RGM GOAT Debate Thread

[bkkrh]

Bulls lose Grant after 93/94
They obtain Kukoc 94/95. Kukoc isnt Grant defensively and on the boards but he helps them with shooting, scoring, and playmaking. But they are still a .500 team with Pippen/Kukoc. They would have been a top team in the east 94/95 with a full season of Jordan on the team.

Sorry but i disagree, they dont 3 peat without Jordan. 98 Bulls especially, they were old, injured, and Rodman was a distraction.

Kukoc was on the 93/94 roster as well, it was his rookie season. And he wasn´t a player you could fully play at PF during that period.

Yes of course, if you add Jordan to that roster it is a better team. My point was replace Jordan with Pippen and leave everything else as it is, they still won´t be a contender. Give Pippen Rodman and a player that is also an All Defense 1st/All NBA 1st Player as he and Jordan were, they might also 3 peat.

Forgot your other point. Pippen, Rodman, and another all defense/all nba player completing a 3 peat? I dont know maybe, but we do know that Jordan, Pippen, and Rodman won 3 in a row. Seems like you are trying to minimize Jordans importance for those Bulls teams for some reason. Jordan pretty much carried them in game 6 of the 98 finals with Pippen struggling with injury. Pippen also missed half the season. He was never the same after his back went out.

No, I don´t want to minimize Jordan´s importance at all. I definitely see him as by far the best player of his era and as GOAT in general. It was more pointing out that Jordan and Pippen did both something on a regular basis that besides them only 3 players were able to accomplish during that period, as mentioned David Robinson, Olajuwon and in the later seasons of the 90s Gary Payton. So in an alternative reality where Jordan stays retired and the Bulls somehow manage to land one of those players and Rodman instead of him I still see it as possible that they have a similar level of success. I see them still clearly ahead of the Sonics and Jazz (well the Sonics wouldn´t make the finals anyhow in case of the Payton to Bulls scenario).

Related to Pippen's injury (and also the contract situation), I looked at it just from a talent/skill related level. Games would of course have a different outcome and the team would play in a different way, so I didn't factor in actual injuries. Otherwise they would also have a problem in 96/97 if David Robinson is on their team.

[MavsDirk41]

Kukoc was on the 93/94 roster as well, it was his rookie season. And he wasn´t a player you could fully play at PF during that period.

Yes of course, if you add Jordan to that roster it is a better team. My point was replace Jordan with Pippen and leave everything else as it is, they still won´t be a contender. Give Pippen Rodman and a player that is also an All Defense 1st/All NBA 1st Player as he and Jordan were, they might also 3 peat.

Yea you are right about Kukoc on the 93/94 Bulls. My bad on that. Kukoc was a 6’10” wing who was best operating on the perimeter. He wasnt a power forward like Grant. But the Bulls tried to supplement the loss of Grant with Kukoc.

Are you saying no Pippen but Jordan on the 94/95 Bulls roster? Well yea they needed both Jordan and Pippen to win a championship. I cant think of any player in nba history who won a championship without help. If you know of one that did, let me know lol

Yes exactly. And I agree with you, that was my point. I understood your original post kinda as you meaning Jordan was the only reason the Bulls weren´t a contender and the Pippen 3 peat part in a way that Jordan would be able to do that. But yes, then we are on the same page, because I see Basketball at a teamsport and think that there is often too much of a focus on a single player. Since you asked, I think your user name might be the player that won the title with the least help .

Dirk is the man! Spent 20 years with the Mavs. Never publicly complained about anything. Has always contributed to the community. And what is not mentioned enough is that the Mavs won 50 plus games for 11 straight seasons with Dirk being the constant player in the lineup. He is underrated on here at times i think

[The Real Dalic]

I feel like the OP is a LeBron fan in disguise. Everyone knows the answer to this is a player like LeBron, Magic, Paul, or Nash. This has to be his way to discredit Jordan to give LeBron another feather in his cap towards GOAT status.

You should try reading the first post in a thread if you're going to reply to it. I literally said in the first post that this isn't about getting assists or directly helping on the court.

