RGM GOAT Debate Thread

[spree8]

Probably never imo. Bar is just way too high

[bledredwine]

LeBron will be considered better by a decent percentage of people when he retires. I think it could very easily be another 20-30 years before someone on par with MJ and LeBron rolls around.

Other way around

A modern player's legacy declines after he retires. Kobe was considered 2nd by many on these forums and in the world.
Now he's barely top 10.

Lebron's 40 and still hasn't been close in the polls, despite still playing. Achievements and advanced stats heavily favor Jordan, longevity Lebron. But this isn't a Jordan Lebron thread so can we just not turn it into one?

The common answer is Jordan is the GOAT, in polls, in mass media, everywhere. Hence the thread.

[Packbuckman]

This feels like a bait thread, but I'll answer that it already has happened.

Definitely a bait thread. Even if you don't think Lebron is the GOAT, I don't know how anyone can deny he has set the bar. I think of Jordan as a legend, but Lebron is the NBA GOAT.

That is your opinion but not the majority if there is a poll it would be Jordan. I think Kareem is right there too he won 3 college championships imagine him coming in as a 18 yr old glad it didn’t happen then he wouldn’t have been drafted by my Bucks lol

[JRoy]

I disagree with the premise that Jordan is the GOAT.

[bledredwine]

Anyway, to answer,

It's hard to say.

Someone has to come along and really transform the league, shake it up.
Other teams will have to raise to that player's level and make adjustments.

We will see.

IMO, there will be someone who's really in contention but it won't be a clear cut answer.... before I'm gone.


But no folks, it's not going to be the "next Lebron" we constantly compare in 10 or 20 years

[Rust_Cohle]

LeBron will be considered better by a decent percentage of people when he retires. I think it could very easily be another 20-30 years before someone on par with MJ and LeBron rolls around.

Very doubtful, 6 titles in 8 years, LeBron will be remembered more as a runner up and unfortunate to go up against the greatest team ever

[MrBigShot]

LeBron will be considered better by a decent percentage of people when he retires. I think it could very easily be another 20-30 years before someone on par with MJ and LeBron rolls around.

Other way around

A modern player's legacy declines after he retires. Kobe was considered 2nd by many on these forums and in the world.
Now he's barely top 10.

Lebron's 40 and still hasn't been close in the polls, despite still playing. Achievements and advanced stats heavily favor Jordan, longevity Lebron. But this isn't a Jordan Lebron thread so can we just not turn it into one?

The common answer is Jordan is the GOAT, in polls, in mass media, everywhere. Hence the thread.

MJ is and will continue to be the consensus GOAT, but make no mistake, there are a decent amount of people that consider LeBron to better. And the reasonable ones that don't, usually have him in their top 3. He's got a better argument for GOAT than anyone outside of MJ. Nobody else has the combination of peak + longevity (Kareem included)

I loved Kobe and he was one a kind, but with the advent of advanced stats he was never realistically going to be considered 2nd all time

[bledredwine]

LeBron will be considered better by a decent percentage of people when he retires. I think it could very easily be another 20-30 years before someone on par with MJ and LeBron rolls around.

Other way around

A modern player's legacy declines after he retires. Kobe was considered 2nd by many on these forums and in the world.
Now he's barely top 10.

Lebron's 40 and still hasn't been close in the polls, despite still playing. Achievements and advanced stats heavily favor Jordan, longevity Lebron. But this isn't a Jordan Lebron thread so can we just not turn it into one?

The common answer is Jordan is the GOAT, in polls, in mass media, everywhere. Hence the thread.

MJ is and will continue to be the consensus GOAT, but make no mistake, there are a decent amount of people that consider LeBron to better. And the reasonable ones that don't, usually have him in their top 3. He's got a better argument for GOAT than anyone outside of MJ. Nobody else has the combination of peak + longevity (Kareem included)

I loved Kobe and he was one a kind, but with the advent of advanced stats he was never realistically going to be considered 2nd all time

I can't agree with Lebron having a clear better case for number 2 than anyone when you have Kareem in the picture.
He had a high impact on both ends of the court, more achievements, and had such great control of the game, just like Jordan, or
Lebron for that matter.

