RGM GOAT Debate Thread

[tsherkin]

nah that's not how MVP is about...Let's be honest here, Draymond Green would avg the same number like Lebron in these Olympics but he would never be considered MVP. MVP is narrative based and Lebron happens to be on the right side all the time.

No, Draymond would not have done what Lebron did in the Olympics. Remember, like I said, Lebron was shooting 66% from the field. He scored as much as he did because he was obliterating the defenses out there, but he wasn't forcing his shot, he was picking his spots much more and focusing on moving the ball around. His consistency, the breadth of his contribution, that was all much more important on the balance of the tournament. Or at least, a strong argument can be made for such. Steph had two incandescent shooting games and that's awesome, but that's not inherently more valuable than what Lebron was doing. You can make a reasonable MVP case for either, but to dismiss Lebron's case isn't really a legit position.

[PistolPeteJR]

Losing

until Kobe was able to join Team USA in 2008.

Truthfully, the Team USA career just solidifies that LBJ wasn't able to win it all unless he got his superteams.

So you’re saying LeBron at 20yo had no excuse but to win while having a 19yo Dwight Howard, a 21yo Chris Bosh, a 22yo Dwyane Wade, a 20yo Chris Paul, etc. The only player that was good that year alongside LeBron was Wade, who had just come off winning a championship and had no rest.

And you’re comparing that to a 2008 team with a much improved LeBron, a much improved Howard, much improved Wade, Paul, etc., along with Kobe, Kidd, Williams, etc.

Okay man, do you.

Well it does stick out... 2004 was basically the only time USA didn't get gold in basketball. It wouldn't have looked as bad if they didn't try to come back in the 2006 FIBA and avenge themselves. But they did, and lost again.

There really just isn't a good excuse for Team USA to lose, even if it isn't their 100% A team.

Oh okay so now you’re saying it’s a team thing. Good to know you’ve changed your tune.

[msmoore66]

At this point MJ is not just living rent free, he is collecting a lot of rent. Good terms on those leases.

[HMFFL]

The Olympics matter but are such a miniscule part of the GOAT argument. They shouldn't change anyone's opinion on who the GOAT is. Both sides do keep fishing though.

Yeah I agree but also winning with a Superteam the whole 90's with the best Point Forward Defender of all time doesn't really show greatness, especially while having the Greatest coach of all time

Hilarious take

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[zimpy27]

I think LeBron is the better basketball player. But it's not fair to make comparisons over Olympics. Hard enough to make comps over eras.

[Johnny Bball]

The Olympics matter but are such a miniscule part of the GOAT argument. They shouldn't change anyone's opinion on who the GOAT is. Both sides do keep fishing though.

Yeah I agree but also winning with a Superteam the whole 90's with the best Point Forward Defender of all time doesn't really show greatness, especially while having the Greatest coach of all time

Hilarious take

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Good to know we can just discount all those Lakers championships with that greatest coach as rubbish.

[cpower]

nah that's not how MVP is about...Let's be honest here, Draymond Green would avg the same number like Lebron in these Olympics but he would never be considered MVP. MVP is narrative based and Lebron happens to be on the right side all the time.

No, Draymond would not have done what Lebron did in the Olympics. Remember, like I said, Lebron was shooting 66% from the field. He scored as much as he did because he was obliterating the defenses out there, but he wasn't forcing his shot, he was picking his spots much more and focusing on moving the ball around. His consistency, the breadth of his contribution, that was all much more important on the balance of the tournament. Or at least, a strong argument can be made for such. Steph had two incandescent shooting games and that's awesome, but that's not inherently more valuable than what Lebron was doing. You can make a reasonable MVP case for either, but to dismiss Lebron's case isn't really a legit position.

Not to dismiss Lebron's contribution but I think Lebron is the best all around player, not necessary by default the MVP. I also think a MVP for USA team is pretty pointless as everyone pretty much sacrifice the stat for the better, and Lebron running the point is taking the least hit comparing to rest of the team. E.g. Curry could have taken more point and roll with KD and his stat would look better..

[NZB2323]

Do the Olympics count for NBA rankings?

Kareem and Wilt don’t have medals. Should they be ranked lower?

[tsherkin]

Not to dismiss Lebron's contribution but I think Lebron is the best all around player, not necessary by default the MVP.

Like I said, contesting the idea that Lebron was the MVP is one thing. Dismissing his candidacy, which some ITT have done, is an entirely separate animal. I don't particularly care about what didn't happen with how the team was arranged, however, since it didn't happen. So I don't consider what might have been with Steph taking a more on-ball role (which isn't really what skyrocketed him to prominence anyhow).

The point is more about recognizing that it's legit for Lebron to be the MVP, and that simultaneously, there is a compelling argument for Steph. Either way was appropriate.

[Stannis]

Oh okay so now you’re saying it’s a team thing. Good to know you’ve changed your tune.

Yeah, I just think if there was a GOAT on that roster, the team wouldn't have lost both in 2004 and 2006.