I did. All of those things point towards LeBron. LeBron might be the best floor raiser in the history of the game. I think Jordan is still the GOAT, but he was not a great locker room guy. LeBron makes you better on the court and is mostly a good locker room guy. He clearly has players he doesn't like and makes it pretty known. But Jordan straight up fought with people.

[MavsDirk41]

Kukoc was on the 93/94 roster as well, it was his rookie season. And he wasn´t a player you could fully play at PF during that period.

Yes of course, if you add Jordan to that roster it is a better team. My point was replace Jordan with Pippen and leave everything else as it is, they still won´t be a contender. Give Pippen Rodman and a player that is also an All Defense 1st/All NBA 1st Player as he and Jordan were, they might also 3 peat.

Forgot your other point. Pippen, Rodman, and another all defense/all nba player completing a 3 peat? I dont know maybe, but we do know that Jordan, Pippen, and Rodman won 3 in a row. Seems like you are trying to minimize Jordans importance for those Bulls teams for some reason. Jordan pretty much carried them in game 6 of the 98 finals with Pippen struggling with injury. Pippen also missed half the season. He was never the same after his back went out.

No, I don´t want to minimize Jordan´s importance at all. I definitely see him as by far the best player of his era and as GOAT in general. It was more pointing out that Jordan and Pippen did both something on a regular basis that besides them only 3 players were able to accomplish during that period, as mentioned David Robinson, Olajuwon and in the later seasons of the 90s Gary Payton. So in an alternative reality where Jordan stays retired and the Bulls somehow manage to land one of those players and Rodman instead of him I still see it as possible that they have a similar level of success. I see them still clearly ahead of the Sonics and Jazz (well the Sonics wouldn´t make the finals anyhow in case of the Payton to Bulls scenario).

Related to Pippen's injury (and also the contract situation), I looked at it just from a talent/skill related level. Games would of course have a different outcome and the team would play in a different way, so I didn't factor in actual injuries. Otherwise they would also have a problem in 96/97 if David Robinson is on their team.

I dont think a combo of Pippen, Rodman, and Payton win 3 in a row. A contender? Probably but Pippen couldnt carry the scoring load like a Jordan could. I think replacing Jordan with Payton is a huge drop off in talent although the glove was awesome. Robinson? That would be interesting but still too big a talent descrepancy. The Dream, Pippen, and Rodman? That would have been the best bet of those 3 as Hakeem was dominate as hell. Not sure they win 3 in a row but it would have been entertaining to watch.

[bkkrh]

Forgot your other point. Pippen, Rodman, and another all defense/all nba player completing a 3 peat? I dont know maybe, but we do know that Jordan, Pippen, and Rodman won 3 in a row. Seems like you are trying to minimize Jordans importance for those Bulls teams for some reason. Jordan pretty much carried them in game 6 of the 98 finals with Pippen struggling with injury. Pippen also missed half the season. He was never the same after his back went out.

No, I don´t want to minimize Jordan´s importance at all. I definitely see him as by far the best player of his era and as GOAT in general. It was more pointing out that Jordan and Pippen did both something on a regular basis that besides them only 3 players were able to accomplish during that period, as mentioned David Robinson, Olajuwon and in the later seasons of the 90s Gary Payton. So in an alternative reality where Jordan stays retired and the Bulls somehow manage to land one of those players and Rodman instead of him I still see it as possible that they have a similar level of success. I see them still clearly ahead of the Sonics and Jazz (well the Sonics wouldn´t make the finals anyhow in case of the Payton to Bulls scenario).

Related to Pippen's injury (and also the contract situation), I looked at it just from a talent/skill related level. Games would of course have a different outcome and the team would play in a different way, so I didn't factor in actual injuries. Otherwise they would also have a problem in 96/97 if David Robinson is on their team.

I dont think a combo of Pippen, Rodman, and Payton win 3 in a row. A contender? Probably but Pippen couldnt carry the scoring load like a Jordan could. I think replacing Jordan with Payton is a huge drop off in talent although the glove was awesome. Robinson? That would be interesting but still too big a talent descrepancy. The Dream, Pippen, and Rodman? That would have been the best bet of those 3 as Hakeem was dominate as hell. Not sure they win 3 in a row but it would have been entertaining to watch.

