2024-2025 Preseason Game 2: Orlando Magic (0-1) at San Antonio Spurs (0-1) - 8pm

[SOUL]

Read on Twitter

[Skybox]

You guys are insane btw.

You can't have everything you want in the NBA. Teams have to prioritize. Paolo, Franz, Suggs, Black, Jett.. that's a lot of young talent. The team is going to have to find a formula to win with what they have. Having Paolo and Franz play make is something other teams would trade you their ball dominant PG in a heartbeat.

You don't think Atlanta would trade Young for Paolo in a heartbeat or how about Memphis? You don't think they would trade Ja for Paolo?

Some of you like most fan bases get to close too the team by following their every step and you lose sight of the big picture.. which is developing the young talent they have and teaching or allowing them to learn how to win WITH WHAT THEY HAVE. See what develops or who develops and when the right player becomes available you go after him.. that ball dominant PG has not become available. And don't give me Dejounte Murray... he clearly has character issues and is on his 3rd team.. he appears to be a disrupter.

Might be just me but uh....i don't want a ball dominant point guard...i would like one that can do the job of a PG in a solid way and can stretch the floor....the last thing i want is someone that is going to take the ball out of paolo's and franz hands....he needs to be a player that comes here and knows from day 1 he's the 3rd option at best

If Murray is too bad of a character, I’m a little (pleasantly) surprised our big get this summer is likely the only guy to ever wear an ankle monitor in NBA games. We need some more bad attitudes on this team.

[VFX]

Read on Twitter

Yeah, but what is the replacement numbers for Goga?

3 guys minus Carter would be worse than 4 guys plus Carter no?

[SOUL]

Read on Twitter

Yeah, but what is the replacement numbers for Goga?

3 guys minus Carter would be worse than 4 guys plus Carter no?

Read on Twitter

[VFX]

Read on Twitter

Yeah, but what is the replacement numbers for Goga?

3 guys minus Carter would be worse than 4 guys plus Carter no?

Read on Twitter

Yeah so whats the actual data?

It's not like we have seen all starters + Goga for extended minutes. Also, nobody is calling Wendell a complete sieve on defense. He's fine defensively within a system and does the job. He's just not a rim protector or a finisher. Basically the goldi-lox option between Goga and Moe... The worst thing about him is that he's set to miss 20-30 games a season, so it doesn't really matter. Orlando has to pay 3 Centers because Carter has to be planned around.

[eyriq]

When comparing lineups that featured either Goga Bitadze or Wendell Carter Jr., we can observe how the team’s performance shifted in terms of Net Rating (NETRTG), Offensive Rating (OFFRTG), and Defensive Rating (DEFRTG). Here’s the breakdown for the top 10 most shared lineups. I think it is pretty clear that Goga was the better player last season. The differences are as Metric with WCJ - Metric with Goga. For example, top line had a defensive rating of 103.7 with WCJ and 104.1 with Goga, so a difference of 103.7-104.1 = -0.4, indicating that the lineup was slightly better defensively with WCJ vs Goga.

1. F. Wagner, J. Suggs, P. Banchero, A. Black:
Goga outperformed WCJ slightly on both offense and net rating. However, WCJ had the edge defensively, with a better DEFRTG (-0.4).

2. G. Harris, F. Wagner, P. Banchero, A. Black:
This lineup favored Goga across the board. The lineup performed significantly worse with WCJ, especially on defense (+18.2 with WCJ compared to Goga).

3. G. Harris, F. Wagner, J. Suggs, P. Banchero:
WCJ had a stronger impact on net rating and defense, improving both, while Goga had a slightly better offensive performance (-4.9).

4. C. Anthony, F. Wagner, J. Suggs, P. Banchero:
Goga had the advantage in net rating and offensive impact, while WCJ contributed more defensively.

5. G. Harris, C. Anthony, F. Wagner, P. Banchero:
Goga clearly excelled in all categories, showing significant defensive improvement over WCJ (who had a much worse DEFRTG of +41.3).

6. F. Wagner, J. Suggs, P. Banchero, C. Houstan:
This lineup heavily favored WCJ, with substantial advantages in net rating, offense, and defense. Goga struggled defensively (-51.4).

7. M. Fultz, F. Wagner, J. Suggs, P. Banchero:
WCJ was stronger across all categories in this lineup, making a positive impact both offensively and defensively.

8. C. Anthony, F. Wagner, P. Banchero, A. Black:
This lineup was mixed: WCJ was stronger in net rating and defense, while Goga contributed more offensively.

9. J. Ingles, J. Suggs, P. Banchero, A. Black:
The team performed much worse with WCJ in this lineup, with Goga holding the advantage in all metrics. DEFRTG was particularly bad with WCJ (+42.4).

