RGM GOAT Debate Thread

[Jcool0]

Other way around

A modern player's legacy declines after he retires. Kobe was considered 2nd by many on these forums and in the world.
Now he's barely top 10.

Lebron's 40 and still hasn't been close in the polls, despite still playing. Achievements and advanced stats heavily favor Jordan, longevity Lebron. But this isn't a Jordan Lebron thread so can we just not turn it into one?

The common answer is Jordan is the GOAT, in polls, in mass media, everywhere. Hence the thread.

No one had Kobe #2 when he retired. He was always in that 7-12 range. There was a certain section of NBA players that would call him the GOAT but that wasn't most people. Its only after he passed that people started putting him in the top 3.

During his prime, everyone here was declaring him 2 or GOAT. It was maddening.

Just one publication but:

Shaq was 4th. Tim Duncan was 8th. Kobe was 10th. LeBron James was 31st.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/slam_500_greatest.html

[guy1]

The Olympics matter but are such a miniscule part of the GOAT argument. They shouldn't change anyone's opinion on who the GOAT is. Both sides do keep fishing though.

It would have mattered a lot for Wemby. US players not so much.

Yeah, if this ever happens, I'm wondering how much it helps international players in future GOAT debates?

Hypothetically, if Wemby or Jokic only get 2-3 NBA rings, but they defeat a Team USA for Gold, would you say that Medal is worth as much as an NBA ring? More?

At the very least, it would've meant just as much, if not more. The only reason I'm not definitely saying more is because theoretically there should be more unpredictability that can happen in a 6 game tournament with 3 single game elimination rounds vs 4 best of 7 playoffs series, which is also just more of a grind. But there's also no dynasty in NBA history that has been remotely as dominant as USA basketball has been. It would've been an incredible accomplishment.

I've been saying that Embiid messed up. An Embiid/Wemby twin towers duo on France could've beaten this US team, especially in France. I'd probably give the US like a 55% chance (slightly above even). I don't think he'll ever win an NBA title, so a gold medal with France and beating the US would've been just as good for him. Winning a gold medal with the US doesn't really mean much more for him except to say he at least won something in his career. He took the easy way out.

[DimesandKnicks]

They had pretty much everyone else and had Toni Kukoc starting. Not sure he was that important to go from a #1 seed to #7.

He was the third best player, best post defender and best rebounder on that first three peat team. The fact that the team declined from the conference finals to fighting for a playoff spot demonstrates his value.

1995: Kokuc: 15.7 ppg 5.4 rebounds 4.6 assists 1.3 steals 0.2 blocks 4.3 BPM 4.1 VORP 19.8 PER DRtg 105 ORtg 118 WS 10

1994: Grant: 15.1 ppg 11 rebounds 3.4 assists 1.1 steals 1.2 blocks 4 BPM 3.9 VORP 19.8 PER DRtg 101 ORtg 117 WS 10

Different players, but played a similar role. Looks pretty even.

They played completely different roles and Kukoc was ON that 55 win team

[Jabroni Lames]

MJ played against international plumbers and firemen. And one of the best of them (Kukoc) was on his own team.

[guy1]

Listen I hate the LeBron Jordan debate and usually stay out of these threads but one thing always seems to be clear….

LeBron always has the most to lose in these situations but on the other hand, if he wins he doesn’t get the benefits of it. People are still bringing up 2004, an Olympics he barely even played in. If they would have lost this year, this would be a major stain on his legacy to a lot of people.

Now on the flip side, people will now say that this doesn’t mean much when comparing the two. But why not? If it would have been the end of the world if a 40 year old lost the Olympics, how come it’s not a major accomplishment if he won it and got MVP? It always seems that with some people, his failures don’t match what’s at stake for his successes

Pretty simple. If a no. 1 seed that was heavily favored to win the championship loses to an 8th seed in the first round, that team/best players on that team would take a huge hit to their legacy. If they won though, it doesn't do much of anything for them. Same logic applies here.

[Jcool0]

He was the third best player, best post defender and best rebounder on that first three peat team. The fact that the team declined from the conference finals to fighting for a playoff spot demonstrates his value.