Yeah, I have it in that order as well, Payton, Pippen and Rodman seem like the least likely ones, but 1-2 titles should still be possible. There it would have really depended mostly on the Playoff matchups.

[Hellcrooner]

.92-93 :57-25
93-94 : 55-27

Two wins.
Thas how much better jordan made his teamates.

Oh yeah, aND REFS HAD TO ROB BLIND THE BULLS VS THE KNICKS otherwise they would have reached the finals ( i guess they would have lost with rockets but whatever).

How were the Bulls looking in 94/95 before he came back out of retirement? Pretty sure they were 34-31. Pretty sure they finished 13-4 after he joined them that year. Correct me if im wrong.

And im sure Pippen leads them to a second 3 peat if Jordan never came back out of retirement right?

im pretty sure MAgic handed their asses to them with JORDAN.

[bkkrh]

Yea you are right about Kukoc on the 93/94 Bulls. My bad on that. Kukoc was a 6’10” wing who was best operating on the perimeter. He wasnt a power forward like Grant. But the Bulls tried to supplement the loss of Grant with Kukoc.

Are you saying no Pippen but Jordan on the 94/95 Bulls roster? Well yea they needed both Jordan and Pippen to win a championship. I cant think of any player in nba history who won a championship without help. If you know of one that did, let me know lol

Yes exactly. And I agree with you, that was my point. I understood your original post kinda as you meaning Jordan was the only reason the Bulls weren´t a contender and the Pippen 3 peat part in a way that Jordan would be able to do that. But yes, then we are on the same page, because I see Basketball at a teamsport and think that there is often too much of a focus on a single player. Since you asked, I think your user name might be the player that won the title with the least help .

Dirk is the man! Spent 20 years with the Mavs. Never publicly complained about anything. Has always contributed to the community. And what is not mentioned enough is that the Mavs won 50 plus games for 11 straight seasons with Dirk being the constant player in the lineup. He is underrated on here at times i think

Yeah, think so too. But I'm a bit biased when it comes to him, he's 4 years older than me and grew up about 100km away from my hometown, so I was kinda living my NBA dream through him .

[MavsDirk41]

.92-93 :57-25
93-94 : 55-27

Two wins.
Thas how much better jordan made his teamates.

Oh yeah, aND REFS HAD TO ROB BLIND THE BULLS VS THE KNICKS otherwise they would have reached the finals ( i guess they would have lost with rockets but whatever).

How were the Bulls looking in 94/95 before he came back out of retirement? Pretty sure they were 34-31. Pretty sure they finished 13-4 after he joined them that year. Correct me if im wrong.

And im sure Pippen leads them to a second 3 peat if Jordan never came back out of retirement right?

im pretty sure MAgic handed their asses to them with JORDAN.

Yea and pretty sure the Bulls swept them the next season before beating Seattle in the finals. Pretty sure the Bulls went 72-10 the next season too. How did the finals turn out for the Magic in 95?

[MavsDirk41]

Yes exactly. And I agree with you, that was my point. I understood your original post kinda as you meaning Jordan was the only reason the Bulls weren´t a contender and the Pippen 3 peat part in a way that Jordan would be able to do that. But yes, then we are on the same page, because I see Basketball at a teamsport and think that there is often too much of a focus on a single player. Since you asked, I think your user name might be the player that won the title with the least help .

Dirk is the man! Spent 20 years with the Mavs. Never publicly complained about anything. Has always contributed to the community. And what is not mentioned enough is that the Mavs won 50 plus games for 11 straight seasons with Dirk being the constant player in the lineup. He is underrated on here at times i think

Yeah, think so too. But I'm a bit biased when it comes to him, he's 4 years older than me and grew up about 100km away from my hometown, so I was kinda living my NBA dream through him .

Well he is a legend in DFW. One of the most loved athletes of all time here. People really do admire him for his loyalty to the franchise. And he deserves every bit of it.

[Hair Jordan]

How can anyone vote for Kobe when he’s a homeless man’s Jordan at best? Jordan crushes him in every way; raw stats, advanced metrics, individual accolades, team accomplishments, titles, repeats, 3-peats etc. I get that Kobe might be someone’s favorite player but GOAT? C’mon now.

