RGM GOAT Debate Thread

[bledredwine]

Look, I know that you're a big Lebron fan,

I get that you like Lebron, but dismissing Jordan when he has all bases covered is going off the deep end... just false.

I'm not a Lebron fan at all. I've rooted against him his whole career.

I don't get what you're responding to. I was talking about the history of the GOAT debate and how I feel about the state of the discourse. I didn't make any big comment on any player, but you see MJ's named and automatically go on the defensive and give your pro-MJ arguments for the millionth time, responding to...nothing that I said. Explain how I dismissed Jordan or how anything you said had anything to do with anything I said.

I don't care much for participating in the GOAT debate. It's so boring and overdone. I think MJ has a pretty obvious case for GOAT. Lebron does too, sure. I prefer MJ's prime. I've seen plenty of smart arguments for a handful of other guys too (Kareem, Russell, Duncan). I don't lose sleep over it.

Neither does he. He just happens to have his signature and his whole identity on this forum dedicated to slandering LeBron whenever possible.

He totally doesn't lose sleep over LeBron though

Glad to know the sig is getting your attention!
The truth hurts sometimes, doesn't it?


Anyway, thanks for the holler.
Seeing how often you speak about me, clearly I'm the one with all of the mental real estate

[ReddoverKobe]

If we are being serious this is a 3 person race. Jordan, Lebron and Kareem. No one else belongs anywhere close.

[SlimShady83]

If we are being serious this is a 3 person race. Jordan, Lebron and Kareem. No one else belongs anywhere close.

LOL But Russell has more votes then Kareem on here and If I had placed, as I said b4; Shaq, Bird and maybe even Wilt. They would get just as many votes some might compete with Lebron. Is what It Is, can't change it now, just saying.

[MavsDirk41]

If we are being serious this is a 3 person race. Jordan, Lebron and Kareem. No one else belongs anywhere close.

Should be those 3 and Russell

[Knightfall]

How the hell is Kobe on this list above Bird and Shaq. That's just stupidity or drugs talking. The guy has 1 more championship then Chauncy Billups as the driver of the bus. Lol stupid people. The guy was number 2 on Shaqs teams for a minute even avg 12ppg in the finals as the #2 option where all the D was focused on Shaq who averaged Monster numbers. Let's not even forget that Wilt isnt on this list. This has to be the least credible list o seen.

As for the goat I can see an argument for Kareem, Wilt, Jordan, Russell and Lebron. If anyone had any of them at #1 I could respect it.

[dautjazz]

If we are being serious this is a 3 person race. Jordan, Lebron and Kareem. No one else belongs anywhere close.

Should be those 3 and Russell

I can't for the life of me see an argument for Russell. 15.1ppg .471TS% automatically disqualifies him. No way he's so much better defensively than MJ, Lebron, and Kareem, that he can make up the canyon of a gap offensively. I understand he was a great leader, and led his team to 11 titles, but outside the 1969 team he had 2-3 teammates make the All-Star team that year, on top of some guys just falling short some years, and excellent role players who didn't make the All-Star games (like KC Jones). If I were building a team and I can have any player for their prime, there is no chance he falls in my top 10. I'll easily take the following 11 ahead of him:

MJ
Lebron
Kareem
Chamberlain
Magic
Bird
Duncan
Shaq
Olajuwon
Jokic
Curry

[Larry_Russell]

Lebron isnt top 5.

[Larry_Russell]

Its like this

Jordan is the goat. Period, been discussed ad nauseaum

Russell is the winningest player of all time. He is #2

Magic and Bird and #3 and #4 combined.

Kareem is #5

Wilt is #6

Steph is #7


After that its a big grouping with Jokic poised to be in the group.

Jordan, Russell, Magic, Bird, Kareem, Wilt and Steph transcended and CHANGED the game of basketball. Their greatness alone changed the way the game was played, the way it was coached, the way teams were structured and the way rules were made and enforced.

You cannot argue that any of Kobe, Shaq, Lebron, etc. None of those guys fundamentally changed the game like the above 7 did.

To be the goat you have to not just be the best player in the game, you also have to dramatically change the way the game is/was played.

[dautjazz]

Mods delete this post

[dautjazz]

Its like this

Jordan is the goat. Period, been discussed ad nauseaum

Russell is the winningest player of all time. He is #2

Magic and Bird and #3 and #4 combined.