1995: Kokuc: 15.7 ppg 5.4 rebounds 4.6 assists 1.3 steals 0.2 blocks 4.3 BPM 4.1 VORP 19.8 PER DRtg 105 ORtg 118 WS 10

1994: Grant: 15.1 ppg 11 rebounds 3.4 assists 1.1 steals 1.2 blocks 4 BPM 3.9 VORP 19.8 PER DRtg 101 ORtg 117 WS 10

Different players, but played a similar role. Looks pretty even.

They played completely different roles and Kukoc was ON that 55 win team

Yeah as a rookie from Europe coming off the bench. Not as a starter. They played similar roles as the #2 guy on the team.

[DimesandKnicks]

1995: Kokuc: 15.7 ppg 5.4 rebounds 4.6 assists 1.3 steals 0.2 blocks 4.3 BPM 4.1 VORP 19.8 PER DRtg 105 ORtg 118 WS 10

1994: Grant: 15.1 ppg 11 rebounds 3.4 assists 1.1 steals 1.2 blocks 4 BPM 3.9 VORP 19.8 PER DRtg 101 ORtg 117 WS 10

Different players, but played a similar role. Looks pretty even.

They played completely different roles and Kukoc was ON that 55 win team

Yeah as a rookie from Europe coming off the bench. Not as a starter. They played similar roles as the #2 guy on the team.

I think that’s beside the point. I’m talking about the make up of the entire team. Losing your best player and still making it to the conference finals means u have a pretty good team. Loosing your best and third best player and still competing for a playoff spot also illustrates how talent-rich those Bull’s rosters were

[Jcool0]

They played completely different roles and Kukoc was ON that 55 win team

Yeah as a rookie from Europe coming off the bench. Not as a starter. They played similar roles as the #2 guy on the team.

I think that’s beside the point. I’m talking about the make up of the entire team. Losing your best player and still making it to the conference finals means u have a pretty good team. Loosing your best and third best player and still competing for a playoff spot also illustrates how talent-rich those Bull’s rosters were

They lost to the Knicks in the Semifinals in 1994. Knicks played Indiana in the finals.

[DimesandKnicks]

Yeah as a rookie from Europe coming off the bench. Not as a starter. They played similar roles as the #2 guy on the team.

I think that’s beside the point. I’m talking about the make up of the entire team. Losing your best player and still making it to the conference finals means u have a pretty good team. Loosing your best and third best player and still competing for a playoff spot also illustrates how talent-rich those Bull’s rosters were

They lost to the Knicks in the Semifinals in 1994. Knicks played Indiana in the finals.

They lost to the eventual eastern conference champs in a 7 game series*

[Jcool0]

I think that’s beside the point. I’m talking about the make up of the entire team. Losing your best player and still making it to the conference finals means u have a pretty good team. Loosing your best and third best player and still competing for a playoff spot also illustrates how talent-rich those Bull’s rosters were

They lost to the Knicks in the Semifinals in 1994. Knicks played Indiana in the finals.

They lost to the eventual eastern conference champs in a 7 game series*

In that game 7 former Bull Charles Oakley had 20 rebounds. Horace Grant... 4.

[DimesandKnicks]

They lost to the Knicks in the Semifinals in 1994. Knicks played Indiana in the finals.

They lost to the eventual eastern conference champs in a 7 game series*

In that game 7 former Bull Charles Oakley had 20 rebounds. Horace Grant... 4.

Are you trying to make a point or just saying words?

[Aventador]

Nick Wright is a loser

[art_tatum]

Jordan's never got Olympics mvp or ist mvp.

[draftbarnes]

Read on Twitter

[Quattro]

So glad they pinned a GOAT thread to clean up the 100 threads a day on MJ vs LeBron.

[bledredwine]

No one had Kobe #2 when he retired. He was always in that 7-12 range. There was a certain section of NBA players that would call him the GOAT but that wasn't most people. Its only after he passed that people started putting him in the top 3.

During his prime, everyone here was declaring him 2 or GOAT. It was maddening.

Just one publication but:

Shaq was 4th. Tim Duncan was 8th. Kobe was 10th. LeBron James was 31st.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/slam_500_greatest.html

It's just as I had mentioned - a player's legacy goes downhill as he declines and especially after he retires.
What you posted is from 2011 as he was declining
It doesn't change the narrative, media or realgm during Kobe's prime though.

He was also considered better than Lebron until that started changing around 2010.

Watch on YouTube

I was here, in the same discussions that I still do with the Lebron comparisons. They were equally annoying, maybe
even more so.
I remember it well. I used to be on nba.com's forum back when they had it as well.