10. J. Ingles, M. Fultz, J. Suggs, P. Banchero:
Goga was more effective overall in net rating and offense, while WCJ slightly improved the defense.

Across these lineups, Goga generally provides better offense, with most lineups showing improved OFFRTG in his presence. On the other hand, WCJ typically contributes more to defensive stability (as seen in DEFRTG, where a negative difference is better). WCJ shines in specific lineups, but Goga shows a more balanced contribution overall, particularly in his ability to positively impact both offensive and defensive metrics in many lineups.

[eyriq]

And if you are curious, I looked at every single shared lineup between the two, took the differences in Net Rating, Offensive Rating, and Defensive Rating, bootstrapped a dataset weighted by minutes and took the average difference along with a calculation of a 95% confidence interval.

Goga on average
- improved our net rating by 9.2 points, with the 95% confidence interval ranging from 22.3 to -4.3.
- improved our offense by 8.7 points, with the 95% confidence interval ranging from 17.5 to -0.4.
- improved our defense by 0.5, with the 95% confidence interval ranging from 9.7 to -10.6

He almost certainly made us better offensively and on defense it was a wash, which is pretty surprising tbh. WCJ might be better defensively than I thought.

[Knightro]

When comparing lineups that featured either Goga Bitadze or Wendell Carter Jr., we can observe how the team’s performance shifted in terms of Net Rating (NETRTG), Offensive Rating (OFFRTG), and Defensive Rating (DEFRTG). Here’s the breakdown for the top 10 most shared lineups. I think it is pretty clear that Goga was the better player last season. The differences are as Metric with WCJ - Metric with Goga. For example, top line had a defensive rating of 103.7 with WCJ and 104.1 with Goga, so a difference of 103.7-104.1 = -0.4, indicating that the lineup was slightly better defensively with WCJ vs Goga.

1. F. Wagner, J. Suggs, P. Banchero, A. Black:
Goga outperformed WCJ slightly on both offense and net rating. However, WCJ had the edge defensively, with a better DEFRTG (-0.4).

2. G. Harris, F. Wagner, P. Banchero, A. Black:
This lineup favored Goga across the board. The lineup performed significantly worse with WCJ, especially on defense (+18.2 with WCJ compared to Goga).

3. G. Harris, F. Wagner, J. Suggs, P. Banchero:
WCJ had a stronger impact on net rating and defense, improving both, while Goga had a slightly better offensive performance (-4.9).

4. C. Anthony, F. Wagner, J. Suggs, P. Banchero:
Goga had the advantage in net rating and offensive impact, while WCJ contributed more defensively.

5. G. Harris, C. Anthony, F. Wagner, P. Banchero:
Goga clearly excelled in all categories, showing significant defensive improvement over WCJ (who had a much worse DEFRTG of +41.3).

6. F. Wagner, J. Suggs, P. Banchero, C. Houstan:
This lineup heavily favored WCJ, with substantial advantages in net rating, offense, and defense. Goga struggled defensively (-51.4).

7. M. Fultz, F. Wagner, J. Suggs, P. Banchero:
WCJ was stronger across all categories in this lineup, making a positive impact both offensively and defensively.

8. C. Anthony, F. Wagner, P. Banchero, A. Black:
This lineup was mixed: WCJ was stronger in net rating and defense, while Goga contributed more offensively.

9. J. Ingles, J. Suggs, P. Banchero, A. Black:
The team performed much worse with WCJ in this lineup, with Goga holding the advantage in all metrics. DEFRTG was particularly bad with WCJ (+42.4).

10. J. Ingles, M. Fultz, J. Suggs, P. Banchero:
Goga was more effective overall in net rating and offense, while WCJ slightly improved the defense.

Across these lineups, Goga generally provides better offense, with most lineups showing improved OFFRTG in his presence. On the other hand, WCJ typically contributes more to defensive stability (as seen in DEFRTG, where a negative difference is better). WCJ shines in specific lineups, but Goga shows a more balanced contribution overall, particularly in his ability to positively impact both offensive and defensive metrics in many lineups.

While I certainly respect the work you’ve done here, without the context of how many minutes each version of each lineup actually played in total, I think these comparisons can be easily viewed in a more extreme light than is appropriate.

When you’re dealing with very small minute samples, which most of these lineups are, you can see massive swings in effectiveness simply based on one small stretch of hot or cold shooting by either team, ya know?

[VFX]

Also not to mention…

The lineups favoring Carter will and should never be seen again. Fultz and Ingles aren’t on the team anymore. AB and Cole should never play together.