Kareem is #5

Wilt is #6

Steph is #7


After that its a big grouping with Jokic poised to be in the group.

Jordan, Russell, Magic, Bird, Kareem, Wilt and Steph transcended and CHANGED the game of basketball. Their greatness alone changed the way the game was played, the way it was coached, the way teams were structured and the way rules were made and enforced.

You cannot argue that any of Kobe, Shaq, Lebron, etc. None of those guys fundamentally changed the game like the above 7 did.

To be the goat you have to not just be the best player in the game, you also have to dramatically change the way the game is/was played.

I'm sorry, but I can't take any argument for Lebron outside the top 3 seriously.

Curry: I'm sorry, but no. Peak Lebron is better and his longevity will be better as well.

Russell: for as great as he was defensively, his offense was terrible, sure he had 11 titles, but the era he did it in matters, and every team that won a title of his had 3-4 All-Stars, except 1969. I would have a hard time picking him over Kareem, Wilt, Shaq, Olajuwon, or Jokic to start a team.

Chamberlain: it's hard for me rank him, his stats are insane, but it's hard to ignore the era he accomplished it in. I have him somewhere in between 4-10, but I can't put him above Lebron, MJ, and Kareem especially with just two titles.

Bird and Magic? I love them, but Lebron essentially takes Magic's mold, and adds more scoring. Bird and Magic are probably more important to the game, as they essentially saved the league in the 80s, but not better.

[Larry_Russell]

Its like this

Jordan is the goat. Period, been discussed ad nauseaum

Russell is the winningest player of all time. He is #2

Magic and Bird and #3 and #4 combined.

Kareem is #5

Wilt is #6

Steph is #7


After that its a big grouping with Jokic poised to be in the group.

Jordan, Russell, Magic, Bird, Kareem, Wilt and Steph transcended and CHANGED the game of basketball. Their greatness alone changed the way the game was played, the way it was coached, the way teams were structured and the way rules were made and enforced.

You cannot argue that any of Kobe, Shaq, Lebron, etc. None of those guys fundamentally changed the game like the above 7 did.

To be the goat you have to not just be the best player in the game, you also have to dramatically change the way the game is/was played.

I'm sorry, but I can't take any argument for Lebron outside the top 3 seriously.

Curry: I'm sorry, but no. Peak Lebron is better and his longevity will be better as well.

Russell: for as great as he was defensively, his offense was terrible, sure he had 11 titles, but the era he did it in matters, and every team that won a title of his had 3-4 All-Stars, except 1969. I would have a hard time picking him over Kareem, Wilt, Shaq, Olajuwon, or Jokic to start a team.

Chamberlain: it's hard for me rank him, his stats are insane, but it's hard to ignore the era he accomplished it in. I have him somewhere in between 4-10, but I can't put him above Lebron, MJ, and Kareem especially with just two titles.

Bird and Magic? I love them, but Lebron essentially takes Magic's mold, and adds more scoring. Bird and Magic are probably more important to the game, as they essentially saved the league in the 80s, but not better.

Discounting the impact on the game and citing lebrons longevity show ke that you have no idea and are most likely a 14 year old kid.

Bird was 3 time mvp almost a triple double per game and was the engine of one of the greatest teams of all tome
Magic was a 3 time mvp 3 time finalsvp and the engine of one of the greatest teams of all time

Your diacounting of russell shows your lack of understanding of the game greatly.

Lebron has longevity and playing with allstars and hof players.
Lebrons career can be put to using advancements in sport science and nutrition that was not available in the past.

Lebron, for 20 years of playing, still has not changed the game. At all.
He created running to build superteams I guess. And crying to the refs
And speaking about himself in the 3rd person

[dautjazz]

Its like this

Jordan is the goat. Period, been discussed ad nauseaum

Russell is the winningest player of all time. He is #2

Magic and Bird and #3 and #4 combined.

Kareem is #5

Wilt is #6

Steph is #7


After that its a big grouping with Jokic poised to be in the group.

Jordan, Russell, Magic, Bird, Kareem, Wilt and Steph transcended and CHANGED the game of basketball. Their greatness alone changed the way the game was played, the way it was coached, the way teams were structured and the way rules were made and enforced.

