here. He went from 43% from the corners in Utah to 28% here.

His summer league performance also wasn't encouraging at all.

He has a club option for 6.4m in 25/26 that they need to decide whether to pick up or not before the season, it's not inconceivable that it doesn't get picked up.
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Re: Official Ochai Agbaji Thread - Welcome to Toronto, Ochai! 

Post#731 » by torsport » Wed Jul 24, 2024 1:44 pm

Ugh,

I was initially excited about the Ochai trade as a potential OG type replacement. Lottery pick with a good pedigree of 3 point shooting and defense. Great in transition and good cutter. But he's been awful and Summer League was even worse considering a 3 year NBA player should really go in and dominate competition (which is made up mostly of fringe NBA prospects).

If this is a development year, I'm good to start the season with him in the starting lineup. See what he can do with better players around him. He's proven he's not a creator so camping out at the corner and cutting to the basket is really the kind of player our starting rotation needs on offense. IQ and Scotty, even Jak will have the ball in their hands more to initiate offense and can catch a cutter or someone in the corner for an open shot. RJ is one of the only driving forces and having an outlet to pass to is all Ochai needs to be.

Then if he can show POA defense to support IQ on the perimeter and allow Scotty to patrol the low block we have a pretty decent defense.

It also gives Gradey another year (or half season) of development and building strength. Not to mention gives our bench a scoring threat.

If he can't thrive in the above role you trade him at the deadline if you can (someone may think they can develop him), or relegate him to the bench and not offer an extension in the off season because he's proven he's not an NBA player.

I'd give him 20 games to see what he can do with the starters before I close the book on him. We've seen other players thrive with the starters and perform poorly off the bench (GTJ). Maybe it's what he needs.

What complicates matters is if BB isn't dealt before the start of the season. I think Raps would prefer to showcase BB for a potential deadline trade rather than develop Ochai, to minimize the risk of wasting BB as an tradeable player that can return draft capital or a 2nd draft type player.
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Re: Official Ochai Agbaji Thread - Welcome to Toronto, Ochai! 

Post#732 » by Scase » Wed Jul 24, 2024 3:09 pm

torsport wrote:Ugh,

I was initially excited about the Ochai trade as a potential OG type replacement. Lottery pick with a good pedigree of 3 point shooting and defense. Great in transition and good cutter. But he's been awful and Summer League was even worse considering a 3 year NBA player should really go in and dominate competition (which is made up mostly of fringe NBA prospects).

If this is a development year, I'm good to start the season with him in the starting lineup. See what he can do with better players around him. He's proven he's not a creator so camping out at the corner and cutting to the basket is really the kind of player our starting rotation needs on offense. IQ and Scotty, even Jak will have the ball in their hands more to initiate offense and can catch a cutter or someone in the corner for an open shot. RJ is one of the only driving forces and having an outlet to pass to is all Ochai needs to be.

Then if he can show POA defense to support IQ on the perimeter and allow Scotty to patrol the low block we have a pretty decent defense.

It also gives Gradey another year (or half season) of development and building strength. Not to mention gives our bench a scoring threat.

If he can't thrive in the above role you trade him at the deadline if you can (someone may think they can develop him), or relegate him to the bench and not offer an extension in the off season because he's proven he's not an NBA player.

I'd give him 20 games to see what he can do with the starters before I close the book on him. We've seen other players thrive with the starters and perform poorly off the bench (GTJ). Maybe it's what he needs.

What complicates matters is if BB isn't dealt before the start of the season. I think Raps would prefer to showcase BB for a potential deadline trade rather than develop Ochai, to minimize the risk of wasting BB as an tradeable player that can return draft capital or a 2nd draft type player.



This bit actually isn't accurate, GTJ played better as a reserve in 22-23 season than a starter. Last year he was marginally worse, at worst I'd say it's a wash. A player is definitely going to play better with more talent around them, but you shouldn't fall off the face of the earth due to that. You don't take a player who has a ceiling of like a 7/8th guy and throw him with the starters cause he's not good on the bench, you find another player. You don't make roster moves to accommodate mediocre/bad players.

While I don't think last year was a fair shake to pretty much anyone on the roster, he didn't exactly impress in SL either. As critical as I am about RJ, he was playing in a bad situation like the rest of the roster, and he played better than his time on the Knicks. Maybe it's not sustainable, maybe it is, but talented players will still look better surrounded by worse ones, think Malachi Flynn dropping 70+ in a pro am tourney.

Ochai just makes bad plays, and fades into the background. He's like Flynn, Achiuwa, and a myriad of other players that are too good for the lower leagues, but not really good enough for the NBA.
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Re: Official Ochai Agbaji Thread - Welcome to Toronto, Ochai! 

Post#733 » by torsport » Wed Jul 24, 2024 3:20 pm

Scase wrote:
torsport wrote:Ugh,

I was initially excited about the Ochai trade as a potential OG type replacement. Lottery pick with a good pedigree of 3 point shooting and defense. Great in transition and good cutter. But he's been awful and Summer League was even worse considering a 3 year NBA player should really go in and dominate competition (which is made up mostly of fringe NBA prospects).