[Homer38]

How were the Bulls looking in 94/95 before he came back out of retirement? Pretty sure they were 34-31. Pretty sure they finished 13-4 after he joined them that year. Correct me if im wrong.

And im sure Pippen leads them to a second 3 peat if Jordan never came back out of retirement right?

im pretty sure MAgic handed their asses to them with JORDAN.

Yea and pretty sure the Bulls swept them the next season before beating Seattle in the finals. Pretty sure the Bulls went 72-10 the next season too. How did the finals turn out for the Magic in 95?

The Bulls added Rodman which was a huge reason for their win vs Seattle in game 2 and 6(He had like 10 offensive rebounds in both of those game I believe)....Also against Orlando, Grant was injured in game 1 and the magic had no one to replace him...One team adds Rodman and the other loses Grant and that makes a major difference

[bledredwine]

If you look at the average assists per game,LBJ is still higher for any not PG of all-time

That’s because his APG totals have been cooked for his entire career. He’s credited with 2-3 phantom assists almost every game. His career average should be closer to 5 APG instead of 7+. Lebron would get credited for an assist if he inbounded the ball to a teammate who sank a full court heave two seconds before the halftime buzzer.

yea of course and same goes for his rings, phantom championships that he just gets given. In reality jordan won all these and hes still winning every ring to this day. idk why these other dumb fans dont see it.right?

If we're being honest, Lebron choked away one ring and absolutely 2 rings if not for Ray Allen and Chris Bosh's rebound/3 to save the series from immediate loss.

Kobe and Jordan never put their teams in that position.

[HMFFL]

im pretty sure MAgic handed their asses to them with JORDAN.

Yea and pretty sure the Bulls swept them the next season before beating Seattle in the finals. Pretty sure the Bulls went 72-10 the next season too. How did the finals turn out for the Magic in 95?

The Bulls added Rodman which was a huge reason for their win vs Seattle in game 2 and 6(He had like 10 offensive rebounds in both of those game I believe)....Also against Orlando, Grant was injured in game 1 and the magic had no one to replace him...One team adds Rodman and the other loses Grant and that makes a major difference

Are you even taking into account the headcase Rodman was? While he was one of my favorite players he was also a negative as much as he was a positive. Plenty of people downplaying the greatness of Jordan in this thread.

Sent from my SM-S928U1 using RealGM Forums mobile app

[bledredwine]

Yea and pretty sure the Bulls swept them the next season before beating Seattle in the finals. Pretty sure the Bulls went 72-10 the next season too. How did the finals turn out for the Magic in 95?

The Bulls added Rodman which was a huge reason for their win vs Seattle in game 2 and 6(He had like 10 offensive rebounds in both of those game I believe)....Also against Orlando, Grant was injured in game 1 and the magic had no one to replace him...One team adds Rodman and the other loses Grant and that makes a major difference

Are you even taking into account the headcase Rodman was? While he was one of my favorite players he was also a negative as much as he was a positive. Plenty of people downplaying the greatness of Jordan in this thread.

Sent from my SM-S928U1 using RealGM Forums mobile app

Nothing new - It seems that almost no one here actually followed as a fan and is aware that Rodman was literally an offensive liability every game. I haven't seen that mentioned even once.

But us Bulls fans remember this vividly. Everyone else is just changing the narrative to whatever they like.
Whatever it takes to falsely prop up their favorite players, I guess.

Apparently, they know the Bulls players better than we do. Everyone here is an avid Horace Grant, Dennis Rodman and Toni Kukoc fan. Wild coincidence.

[ScrantonBulls]

The Bulls added Rodman which was a huge reason for their win vs Seattle in game 2 and 6(He had like 10 offensive rebounds in both of those game I believe)....Also against Orlando, Grant was injured in game 1 and the magic had no one to replace him...One team adds Rodman and the other loses Grant and that makes a major difference

Are you even taking into account the headcase Rodman was? While he was one of my favorite players he was also a negative as much as he was a positive. Plenty of people downplaying the greatness of Jordan in this thread.

Sent from my SM-S928U1 using RealGM Forums mobile app

Nothing new - It seems that almost no one here actually followed as a fan and is aware that Rodman was literally an offensive liability every game. I haven't seen that mentioned even once.