You cannot argue that any of Kobe, Shaq, Lebron, etc. None of those guys fundamentally changed the game like the above 7 did.

To be the goat you have to not just be the best player in the game, you also have to dramatically change the way the game is/was played.

I'm sorry, but I can't take any argument for Lebron outside the top 3 seriously.

Curry: I'm sorry, but no. Peak Lebron is better and his longevity will be better as well.

Russell: for as great as he was defensively, his offense was terrible, sure he had 11 titles, but the era he did it in matters, and every team that won a title of his had 3-4 All-Stars, except 1969. I would have a hard time picking him over Kareem, Wilt, Shaq, Olajuwon, or Jokic to start a team.

Chamberlain: it's hard for me rank him, his stats are insane, but it's hard to ignore the era he accomplished it in. I have him somewhere in between 4-10, but I can't put him above Lebron, MJ, and Kareem especially with just two titles.

Bird and Magic? I love them, but Lebron essentially takes Magic's mold, and adds more scoring. Bird and Magic are probably more important to the game, as they essentially saved the league in the 80s, but not better.

Discounting the impact on the game and citing lebrons longevity show ke that you have no idea and are most likely a 14 year old kid.

Bird was 3 time mvp almost a triple double per game and was the engine of one of the greatest teams of all tome
Magic was a 3 time mvp 3 time finalsvp and the engine of one of the greatest teams of all time

Your diacounting of russell shows your lack of understanding of the game greatly.

Lebron has longevity and playing with allstars and hof players.
Lebrons career can be put to using advancements in sport science and nutrition that was not available in the past.

Lebron, for 20 years of playing, still has not changed the game. At all.
He created running to build superteams I guess. And crying to the refs
And speaking about himself in the 3rd person

I'm 41, and have been following basketball for about 30 years, but nice try. I'm not discounting the impact to the game of players, I clearly acknowledged the importance of Bird and Magic, and they are IMO in the top 6 All-Time. The funny thing is you're acting as if my opinion of Lebron in the top three is crazy, but you have him outside the top 5, which I would say is probably in less than 1% of people's all-time lists.

[bledredwine]

I'm sorry, but I can't take any argument for Lebron outside the top 3 seriously.

Curry: I'm sorry, but no. Peak Lebron is better and his longevity will be better as well.

Russell: for as great as he was defensively, his offense was terrible, sure he had 11 titles, but the era he did it in matters, and every team that won a title of his had 3-4 All-Stars, except 1969. I would have a hard time picking him over Kareem, Wilt, Shaq, Olajuwon, or Jokic to start a team.

Chamberlain: it's hard for me rank him, his stats are insane, but it's hard to ignore the era he accomplished it in. I have him somewhere in between 4-10, but I can't put him above Lebron, MJ, and Kareem especially with just two titles.

Bird and Magic? I love them, but Lebron essentially takes Magic's mold, and adds more scoring. Bird and Magic are probably more important to the game, as they essentially saved the league in the 80s, but not better.

Discounting the impact on the game and citing lebrons longevity show ke that you have no idea and are most likely a 14 year old kid.

Bird was 3 time mvp almost a triple double per game and was the engine of one of the greatest teams of all tome
Magic was a 3 time mvp 3 time finalsvp and the engine of one of the greatest teams of all time

Your diacounting of russell shows your lack of understanding of the game greatly.

Lebron has longevity and playing with allstars and hof players.
Lebrons career can be put to using advancements in sport science and nutrition that was not available in the past.

Lebron, for 20 years of playing, still has not changed the game. At all.
He created running to build superteams I guess. And crying to the refs
And speaking about himself in the 3rd person

I'm 41, and have been following basketball for about 30 years, but nice try. I'm not discounting the impact to the game of players, I clearly acknowledged the importance of Bird and Magic, and they are IMO in the top 6 All-Time. The funny thing is you're acting as if my opinion of Lebron in the top three is crazy, but you have him outside the top 5, which I would say is probably in less than 1% of people's all-time lists.

There are plenty of arguments for Lebron outside of the top three. Heck, if I have to pick a player to fit into a roster and win a championship in a one or even three year stretch, there are several players that I would choose over Lebron. He’s one of the best floor raisers ever but certainly not one of the best off ball players.