[eyriq]

I think Goga is able to give us a boost on offense because of his offensive rebounding. He's low usage, so better players take the shots, but he cleans up the misses. He's our best offensive rebounder and in general getting offensive rebounds for this offense is huge.

[JoshuaPotter]

WCJ being better on the floor for us is a non starter discussion. He to me knowledge has never been a liability except for injury's sake. That being said, he does nothing spectacular except for gel really really well into our lineup and has tons of established chemistry with our rising team.

[yoyojw17]

WCJ being better on the floor for us is a non starter discussion. He to me knowledge has never been a liability except for injury's sake. That being said, he does nothing spectacular except for gel really really well into our lineup and has tons of established chemistry with our rising team.

Agreed. And outside of the busted hand during a game winning play... he has definitely looked better in that sense. Shot the ball super well from deep even though the hand was still not the greatest. personnel changes, playing time, and injuries have made a difference this season... and 11 point, 7 rebound, 2 assist isn't bad for 26 min is not bad ... especially given the circumstances.

[JoshuaPotter]

Also not to mention…

The lineups favoring Carter will and should never be seen again. Fultz and Ingles aren’t on the team anymore. AB and Cole should never play together.

I would like to see Isaac in place of Carter in the starting lineup. Regardless of the butterflies Isaac had in his stomach regarding corner 3's. I think once more playing time is had between Isaac + the rest of the SL that he could most definitely be the better man.

Or both Isaac and Carter get injured at roughly the same time and we see Goga play and ask yet again why are we wasting time between Carter / Isaac hopes n dreams.

[Skybox]

I feel like WCJ is the best C on the team...kind of like our PG position ...doesn't mean we're set at that spot - even if we just signed half of the Centers in the Eastern Conference.

He's, at times, a fantastically versatile complement to Franz & Paolo...particularly if their 3pt shooting doesn't catch up to their finishing ability at the rim. WCJ has, in the past, averaged over 10 rpg, but even if his rebounding numbers are down, we're still one of the better rebounding teams in the league - THAT is a scheme-thing more so than individually great rebounders, so it's not really a concern with WCJ (although when the going gets critical, it's sure nice to have a guy like D12 that comes down with the ball in traffic more often than the other 9 guys on the court combined). I certainly don't consider our C spot to be our biggest problem. Hopefully, our coaching staff has it right regarding the offensive creation side of things (whether it's AB, Suggs, Cole, or just an overwheliming dose of Franz & Paolo watching Jokic highlights this summer)...upgrading Center for us would be a bit of a luxury more than an urgent need, imo.

I'd like to see more Isaac and more Goga at C...but not because I don't think WCJ is good. I'm just curious about the others - particularly if swole Isaac can fulfill the vision that Bamba was supposed to be...a sweet-shooting elite agile defensive menace is precisely the type of C we'd love. But if you can't be with the one you love - love the one you're with.

[pepe1991]

Wendell is good center. Not like our PG situation where vast majority of teams have better backup than our starters.

Goga can't spread floor, that creates problems with Banchero & rest of non shooters.
Isaac is treated as no shooter even when he makes shots. Isaac's bigger problem is fact he is not center nor knows how to play C.

After screens he won't roll, he never catches ally oops nor is good finisher around rim for a big.

It's just more offensive options being stripped from your already crappy offense. PGs who can't pick&roll, Cs without purpose other than being garbage men below rim.

Carter isn't great, and is often hurt, but he is nba starter at C. Something that neither Goga or Isaac are.

[jezzerinho]

Wendell is good center. Not like our PG situation where vast majority of teams have better backup than our starters.

Goga can't spread floor, that creates problems with Banchero & rest of non shooters.
Isaac is treated as no shooter even when he makes shots. Isaac's bigger problem is fact he is not center nor knows how to play C.

After screens he won't roll, he never catches ally oops nor is good finisher around rim for a big.

It's just more offensive options being stripped from your already crappy offense. PGs who can't pick&roll, Cs without purpose other than being garbage men below rim.

Carter isn't great, and is often hurt, but he is nba starter at C. Something that neither Goga or Isaac are.

Exactly. I've made this point about 5 times this offseason. Beware getting rid of Carter for Bitadze or Isaac on the offensive end, and for Moe in the defensive side. I say that as a Goga fan.

[JoshuaPotter]

Wendell is good center. Not like our PG situation where vast majority of teams have better backup than our starters.

Goga can't spread floor, that creates problems with Banchero & rest of non shooters.
Isaac is treated as no shooter even when he makes shots. Isaac's bigger problem is fact he is not center nor knows how to play C.

After screens he won't roll, he never catches ally oops nor is good finisher around rim for a big.