[Stannis]

Do the Olympics count for NBA rankings?

Kareem and Wilt don’t have medals. Should they be ranked lower?

I'm not sure.

But when discussing GOATs, is it the basketball GOAT or the NBA GOAT?

The Basketball Hall of Fame for example, is just that (the Hall of Fame of Basketball). AFIAK, there is not NBA Hall of Fame.

So I would think when ranking Basketball players, you would have to take in all their accolades from all domestic leagues and international play. The NBA is the most meaningful, because it still remains the most talented and competitive. But the others still matter (even if it's only by a little bit).

[Repeat 3-peat]

We counting Olympic medals now?


As ReddoverKobe would say "it's a cult"

[web123888]

Olympics mean nothing for NBA rankings all time. Even if it did, LeBron lost the most and proved he was the false and no true GOAT being absolutely CARRIED by a superior scorer and shooter in the close out game.

Jordan’s best offensive teammates was a 19 ppg mediocre shooting Pippen. LeBron has been carried by offensive juggernauts his entire career (Wade, Bosh, Kyrie, Love, Davis) and still has accomplished far less than Jordan despite playing far more.

LeBron is at best a distant 2nd all time but very easily could be argued outside the top 3.

[NyKnicks1714]

A player's legacy doesn't inherently decline or improve after they retire. The picture just becomes clearer, biases become weaker, and views can change as a result.

[Hair Jordan]

The Olympics matter but are such a miniscule part of the GOAT argument. They shouldn't change anyone's opinion on who the GOAT is. Both sides do keep fishing though.

Yeah I agree but also winning with a Superteam the whole 90's with the best Point Forward Defender of all time doesn't really show greatness, especially while having the Greatest coach of all time

Super team? The Bulls were Jordan and one other All Star in Pippen. Rodman wasn’t an All Star in Chicago and Phil Jackson was a nobody when he took over in 1989. Doug Collins took the Bulls to the ECF in ‘89. Phil happened to be the coach when Pippen and Grant matured. That’s what made them contenders.

[MrPainfulTruth]

Watch on YouTube

Agree with this guy? Yes or No? I think he is 100% right here.


Now I've heard it all. Lebron fans are beyond insane. And yes at this point Nick Wright is just a Lebron fan not a serious journalist.

Nick Wright literally said on TV that he is on contract with klutch. Alongside with an army of other media personalities.

GOATs dont need to do that in my opinion. You are being GOATed by the public, not by your own, paid yes men.

[ghillphx]

Watch on YouTube

Agree with this guy? Yes or No? I think he is 100% right here.


Now I've heard it all. Lebron fans are beyond insane. And yes at this point Nick Wright is just a Lebron fan not a serious journalist.

Sad to always be thinking, "who lost more" in terms of legacy. Constantly ruminating on this shi* is hilarious.

[HMFFL]

Yeah I agree but also winning with a Superteam the whole 90's with the best Point Forward Defender of all time doesn't really show greatness, especially while having the Greatest coach of all time

Hilarious take

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Good to know we can just discount all those Lakers championships with that greatest coach as rubbish.

A Coach is only as good as his players. With Phil we know the impact he made but he only coached two teams and he has Coached three top 15 players.

We know how poorly of an executive Phil Jackson was with New York after his Coaching days. He has a 90-171 record.

My response was directed at the fact that some people will use anything to discredit Jordan.





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[NO-KG-AI]

LeBron will be considered better by a decent percentage of people when he retires. I think it could very easily be another 20-30 years before someone on par with MJ and LeBron rolls around.

Other way around

A modern player's legacy declines after he retires. Kobe was considered 2nd by many on these forums and in the world.
Now he's barely top 10.

Lebron's 40 and still hasn't been close in the polls, despite still playing. Achievements and advanced stats heavily favor Jordan, longevity Lebron. But this isn't a Jordan Lebron thread so can we just not turn it into one?

The common answer is Jordan is the GOAT, in polls, in mass media, everywhere. Hence the thread.

No one had Kobe #2 when he retired. He was always in that 7-12 range. There was a certain section of NBA players that would call him the GOAT but that wasn't most people. Its only after he passed that people started putting him in the top 3.

NBA players are calling Paul George the GOAT now. Their opinion might have the least weight lmfao

[NZB2323]

Do the Olympics count for NBA rankings?

Kareem and Wilt don’t have medals. Should they be ranked lower?

I'm not sure.

But when discussing GOATs, is it the basketball GOAT or the NBA GOAT?

The Basketball Hall of Fame for example, is just that (the Hall of Fame of Basketball). AFIAK, there is not NBA Hall of Fame.

So I would think when ranking Basketball players, you would have to take in all their accolades from all domestic leagues and international play. The NBA is the most meaningful, because it still remains the most talented and competitive. But the others still matter (even if it's only by a little bit).

I guess if that’s the case then you can include NCAA achievements as well.