I’d take any of Jordan, Shaq, Hakeem, Kareem and Bird if I want to win a championship in a given season with a random team, and especially if it’s a team with particularly solid players. I don’t like my team’s chances if we’re playing Lebron ball and his teammates made dumb mistakes throughout his career, which hasn’t demonstrated the best leadership if he's compared to the champs mentioned above.

Where Lebron has had the advantage is his longevity and the fact that he plays point forward, so he wracks up assists alongside his scoring, giving the illusion that’s he’s actually better than a Shaq, Kareem or Hakeem when he’s definitely not. Finals Hakeem Kareem and Shaq over finals Lebron any day.

[Larry_Russell]

Discounting the impact on the game and citing lebrons longevity show ke that you have no idea and are most likely a 14 year old kid.

Bird was 3 time mvp almost a triple double per game and was the engine of one of the greatest teams of all tome
Magic was a 3 time mvp 3 time finalsvp and the engine of one of the greatest teams of all time

Your diacounting of russell shows your lack of understanding of the game greatly.

Lebron has longevity and playing with allstars and hof players.
Lebrons career can be put to using advancements in sport science and nutrition that was not available in the past.

Lebron, for 20 years of playing, still has not changed the game. At all.
He created running to build superteams I guess. And crying to the refs
And speaking about himself in the 3rd person

I'm 41, and have been following basketball for about 30 years, but nice try. I'm not discounting the impact to the game of players, I clearly acknowledged the importance of Bird and Magic, and they are IMO in the top 6 All-Time. The funny thing is you're acting as if my opinion of Lebron in the top three is crazy, but you have him outside the top 5, which I would say is probably in less than 1% of people's all-time lists.

There are plenty of arguments for Lebron outside of the top three. Heck, if I have to pick a player to fit into a roster and win a championship in a one or even three year stretch, there are several players that I would choose over Lebron. He’s one of the best floor raisers ever but certainly not one of the best off ball players.

I’d take any of Jordan, Shaq, Hakeem, Kareem and Bird if I want to win a championship in a given season with a random team, and especially if it’s a team with particularly solid players. I don’t like my team’s chances if we’re playing Lebron ball and his teammates made dumb mistakes throughout his career, which hasn’t demonstrated the best leadership among the guys mentioned above.

Where Lebron has had the advantage is his longevity and the fact that he plays point forward, so he wracks up assists alongside his scoring, giving the illusion that’s he’s actually better than a Shaq, Kareem or Hakeem when he’s definitely not. Finals Hakeem Kareem and Shaq over finals Lebron any day.

I would also add Magic johnson to the list. as he is a tremendous floor raiser.

And I would easily argue the greatest floor raisers of all time are:

1) Jokic
2) Nash

Nash used to be the best, but Jokic has surpased him.


Look at a couple of teams right now.

Raptors and Chicago.

Which version of the 2 team are you more scared of after adding the last mvp season of lebron or jokic onto

Raptors
Quickley
Dick
Barrett
Barnes
Jokic 2023-24

Bulls
White
Giddey
Lavine
Williams
Jokic 2023-24

Raptors
Quickley
Barrett
Lebron (2012-13)
Barnes
Poeltl

Bulls
White
Giddey
Lavine
Lebron (2012-2013)
Vooch

I for one see the teams with Jokic being far scarier

[Larry_Russell]

Discounting the impact on the game and citing lebrons longevity show ke that you have no idea and are most likely a 14 year old kid.

Bird was 3 time mvp almost a triple double per game and was the engine of one of the greatest teams of all tome
Magic was a 3 time mvp 3 time finalsvp and the engine of one of the greatest teams of all time

Your diacounting of russell shows your lack of understanding of the game greatly.

Lebron has longevity and playing with allstars and hof players.
Lebrons career can be put to using advancements in sport science and nutrition that was not available in the past.

Lebron, for 20 years of playing, still has not changed the game. At all.
He created running to build superteams I guess. And crying to the refs
And speaking about himself in the 3rd person

I'm 41, and have been following basketball for about 30 years, but nice try. I'm not discounting the impact to the game of players, I clearly acknowledged the importance of Bird and Magic, and they are IMO in the top 6 All-Time. The funny thing is you're acting as if my opinion of Lebron in the top three is crazy, but you have him outside the top 5, which I would say is probably in less than 1% of people's all-time lists.