Otherwise, all-around, sure. But I'm being sincere- when I watch them both, it's fairly clear to me that Lebron has too many holes/vulnerabilities in his game, as great of an all-around player as he is and that Jordan has another level that Lebron just hasn't achieved. Lebron's 50 point finals game is the first time Lebron made me think "Ah, this is like Jordan-level dominance" and I was really impressed. Frankly, he's just unable to do that if needed.

I think that many confuse Point-scorer duties and stats with how dominant a player is. Lebron is the most dominant of this generation, no question, but is very inconsistent as a shooter, which is important. The .370 (.310'ish in the playoffs, ) midrange percentage is really bad, as is the clutch shooting (my sig has gotten much worse since I wrote it).

For me, Lebron shines in consistent impact, floor raising, and longevity- not ceiling raising or always being able to get a bucket on command to the point of MJ/Kareem. I rank his peak top 7 (Jordan/Kareem/Wilt/Bird/Shaq/Kareem/Lebron), longevity number 1, but as a ceiling raiser, I rate him fairly low in the top ten and that's important to me. It's also hard to judge his team achievements, given the teaming up and the fact that he lost one and nearly a second squarely because of how he played (referring to Allen's 3 to save him from elimination in the finals).

As great as Rose was that year, we knew that he couldn’t take on three stars in their prime.

[MavsDirk41]

Well in the second season they also had lost Horace Grant and got no replacement for him. Horace Grant then went on to average 18 points amd 11 rebounds on 65 FG Percentage against them in the Playoffs. So yes, they couldn't compensate to lose their best and 3rd best player from their first 3 peat and were accordingly a low playoff seat.

Pippen doesn't lead the Bulls to a 2nd 3 peat with Kukoc and BJ Armstrong as their 2nd and 3rd best player. Neither does Jordan, he also needed Pippen and Rodman for that. If you give Pippen Rodman and another player that is a constant All NBA 1st and All Defense 1st player as Jordan had in him (which at that time means Olajuwon, David Robinson, or Gary Payton) it's not that unrealistic to assume he wins 2-3 in a row.

Bulls lose Grant after 93/94
They obtain Kukoc 94/95. Kukoc isnt Grant defensively and on the boards but he helps them with shooting, scoring, and playmaking. But they are still a .500 team with Pippen/Kukoc. They would have been a top team in the east 94/95 with a full season of Jordan on the team.

Sorry but i disagree, they dont 3 peat without Jordan. 98 Bulls especially, they were old, injured, and Rodman was a distraction.

Toni was already on the team in 93/94 and played in 75 games in a good sized role.

Yea i was wrong on that, got my years mixed up lol! I didnt see the game but pretty sure that was the year Jackson drew up a play for Kukoc and Pippen was pissed and refused the enter the game.

[AussieBuck]

I dunno if it's cult like fandom that is the dominant issue or just a real lack of life experience and empathy but what people sometimes think leadership to be is just bewildering.

[NbaAllDay]

Well this one backfired.

Better blame it on the Lebron stans.

[Wingy]

Well this one backfired.

Better blame it on the Lebron stans.

Nope. This went exactly as planned.

Despite the handle, the OP is a Lebron stan.

Since he can no longer create a new stupid GOAT thread every other day, he extracted a pro-Jordan person’s post from the stickied GOAT thread to score a point against his foe.

The quoted post someone’s trying to make for Jordan is indeed a silly point given no one has any idea. Not even the likes of Phil, or Spo, or Pop, or Auerbach know….cause they don’t see innumerable guys practice and see what they do for their teammates. There are so many reasons it makes zero sense, there’s no need to go on.

This thread is trash. ScrantonBulls (Lebron fan) and Hair Jordan (MJ guy) should be locked in their own forum w/each other for eternity.

[Onlytimewilltel]

Well this one backfired.

Better blame it on the Lebron stans.

Nope. This went exactly as planned.

Despite the handle, the OP is a Lebron stan.