If this is a development year, I'm good to start the season with him in the starting lineup. See what he can do with better players around him. He's proven he's not a creator so camping out at the corner and cutting to the basket is really the kind of player our starting rotation needs on offense. IQ and Scotty, even Jak will have the ball in their hands more to initiate offense and can catch a cutter or someone in the corner for an open shot. RJ is one of the only driving forces and having an outlet to pass to is all Ochai needs to be.

Then if he can show POA defense to support IQ on the perimeter and allow Scotty to patrol the low block we have a pretty decent defense.

It also gives Gradey another year (or half season) of development and building strength. Not to mention gives our bench a scoring threat.

If he can't thrive in the above role you trade him at the deadline if you can (someone may think they can develop him), or relegate him to the bench and not offer an extension in the off season because he's proven he's not an NBA player.

I'd give him 20 games to see what he can do with the starters before I close the book on him. We've seen other players thrive with the starters and perform poorly off the bench (GTJ). Maybe it's what he needs.

What complicates matters is if BB isn't dealt before the start of the season. I think Raps would prefer to showcase BB for a potential deadline trade rather than develop Ochai, to minimize the risk of wasting BB as an tradeable player that can return draft capital or a 2nd draft type player.



This bit actually isn't accurate, GTJ played better as a reserve in 22-23 season than a starter. Last year he was marginally worse, at worst I'd say it's a wash. A player is definitely going to play better with more talent around them, but you shouldn't fall off the face of the earth due to that. You don't take a player who has a ceiling of like a 7/8th guy and throw him with the starters cause he's not good on the bench, you find another player. You don't make roster moves to accommodate mediocre/bad players.

While I don't think last year was a fair shake to pretty much anyone on the roster, he didn't exactly impress in SL either. As critical as I am about RJ, he was playing in a bad situation like the rest of the roster, and he played better than his time on the Knicks. Maybe it's not sustainable, maybe it is, but talented players will still look better surrounded by worse ones, think Malachi Flynn dropping 70+ in a pro am tourney.

Ochai just makes bad plays, and fades into the background. He's like Flynn, Achiuwa, and a myriad of other players that are too good for the lower leagues, but not really good enough for the NBA.


You're right on all accounts. Ochai hasn't even proven he's too good for the lower leagues based on his SL performance. I just feel like he had a decent rookie campaign with Utah (43/35/80 with a .561 TS%) and was better there than he was here after the trade. So there's just a mystery as to why such a drop off. That's why I'd give him a real shot to show what he can do under the best possible circumstances before closing the books on him.
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Re: Official Ochai Agbaji Thread - Welcome to Toronto, Ochai! 

Post#734 » by Scase » Wed Jul 24, 2024 3:26 pm

torsport wrote:
Scase wrote:
torsport wrote:Ugh,

I was initially excited about the Ochai trade as a potential OG type replacement. Lottery pick with a good pedigree of 3 point shooting and defense. Great in transition and good cutter. But he's been awful and Summer League was even worse considering a 3 year NBA player should really go in and dominate competition (which is made up mostly of fringe NBA prospects).

If this is a development year, I'm good to start the season with him in the starting lineup. See what he can do with better players around him. He's proven he's not a creator so camping out at the corner and cutting to the basket is really the kind of player our starting rotation needs on offense. IQ and Scotty, even Jak will have the ball in their hands more to initiate offense and can catch a cutter or someone in the corner for an open shot. RJ is one of the only driving forces and having an outlet to pass to is all Ochai needs to be.

Then if he can show POA defense to support IQ on the perimeter and allow Scotty to patrol the low block we have a pretty decent defense.

It also gives Gradey another year (or half season) of development and building strength. Not to mention gives our bench a scoring threat.

If he can't thrive in the above role you trade him at the deadline if you can (someone may think they can develop him), or relegate him to the bench and not offer an extension in the off season because he's proven he's not an NBA player.

I'd give him 20 games to see what he can do with the starters before I close the book on him. We've seen other players thrive with the starters and perform poorly off the bench (GTJ). Maybe it's what he needs.

What complicates matters is if BB isn't dealt before the start of the season. I think Raps would prefer to showcase BB for a potential deadline trade rather than develop Ochai, to minimize the risk of wasting BB as an tradeable player that can return draft capital or a 2nd draft type player.



This bit actually isn't accurate, GTJ played better as a reserve in 22-23 season than a starter. Last year he was marginally worse, at worst I'd say it's a wash. A player is definitely going to play better with more talent around them, but you shouldn't fall off the face of the earth due to that. You don't take a player who has a ceiling of like a 7/8th guy and throw him with the starters cause he's not good on the bench, you find another player. You don't make roster moves to accommodate mediocre/bad players.