There are plenty of arguments for Lebron outside of the top three. Heck, if I have to pick a player to fit into a roster and win a championship in a one or even three year stretch, there are several players that I would choose over Lebron. He’s one of the best floor raisers ever but certainly not one of the best off ball players.

I’d take any of Jordan, Shaq, Hakeem, Kareem and Bird if I want to win a championship in a given season with a random team, and especially if it’s a team with particularly solid players. I don’t like my team’s chances if we’re playing Lebron ball and his teammates made dumb mistakes throughout his career, which hasn’t demonstrated the best leadership among the guys mentioned above.

Where Lebron has had the advantage is his longevity and the fact that he plays point forward, so he wracks up assists alongside his scoring, giving the illusion that’s he’s actually better than a Shaq, Kareem or Hakeem when he’s definitely not. Finals Hakeem Kareem and Shaq over finals Lebron any day.

I would also add that while
Jordan
Magic
Bird
Russell
Wilt
Shaq
Steph

have all CHANGED the nba for the better, changed the way the game is looked at, played, etc.

Lebron has changed the game for the WORSE.
Flopping, crying, whining, creating super teams, calling himself the goat, nepotism, etc.

[Rust_Cohle]

I’d say lebron is a better floor raiser but MJ the better ceiling raiser

[bledredwine]

I'm 41, and have been following basketball for about 30 years, but nice try. I'm not discounting the impact to the game of players, I clearly acknowledged the importance of Bird and Magic, and they are IMO in the top 6 All-Time. The funny thing is you're acting as if my opinion of Lebron in the top three is crazy, but you have him outside the top 5, which I would say is probably in less than 1% of people's all-time lists.

There are plenty of arguments for Lebron outside of the top three. Heck, if I have to pick a player to fit into a roster and win a championship in a one or even three year stretch, there are several players that I would choose over Lebron. He’s one of the best floor raisers ever but certainly not one of the best off ball players.

I’d take any of Jordan, Shaq, Hakeem, Kareem and Bird if I want to win a championship in a given season with a random team, and especially if it’s a team with particularly solid players. I don’t like my team’s chances if we’re playing Lebron ball and his teammates made dumb mistakes throughout his career, which hasn’t demonstrated the best leadership among the guys mentioned above.

Where Lebron has had the advantage is his longevity and the fact that he plays point forward, so he wracks up assists alongside his scoring, giving the illusion that’s he’s actually better than a Shaq, Kareem or Hakeem when he’s definitely not. Finals Hakeem Kareem and Shaq over finals Lebron any day.

I would also add Magic johnson to the list. as he is a tremendous floor raiser.

And I would easily argue the greatest floor raisers of all time are:

1) Jokic
2) Nash

Nash used to be the best, but Jokic has surpased him.


Look at a couple of teams right now.

Raptors and Chicago.

Which version of the 2 team are you more scared of after adding the last mvp season of lebron or jokic onto

Raptors
Quickley
Dick
Barrett
Barnes
Jokic 2023-24

Bulls
White
Giddey
Lavine
Williams
Jokic 2023-24

Raptors
Quickley
Barrett
Lebron (2012-13)
Barnes
Poeltl

Bulls
White
Giddey
Lavine
Lebron (2012-2013)
Vooch

I for one see the teams with Jokic being far scarier

Yes, I meant to add Magic. He's the best glue guy to exist, maybe in any sport as far as I know... a superstar glue guy, of course.

[pipfan]

I have tiers

KAJ/LBJ/MJ (not sure if KAJ belongs here anymore, with LBJ's longevity surpassing his, and the 70's having the ABA eating talent)

Russell/Wilt/Magic/Shaq/Duncan

Bird/Hakeem/Curry/Kobe

Big O/West/KG/DRob/Dr. J

Jokic could end up in the 2nd tier, and Giannis as well

Luka looks destined for the 3rd tier (but would be my least favorite top 15 player by far)

[Maxthirty]

If you count opposing fans complete obsession over a player as a factor - LeBron is the GOAT of GOATs.

[Iwasawitness]

Spoiler:

Larry Russell really giving Bledredwine a run for his money for worst collection of posts in this thread.

Personal Attacks