It was funny because I used to advocate for Lebron being better in 09 and all of the fans were still trying to say
"Kobe GOAT". It is what it is- the media is supposed to do this and will do this with the best player
in any generation. But I can't deny that Kobe was more impactful than his advanced stats show- he was
a great ceiling raiser.

I just did a google on "2009 best NBA players" and this pops up first thing
https://www.kidzworld.com/article/21934-nba-names-top-50-players-2009/

2009 GM voting by the way -

Who is the best perimeter defender in the NBA?

1. Kobe Bryant, L.A. Lakers – 34.5%
2. Shane Battier, Houston – 24.1%
3. Ron Artest, L.A. Lakers – 20.7%
4. Rajon Rondo – 6.9%

Which player is the best at getting his own shot?

1. Kobe Bryant, L.A. Lakers – 69.0%
2. LeBron James, Cleveland – 20.7%
3. Dwyane Wade, Miami – 10.3%

> Last year: Kobe Bryant – 81.5%

Which player is the most dangerous in the open floor?

1. LeBron James, Cleveland – 62.1%
2. Chris Paul, New Orleans – 17.2%
T-3. Steve Nash, Phoenix – 6.9%
T-3. Dwyane Wade, Miami – 6.9%

> Also receiving votes: Kobe Bryant, L.A. Lakers; Jason Kidd, Dallas

> Last year: LeBron James – 37.0%

Which player is the best finisher?

1. LeBron James, Cleveland – 55.2%
2. Dwyane Wade, Miami – 13.8%
3. Dwight Howard, Orlando – 10.3%
4. Kobe Bryant, L.A. Lakers – 6.9%

> Also receiving votes: Carlos Boozer, Utah; Manu Ginobili, San Antonio; Andre Iguodala, Philadelphia; Tony Parker, San Antonio

Who is the toughest player in the NBA?

1. Ron Artest, L.A. Lakers – 42.9%
2. Kobe Bryant, L.A. Lakers – 10.7%
T-3. Kevin Garnett, Boston – 7.1%
T-3. Shaquille O’Neal, Cleveland – 7.1%
T-3. Dwyane Wade, Miami – 7.1%

> Also receiving votes: Matt Harpring, Utah; Al Horford, Atlanta; Stephen Jackson, Golden State; Chris Paul, New Orleans; Luis Scola, Houston; Kurt Thomas, Milwaukee

> Last year: Ron Artest – 37.0%

Which player is the best leader?

1. Chauncey Billups, Denver – 28.6%
2. Kobe Bryant, L.A. Lakers – 25.0%
3. Tim Duncan, San Antonio – 14.3%
4. Kevin Garnett, Boston – 10.7%
T-5. Jason Kidd, Dallas – 7.1%
T-5. Steve Nash, Phoenix – 7.1%
T-5. Chris Paul, New Orleans – 7.1%

> Last year: Kevin Garnett – 51.9%

Which player has the best basketball IQ?

1. Steve Nash, Phoenix – 36.5%
2. Kobe Bryant, L.A. Lakers – 28.8%
3. Jason Kidd, Dallas – 7.7%

> Also receiving votes: Shane Battier, Houston; Chauncey Billups, Denver; Tim Duncan, San Antonio; Pau Gasol, L.A. Lakers; Tony Parker, San Antonio; Brandon Roy, Portland; Deron Williams, Utah

Which player would you want taking a shot with the game on the line?

1. Kobe Bryant, L.A. Lakers – 89.7%
2. Paul Pierce, Boston – 6.9%
3. Carmelo Anthony, Denver – 3.4%

> Last year: Kobe Bryant – 88.9%

https://www.nba.com/news/nba-gm-survey-2009-10

[cpower]

Jordan's never got Olympics mvp or ist mvp.

its probably a good thing that he does not have MVPs that are voted by media members who scans QR code on stadium wall and can place votes anytime during the tournament.

[Worm Guts]

Jordan's never got Olympics mvp or ist mvp.

If it existed in 1984, he would have it.

[brackdan70]

What a joke..Lebron shouldn't be in 2nd place. DUNCAN, KOBE, BIRD , MAGIC, HAKEEM, KAREEM, CURRY were all better,

Explain and support please?

[theforumblue]

yeah ok. and still have KD above Steph.