The Anthony Black Thread

[Bensational]

It's kind of interesting how the friction developed around AB.

Many hated the pick.

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Sure, but a lot liked it in the abstract and then turned in it because they didn't trust the organization. Then views just kind of got entrenched and goal posts moved

I don't think it was ever really about AB, I think it stemmed from personal philosophies and preferences on how to handle the rebuild, largely centring around the need/value of bringing in a veteran PG. On that issue I think there's grounds for everyone to come out feeling validated in their opinions:

- AB is developing well either due to or in spite of his development path.
- FVV has Houston on an absolute tear and proving his value and impact on that developing squad.
- Tyus is doing well in Phoenix.
- Payton is starting for the Pelicans again.

They didn't all happen in coalescence on the Magic, so maybe that will linger with some, but overall everyone is looking justified in most of their takes. There is more than one way to build a championship team after all.

[JoshuaPotter]

Many hated the pick.

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Sure, but a lot liked it in the abstract and then turned in it because they didn't trust the organization. Then views just kind of got entrenched and goal posts moved

I don't think it was ever really about AB, I think it stemmed from personal philosophies and preferences on how to handle the rebuild, largely centring around the need/value of bringing in a veteran PG. On that issue I think there's grounds for everyone to come out feeling validated in their opinions:

- AB is developing well either due to or in spite of his development path.
- FVV has Houston on an absolute tear and proving his value and impact on that developing squad.
- Tyus is doing well in Phoenix.
- Payton is starting for the Pelicans again.

They didn't all happen in coalescence on the Magic, so maybe that will linger with some, but overall everyone is looking justified in most of their takes. There is more than one way to build a championship team after all.

Look Ben! I am @ you proper!

Ok the Payton thing is a joke right? Because that an extremely situational thing. Also, they could have and DIDN'T sign Fultz

As far as the rest goes. Yes, there was a window there where we could have either traded for Tyus, or signed FVV. My thing was, we did neither, drafted a PG, and proceeded to deep bench him or tell him the only way he is getting minutes this season is by 3&D.

I'm not calling the org "genius" yet. As I consider this Blacks rookie season. But holy cow, the mental gymnastics that surrounded Black when (entrenched or not) some of us were just like "play him and develop him".

Edit : there were moments when it felt like we couldn't get a word in because - Mose wasn't giving him minutes - therefore, he must and will always suck.

[GelbeWand09]

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[Bensational]

Look Ben! I am @ you proper!

Ok the Payton thing is a joke right? Because that an extremely situational thing. Also, they could have and DIDN'T sign Fultz

Lol, yeah, Payton was slipped in to get a laugh. That was one of the battles during the Vuc Wars. The Fultz Farewell Tour has now become the Cole Farewell Tour unless the guy can get his basketball skills back from the Monstars.

[SloNick Russia]

We better get ready 25M per after AB rookie season, maybe 30M.

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[Skybox]

All this talk about AB's "rookie season" and Jett's are bad management, IMO. It basically indicates we wasted a year of rookie scale and we'll have that much less evidence and value when the time comes for extensions. Parking promising guys on the bench or G league is just a form of delaying development, not enhancing it.

[basketballRob]

All this talk about AB's "rookie season" and Jett's are bad management, IMO. It basically indicates we wasted a year of rookie scale and we'll have that much less evidence and value when the time comes for extensions. Parking promising guys on the bench or G league is just a form of delaying development, not enhancing it.

It worked for Scottie Pippen Jr. Giving players something they don't deserve can ruin them. I'm sure Juwan is happy they are making Jett work for playing time.

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[Skybox]

All this talk about AB's "rookie season" and Jett's are bad management, IMO. It basically indicates we wasted a year of rookie scale and we'll have that much less evidence and value when the time comes for extensions. Parking promising guys on the bench or G league is just a form of delaying development, not enhancing it.

It worked for Scottie Pippen Jr. Giving players something they don't deserve can ruin them. I'm sure Juwan is happy they are making Jett work for playing time.