It's just more offensive options being stripped from your already crappy offense. PGs who can't pick&roll, Cs without purpose other than being garbage men below rim.

Carter isn't great, and is often hurt, but he is nba starter at C. Something that neither Goga or Isaac are.

Exactly. I've made this point about 5 times this offseason. Beware getting rid of Carter for Bitadze or Isaac on the offensive end, and for Moe in the defensive side. I say that as a Goga fan.

The problem is not "getting rid of carter because there is nothing better behind him".

There is plenty of rotational pieces behind carter.

The problem is we have re-commited to all 4. 2 are fringe often injured caliber starters and the other 2 are bench / deep bench C.

Edit : I have said before WCJ is going to be our best starter by far in the short term. Isaac on paper anyway "should be" better but for some reason hasn't developed the much needed chemistry that WCJ has. We saw it in the playoffs so we shouldn't be surprised.

[JoshuaPotter]

When comparing lineups that featured either Goga Bitadze or Wendell Carter Jr., we can observe how the team’s performance shifted in terms of Net Rating (NETRTG), Offensive Rating (OFFRTG), and Defensive Rating (DEFRTG). Here’s the breakdown for the top 10 most shared lineups. I think it is pretty clear that Goga was the better player last season. The differences are as Metric with WCJ - Metric with Goga. For example, top line had a defensive rating of 103.7 with WCJ and 104.1 with Goga, so a difference of 103.7-104.1 = -0.4, indicating that the lineup was slightly better defensively with WCJ vs Goga.

1. F. Wagner, J. Suggs, P. Banchero, A. Black:
Goga outperformed WCJ slightly on both offense and net rating. However, WCJ had the edge defensively, with a better DEFRTG (-0.4).

2. G. Harris, F. Wagner, P. Banchero, A. Black:
This lineup favored Goga across the board. The lineup performed significantly worse with WCJ, especially on defense (+18.2 with WCJ compared to Goga).

3. G. Harris, F. Wagner, J. Suggs, P. Banchero:
WCJ had a stronger impact on net rating and defense, improving both, while Goga had a slightly better offensive performance (-4.9).

4. C. Anthony, F. Wagner, J. Suggs, P. Banchero:
Goga had the advantage in net rating and offensive impact, while WCJ contributed more defensively.

5. G. Harris, C. Anthony, F. Wagner, P. Banchero:
Goga clearly excelled in all categories, showing significant defensive improvement over WCJ (who had a much worse DEFRTG of +41.3).

6. F. Wagner, J. Suggs, P. Banchero, C. Houstan:
This lineup heavily favored WCJ, with substantial advantages in net rating, offense, and defense. Goga struggled defensively (-51.4).

7. M. Fultz, F. Wagner, J. Suggs, P. Banchero:
WCJ was stronger across all categories in this lineup, making a positive impact both offensively and defensively.

8. C. Anthony, F. Wagner, P. Banchero, A. Black:
This lineup was mixed: WCJ was stronger in net rating and defense, while Goga contributed more offensively.

9. J. Ingles, J. Suggs, P. Banchero, A. Black:
The team performed much worse with WCJ in this lineup, with Goga holding the advantage in all metrics. DEFRTG was particularly bad with WCJ (+42.4).

10. J. Ingles, M. Fultz, J. Suggs, P. Banchero:
Goga was more effective overall in net rating and offense, while WCJ slightly improved the defense.

Across these lineups, Goga generally provides better offense, with most lineups showing improved OFFRTG in his presence. On the other hand, WCJ typically contributes more to defensive stability (as seen in DEFRTG, where a negative difference is better). WCJ shines in specific lineups, but Goga shows a more balanced contribution overall, particularly in his ability to positively impact both offensive and defensive metrics in many lineups.

While I certainly respect the work you’ve done here, without the context of how many minutes each version of each lineup actually played in total, I think these comparisons can be easily viewed in a more extreme light than is appropriate.

When you’re dealing with very small minute samples, which most of these lineups are, you can see massive swings in effectiveness simply based on one small stretch of hot or cold shooting by either team, ya know?

The problem is, Goga will have less minutes. Period. That is enough for you to put the ka-bosh on it.

As for me, one of the best lineups I saw had Goga / AB in it + stats to back it up. But I am a huge AB homer so I am admittedly biased in this topic.

[The-Stallion70]

We lost to the fing Spurs wth is this time for a new teem

[Last Guardian]

The Cole stuff is pretty clear unfortunately. His archetype is valuable, but he's on the low end of that archetype. A microwave scorer that doesn't really score that well. I would love for him to get to that Lou Williams like level but I don't see it happening at this point.