While I don't think last year was a fair shake to pretty much anyone on the roster, he didn't exactly impress in SL either. As critical as I am about RJ, he was playing in a bad situation like the rest of the roster, and he played better than his time on the Knicks. Maybe it's not sustainable, maybe it is, but talented players will still look better surrounded by worse ones, think Malachi Flynn dropping 70+ in a pro am tourney.

Ochai just makes bad plays, and fades into the background. He's like Flynn, Achiuwa, and a myriad of other players that are too good for the lower leagues, but not really good enough for the NBA.


You're right on all accounts. Ochai hasn't even proven he's too good for the lower leagues based on his SL performance. I just feel like he had a decent rookie campaign with Utah (43/35/80 with a .561 TS%) and was better there than he was here after the trade. So there's just a mystery as to why such a drop off. That's why I'd give him a real shot to show what he can do under the best possible circumstances before closing the books on him.

I don't mind giving him end of bench minutes to see if there is still something there, but he's done nothing to earn more than that. This team has too many younger players that I'd rather get a look at before him, even if he were to match his production on the Jazz, that's really not much more than a mid-end of bench player. The Cavs just picked him way too high, that's not on him, but it's also not on us to give him a ton of chances either.

Either he can showcase what he's good at in practice/limited end of bench minutes, or he can't. I'd rather give most of those minutes to Mitchell and see how he plays, this is the last year of his contract. Worst case with Ochai we can always pick up his option next year.
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Re: Official Ochai Agbaji Thread - Welcome to Toronto, Ochai! 

Post#735 » by junot111 » Wed Jul 24, 2024 11:51 pm

MessiahUjiri wrote:
Tripod wrote:
junot111 wrote:I have seen this argument repeated before. That would make sense for a prized FA like Siakam. Who is going to enter a bidding war for Kelly Olynyk? Let's be serious

Never said we can't have vets. Just that it's counter intuitive to give up higher upside assets for low upside vets during a rebuild.

So the Raps would be tbe only team wanting to sign Olynyk? All it takes is 2 to drive up the price.

29 in a bad draft is not a high upside asset.

And again, we didn't just get Olynyk....we got Ochai...2 years removed from 14th overall.

Bitch all you want, it's good value for 29. We still got youth who has shown he can be a rotational guy but needs to keep proving it and got a rotational vet. And guess what, both can be moved in the future if we want.



That guy is a troll, ignore him.


The other interesting thing about Olynyk is that we can trade him if we want. In fact I fully expect one of KO or Poeltl to be traded.

You can see KO fetching more value than the #29 last year - which alone is going to be great asset management. Ochai is “free”.

Just saw this, how am I a troll lol

JV signed for 3/30, but KO is going to command a bidding war for more than 2/26? It's a silly argument stop kidding yourselves
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Re: Official Ochai Agbaji Thread - Welcome to Toronto, Ochai! 

Post#736 » by God Squad » Thu Jul 25, 2024 1:05 pm

He looked bad last year, and he looked bad in summer league. He hasn't really looked good at any point since he's been here. So my expectations are nonexistent.
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Re: Official Ochai Agbaji Thread - Welcome to Toronto, Ochai! 

Post#737 » by LoveMyRaps » Wed Oct 16, 2024 4:02 am

He's looked very, VERY good this pre-season.

Kudos to him. Playing within his role, and just solid all-around basketball.

Making the right cuts, knocking down shots, finishing at the rim, and playing defense.
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Re: Official Ochai Agbaji Thread - Welcome to Toronto, Ochai! 

Post#738 » by Tripod » Wed Oct 16, 2024 4:21 am

LoveMyRaps wrote:He's looked very, VERY good this pre-season.

Kudos to him. Playing within his role, and just solid all-around basketball.

Making the right cuts, knocking down shots, finishing at the rim, and playing defense.

And maybe this is what he is showing in practice and his consistency will determine playing time.

But he was ALWAYS going to be given a chance this year...this is what rebuilding and development is. It's not just about 20 year olds.
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Re: Official Ochai Agbaji Thread - Welcome to Toronto, Ochai! 

Post#739 » by HangTime » Wed Oct 16, 2024 4:28 am

He's like an "inverted movement shooter"

Meaning, Defencivley he defends better the closer he moves toward the rim.
Perimeter to Interior

As a stand still, near the rim, it's harder for him to provide help.

On offence, he can just cut and attempt 3s.
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Re: Official Ochai Agbaji Thread - Welcome to Toronto, Ochai! 

Post#740 » by HiJiNX » Wed Oct 16, 2024 12:09 pm

LoveMyRaps wrote:He's looked very, VERY good this pre-season.

Kudos to him. Playing within his role, and just solid all-around basketball.

Making the right cuts, knocking down shots, finishing at the rim, and playing defense.

Yup my opinion on him is changing. He’s definitely watched a lot of film and worked on his finishing in the offseason. The shot looks better too in terms of fluidity in the release. Let’s see if that’ll translate to results.
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