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Pippen wasn't close to a lottery pick...that plan is really good for guys who aren't hot prospects and there will certainly be great stories...but not, imo, for the top prospects...unless you're looking at a Giannis-like physical prospect that, if it works out, will look genius in a few years. But for every Giannis, there are 10 Thon Makers

[basketballRob]

We need Black's production in the last 4 games all the time. 13/2/7 shooting 42/38/76. +23

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/anthony-black-stats-over-the-last-4-games

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[KillMonger]

He's 20 years old, I like what I'm seeing so far

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[Knightro]

I liked Black as a prospect. I liked the pick when it was made. Felt like he was the clear BPA and was glad he was the pick.

I just really disliked A. how the Magic chose to use him in his rookie year and B. the way they constructed the roster in his rookie year. If he had just gotten some actual on ball reps last year, I think he'd be even further along his developmental path this year and he's already pretty good this year!

I also think Weltman should get down on his knees and thank the lord that Fultz completely fell apart physically and Cole completely fell apart mentally and essentially made things super easy on the front office and coaching staff.

[RichCollab]

We better get ready 25M per after AB rookie season, maybe 30M.

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KCP will be coming off the books.

Black is the 4th most important player. No brainer to pay him and being ready too.

[GelbeWand09]

I liked Black as a prospect. I liked the pick when it was made. Felt like he was the clear BPA and was glad he was the pick.

I just really disliked A. how the Magic chose to use him in his rookie year and B. the way they constructed the roster in his rookie year. If he had just gotten some actual on ball reps last year, I think he'd be even further along his developmental path this year and he's already pretty good this year!

I also think Weltman should get down on his knees and thank the lord that Fultz completely fell apart physically and Cole completely fell apart mentally and essentially made things super easy on the front office and coaching staff.

Not only on ball reps. He would be finishing better too at the rim and not getting blocked that much. Learning to finish against NBA length is probably one of the main issues for guards in their first 1-2 years. Due to AB's role in his freshman season, he's had almost no opportunity to learn that.

[SOUL]

I liked Black as a prospect. I liked the pick when it was made. Felt like he was the clear BPA and was glad he was the pick.

I just really disliked A. how the Magic chose to use him in his rookie year and B. the way they constructed the roster in his rookie year. If he had just gotten some actual on ball reps last year, I think he'd be even further along his developmental path this year and he's already pretty good this year!

I also think Weltman should get down on his knees and thank the lord that Fultz completely fell apart physically and Cole completely fell apart mentally and essentially made things super easy on the front office and coaching staff.

Not only on ball reps. He would be finishing better too at the rim and not getting blocked that much. Learning to finish against NBA length is probably one of the main issues for guards in their first 1-2 years. Due to AB's role in his freshman season, he's had almost no opportunity to learn that.

Playing time has literally no bearing on being able to do better the following year. Totally silly. Payton Pritchard had three years of 13-19 minutes and him playing well this year isn't because he was "stunted by the Celtics". Also people were using the opposite excuse when Elfrid was here that he wasn't learning enough because we were playing him too often. Guys like Scoot and Jalen Green certainly aren't learning more by playing a lot of minutes.

Especially the bolded part. He's having practices and scrimmages all year against his teammates who are literally top tier defenders and a top team in defense two years in a row. That's more valuable than any on-ball reps he would've gotten versus the Wizards or whatever.

AB was a tertiary piece to a team with their "big 3" of young guys already and we were never going to continually prop forward our rookies as development pieces over where the rest of the team was ready to compete. As many things as he did better than Fultz, there were pretty much equal in on court advanced stat value (Fultz was slightly better, neither great).

This is all separate from should he have played, what I would prefer, would it have hurt him to get those reps, etc. I think most of us agree we wanted to see more of him and it wouldn't have hurt him at all....

But there is just no evidence at all that on-ball reps carry on in any meaningful way. If this was the case, we wouldn't be having "Suggs shouldn't be the PG" arguments for three years now. The only thing I feel really translates in terms of PT is confidence, which isn't nothing, but you're not grinding XP mobs and getting bonus skills by playing 5 more more minutes and playing slightly more on-ball (because it will always be capped with Paolo/Franz/Suggs).