But us Bulls fans remember this vividly. Everyone else is just changing the narrative to whatever they like.
Whatever it takes to falsely prop up their favorite players, I guess.

Apparently, they know the Bulls players better than we do. Everyone here is an avid Horace Grant, Dennis Rodman and Toni Kukoc fan. Wild coincidence.

This. No former superstar gets disrespected as much as MJ does. It's comical at this point.

[B-Mitch 30]

My hot take about all of this is that MJ wasn't a leader on par with Magic, Bill, or Duncan, but by the time of the two three-peats, he was one of the best leaders in the league. Yes, he was a jerk off at times, there's no denying that, but I don't think he was fundamentally a bad person, and many of his fellow Bulls have spoken of their respect for him and vice versa. On a more tangible level, despite sometimes being called a ball hog, he was a willing and unselfish passer from the start of his pro career.

[bkkrh]

Are you even taking into account the headcase Rodman was? While he was one of my favorite players he was also a negative as much as he was a positive. Plenty of people downplaying the greatness of Jordan in this thread.

Sent from my SM-S928U1 using RealGM Forums mobile app

Nothing new - It seems that almost no one here actually followed as a fan and is aware that Rodman was literally an offensive liability every game. I haven't seen that mentioned even once.

But us Bulls fans remember this vividly. Everyone else is just changing the narrative to whatever they like.
Whatever it takes to falsely prop up their favorite players, I guess.

Apparently, they know the Bulls players better than we do. Everyone here is an avid Horace Grant, Dennis Rodman and Toni Kukoc fan. Wild coincidence.

This. No former superstar gets disrespected as much as MJ does. It's comical at this point.

Ok, so you started this thread with the question if anyone made their team mates better than Jordan. Now you are agreeing that everybody here is basically overrating every decent player that Jordan ever played with. So what is it now? Did he make his team mates better, or did he carry his team mates that were liabilities?

[bledredwine]

Nothing new - It seems that almost no one here actually followed as a fan and is aware that Rodman was literally an offensive liability every game. I haven't seen that mentioned even once.

But us Bulls fans remember this vividly. Everyone else is just changing the narrative to whatever they like.
Whatever it takes to falsely prop up their favorite players, I guess.

Apparently, they know the Bulls players better than we do. Everyone here is an avid Horace Grant, Dennis Rodman and Toni Kukoc fan. Wild coincidence.

This. No former superstar gets disrespected as much as MJ does. It's comical at this point.

Ok, so you started this thread with the question if anyone made their team mates better than Jordan. Now you are agreeing that everybody here is basically overrating every decent player that Jordan ever played with. So what is it now? Did he make his team mates better, or did he carry his team mates that were liabilities?

What? Both points didn't make sense.

First, check the OP. I didn't post this thread.

You (guys) overrate his teammates with your own agenda and yes, he obviously helped that squad develop.

Both of those can be true simultaneously.

[BobbyPortisEyes]

How would we know? It's obvious. There's plenty of stories

Brilliant way to start off an argument

At the end of the day it's all stories when it comes to the Lebron vs. Jordan debate, some people prefer the Jordan story and some prefer the Lebron story.

[bkkrh]

This. No former superstar gets disrespected as much as MJ does. It's comical at this point.

Ok, so you started this thread with the question if anyone made their team mates better than Jordan. Now you are agreeing that everybody here is basically overrating every decent player that Jordan ever played with. So what is it now? Did he make his team mates better, or did he carry his team mates that were liabilities?

What? Both points didn't make sense.

First, check the OP. I didn't post this thread.

You (guys) overrate his teammates with your own agenda and yes, he obviously helped that squad develop.

Both of those can be true simultaneously.

I quoted ScrantonBulls, who had quoted you. ScrantonBulls statement in the original post was that no player ever had as much off the court impact than MJ on his team mates. Myself and I guess almost nobody in this thread is questioning that he had an impact on player development, but disagree with the GOAT in that area part. Especially if OP is also agreeing now that we are overvalueing the players he played with. So on one side nobody had as much impact as him on the development of his team mates, but in the end they still weren't really that good? That's pretty contradictive.