Which of these recent players will ultimately rank above Kobe?

[Kobe187]

Jokic, Giannis, Luka need at least 3 rings; easier said than done. None will surpass the Black Mamba.

[One_and_Done]

why is James Harden not in the poll

I mean, I think Harden will surpass him if he hasn't already, but I only get 9 options.

[RHODEY]

Not a single one when it comes to WINNING.

[lakerz12]

Which will have 5 or more rings as the 1st or 2nd best player on the team?

[MGB8]

Jokic, Giannis, Luka need at least 3 rings; easier said than done. None will surpass the Black Mamba.

None played with Shaq or anything near a Shaq like player - where Shaq won a title without Kobe, not the other way around…. (I know, I know, later with Pau - but one was against a very meh Magic team, the other against the aging but still strong Cs… but never as strong as they were with prime Shaq).

[RHODEY]

Jokic, Giannis, Luka need at least 3 rings; easier said than done. None will surpass the Black Mamba.

None played with Shaq or anything near a Shaq like player - where Shaq won a title without Kobe, not the other way around….

Most don't have 2 rings without ring chasing(Durant) or playing with a GOAT (Duncan). Most don't play defense near Kobe's level. Most (if not all) did not have his level of leadership.

[One_and_Done]

Not a single one when it comes to WINNING.

Kobe's record in games without Shaq from 00-07 is 135-137. Kobe won because of great teams, he was a poor winner without a stacked deck.

[tsherkin]

Not a single one when it comes to WINNING.

Kobe's record in games without Shaq from 00-07 is 135-137. Kobe won because of great teams, he was a poor winner without a stacked deck.

Basically every player struggles to win on weak squads, man.

[One_and_Done]

Not a single one when it comes to WINNING.

Kobe's record in games without Shaq from 00-07 is 135-137. Kobe won because of great teams, he was a poor winner without a stacked deck.

Basically every player struggles to win on weak squads, man.

There's literally an active thread on 'greatest carry jobs' that proves that's not true. It's true of run of the mill stars, it shouldn't be true of supposedly top 15 all-time players.

[tsherkin]

Kobe's record in games without Shaq from 00-07 is 135-137. Kobe won because of great teams, he was a poor winner without a stacked deck.

Basically every player struggles to win on weak squads, man.

There's literally an active thread on 'greatest carry jobs' that proves that's not true. It's true of run of the mill stars, it shouldn't be true of supposedly top 15 all-time players.

How was Jordan's record in his first few years?

Also, account for team construction and how top heavy the Lakers were from 00-04 and how trash they were in 05 and 06.

[One_and_Done]

Basically every player struggles to win on weak squads, man.

There's literally an active thread on 'greatest carry jobs' that proves that's not true. It's true of run of the mill stars, it shouldn't be true of supposedly top 15 all-time players.

How was Jordan's record in his first few years?

Also, account for team construction and how top heavy the Lakers were from 00-04 and how trash they were in 05 and 06.

It's a poor argument to ask how a guy was at carrying teams as a rookie. The test is whether they showed they could do it, not that they did it every single year regardless of circumstances. Not only did Kobe not show he could do it, I'd say he showed pretty conclusively he couldn't.

Shaq had the 'top heavy' Lakers playing at a 60+ win pace in games Kobe missed. The 05 Lakers were also far from trash.

[Kobe187]

Jokic, Giannis, Luka need at least 3 rings; easier said than done. None will surpass the Black Mamba.

None played with Shaq or anything near a Shaq like player - where Shaq won a title without Kobe, not the other way around

Lol 3 consecutive finals and back to back championships without Shaq, he carried the Lakers from 07-10 and beat the 1st modern “Superteam” Celtics. Shaq couldn’t win in Orlando with Penny and a great supporting cast, Kobe was vital to the Lakers 3-peat, was amazing. From 06-10 he was the best player in the league and it wasn’t even close.

[tsherkin]

It's a poor argument to ask how a guy was at carrying teams as a rookie

I didn't confine my remark to his rookie season.

The test is whether they showed they could do it, not that they did it every single year regardless of circumstances. Not only did Kobe not show he could do it, I'd say he showed pretty conclusively he couldn't.

No, that isn't what happened. What happened was that they were built around a 28/12/3 guy who led the league in FG% in an offense built around the post, and with no tertiary scoring support besides catch-and-shoot guys, and they struggled when that was removed.

The 05 Lakers were also far from trash.

Worst defense in the league, with Lamar Odom and Caron Butler as his next major scoring weapons? No bench? Starting Chris Mihm? Starting Jumaine Jones a quarter of the year? The carcass of Brian Grant their best bench player? Try again.

[One_and_Done]

It's a poor argument to ask how a guy was at carrying teams as a rookie

I didn't confine my remark to his rookie season.

Yeh, you also included the year he played 18 games. I wasn't terribly moved to respond to that year.

I didn't ask what their advanced stats were, individually or as a team, I asked how the team did. The answer is badly with Kobe, but contention pace with just Shaq.

The 2005 Lakers had Chucky Atkins, who started for a playoff team the previous year, Odom, C.Butler, and Mihm. That was far from a garbage team. Mihm was a solid 5 man before he got hurt, Butler was above average for his position. Yes, Odom got hurt, but it was clear the team wasn't even making the playoffs even if he was healthy.

[tsherkin]

Yeh, you also included the year he played 18 games. I wasn't terribly moved to respond to that year.

And the year after when he played 82 and they still only won 40 games...

The 2005 Lakers had Chucky Atkins, who started for a playoff team the previous year, Odom, C.Butler, and Mihm. That was far from a garbage team. Mihm was a solid 5 man before he got hurt, Butler was above average for his position. Yes, Odom got hurt, but it was clear the team wasn't even making the playoffs even if he was healthy.

This is definitely wrong. They didn't have sufficient scoring support and they were HORRIFIC on defense. AND Odom was hurt. They were garbage.

[One_and_Done]

Yeh, you also included the year he played 18 games. I wasn't terribly moved to respond to that year.

And the year after when he played 82 and they still only won 40 games...

The 2005 Lakers had Chucky Atkins, who started for a playoff team the previous year, Odom, C.Butler, and Mihm. That was far from a garbage team. Mihm was a solid 5 man before he got hurt, Butler was above average for his position. Yes, Odom got hurt, but it was clear the team wasn't even making the playoffs even if he was healthy.

This is definitely wrong. They didn't have sufficient scoring support and they were HORRIFIC on defense. AND Odom was hurt. They were garbage.

I've broken this down before. The team was not making the playoffs with or without Odom's injury.

[tsherkin]

I've broken this down before. The team was not making the playoffs with or without Odom's injury.

That part, I agree with.

[One_and_Done]

Jokic, Giannis, Luka need at least 3 rings; easier said than done. None will surpass the Black Mamba.

How many rings you have doesn't correlate to how great a player you are. Havlicek has more rings than Kobe, is he greater than Kobe?

[Werdiknight]

Maybe Jokic, but that is still a maybe for me. It still needs to be seen what the Joker can achieve in his remaining years. Don't see anyone else even close to Kobe (and that's not because I see Kobe somewhere in the Top 5 like some do - those players listed here just don't come close in terms of franchise building blocks for the most part, they are good to great - but not anything close to legandary level like Kobe was).

[bledredwine]

Wow, these players sure have been passing up Kobe! Impressive!