Since he can no longer create a new stupid GOAT thread every other day, he extracted a pro-Jordan person’s post from the stickied GOAT thread to score a point against his foe.

The quoted post someone’s trying to make for Jordan is indeed a silly point given no one has any idea. Not even the likes of Phil, or Spo, or Pop, or Auerbach know….cause they don’t see innumerable guys practice and see what they do for their teammates. There are so many reasons it makes zero sense, there’s no need to go on.

This thread is trash. ScrantonBulls (Lebron fan) and Hair Jordan (MJ guy) should be locked in their own forum w/each other for eternity.

Basically this. Lebron nuthugger quoting ridiculous quotes from Jordan nuthuggers knowing damn well he’s going to set it off in here. So tiring and predictable

[sjballer03]

Kobe Bryant

This is the only answer. Another way to frame this question is to figure out which all time great would make a good coach. I don't think MJ, Lebron, Shaq, etc truly cared as much as Kobe did. On top of that, Kobe was a true student of the game. The sad truth to this is that Kobe would have been a fairly decent coach if it ever came down to it, but we will never know.

[Lalouie]

LeBron

Jr?

[dhsilv2]

Bulls lose Grant after 93/94
They obtain Kukoc 94/95. Kukoc isnt Grant defensively and on the boards but he helps them with shooting, scoring, and playmaking. But they are still a .500 team with Pippen/Kukoc. They would have been a top team in the east 94/95 with a full season of Jordan on the team.

Sorry but i disagree, they dont 3 peat without Jordan. 98 Bulls especially, they were old, injured, and Rodman was a distraction.

Toni was already on the team in 93/94 and played in 75 games in a good sized role.

Yea i was wrong on that, got my years mixed up lol! I didnt see the game but pretty sure that was the year Jackson drew up a play for Kukoc and Pippen was pissed and refused the enter the game.

That was. Love Pippen but boy was that somewhat of a low point in his career and legacy. Seems he wanted to build his entire post playing career on similar negativity. Oh well

[SelfishPlayer]

B.J. Armstrong made his first and only All Star game the first season after Jordan left the team. That same season Pippen finished 3rd in MVP voting. Jordan DESTROYED #1 overall pick Kwame Brown..Jordan was in the way his entire career. That's the reality.

[JM00n69]

Jordan hands down the GOAT. Look at the accolades alone, Bron tried so hard to engineer his teams/coaches but still didn't get there. Anyone who was alive to see MJ wont vote for LBJ. The US has a me vs them problem, the new gen will vote for their hero

[JM00n69]

Kobe Bryant

This is the only answer. Another way to frame this question is to figure out which all time great would make a good coach. I don't think MJ, Lebron, Shaq, etc truly cared as much as Kobe did. On top of that, Kobe was a true student of the game. The sad truth to this is that Kobe would have been a fairly decent coach if it ever came down to it, but we will never know.

Kobe had the talent and physical skills to be good but without his relentless work ethic and mentality he would've been another borderline HOF player forgotten in a few years. Not seen anyone take the game as seriously as he did since MJ

[ScrantonBulls]

Well this one backfired.

Better blame it on the Lebron stans.

Nope. This went exactly as planned.

Despite the handle, the OP is a Lebron stan.

Since he can no longer create a new stupid GOAT thread every other day, he extracted a pro-Jordan person’s post from the stickied GOAT thread to score a point against his foe.

The quoted post someone’s trying to make for Jordan is indeed a silly point given no one has any idea. Not even the likes of Phil, or Spo, or Pop, or Auerbach know….cause they don’t see innumerable guys practice and see what they do for their teammates. There are so many reasons it makes zero sense, there’s no need to go on.

This thread is trash. ScrantonBulls (Lebron fan) and Hair Jordan (MJ guy) should be locked in their own forum w/each other for eternity.

Lmao what a joke. I quote somebody else's post (bledredwine) but somehow I'M the problem. Why aren't you crying about his posting?

"LeBron stans are so bad! Now they're posting things that MJ STANS SAID!1"