[GelbeWand09]

I liked Black as a prospect. I liked the pick when it was made. Felt like he was the clear BPA and was glad he was the pick.

I just really disliked A. how the Magic chose to use him in his rookie year and B. the way they constructed the roster in his rookie year. If he had just gotten some actual on ball reps last year, I think he'd be even further along his developmental path this year and he's already pretty good this year!

I also think Weltman should get down on his knees and thank the lord that Fultz completely fell apart physically and Cole completely fell apart mentally and essentially made things super easy on the front office and coaching staff.

Not only on ball reps. He would be finishing better too at the rim and not getting blocked that much. Learning to finish against NBA length is probably one of the main issues for guards in their first 1-2 years. Due to AB's role in his freshman season, he's had almost no opportunity to learn that.

Playing time has literally no bearing on being able to do better the following year. Totally silly. Payton Pritchard had three years of 13-19 minutes and him playing well this year isn't because he was "stunted by the Celtics". Also people were using the opposite excuse when Elfrid was here that he wasn't learning enough because we were playing him too often. Guys like Scoot and Jalen Green certainly aren't learning more by playing a lot of minutes.

Especially the bolded part. He's having practices and scrimmages all year against his teammates who are literally top tier defenders and a top team in defense two years in a row. That's more valuable than any on-ball reps he would've gotten versus the Wizards or whatever.

AB was a tertiary piece to a team with their "big 3" of young guys already and we were never going to continually prop forward our rookies as development pieces over where the rest of the team was ready to compete. As many things as he did better than Fultz, there were pretty much equal in on court advanced stat value (Fultz was slightly better, neither great).

This is all separate from should he have played, what I would prefer, would it have hurt him to get those reps, etc. I think most of us agree we wanted to see more of him and it wouldn't have hurt him at all....

But there is just no evidence at all that on-ball reps carry on in any meaningful way. If this was the case, we wouldn't be having "Suggs shouldn't be the PG" arguments for three years now. The only thing I feel really translates in terms of PT is confidence, which isn't nothing, but you're not grinding XP mobs and getting bonus skills by playing 5 more more minutes and playing slightly more on-ball (because it will always be capped with Paolo/Franz/Suggs).

? Not sure why your answer got such a aggressive tone. Even more writing silly, despite what you mention as silly wasnt even part of my post. I wrote role. Which means that he stood in the corner ballwatching as a 3&D SF instead of handling the ball. And yes you learn to drive against NBA length with reps not watching others drive. Practice intensity & pressure got nothing to do with in game situations. Neither me or Knightro wrote something about playing time or minutes.

And yes you get better/adding skills in the offseason, but finishing vs NBA length is a in game learning experince and nothing you can really simulate in the summer against 6'3 coaches or in the short team practices (compared to other sports like soccer) of NBA teams.

[SOUL]

? I wrote role. Which means that he stood in the corner ballwatching as a 3&D SF instead of handling the ball. And yes you learn to drive against NBA length with reps not watching others drive.

Take out minutes and insert role then. The same question applies. Why isn't Suggs learning better PG skills if he's largely had reps his first few years? I just don't think playing in a game means you're going to "finish in the paint better", especially if you're going against WCJ, Goga, Isaac, Franz, Paolo, etc in practice every week.

(Also if we're speaking about on-ball reps off the bench, you're looking at Ingles more than Fultz if we're talking about who may have took valuable on court time away, but it probably would have been at the cost of some wins. People want both development and wins, only a few posters were really okay with trading those in reality.)

Again, it doesn't hurt. Very few scenarios where a player doesn't benefit at all unless you're like, Ulrich Chomche or some super raw prospect that needs seasoning in the G League first. I just think it does a disservice to development programs, assistant coaches, practices, off-season work, etc, when attributing a lack of a skill because of not having a specific role right away.

Practice intensity & pressure got nothing to do with in game situations. Neither me or Knightro wrote something about playing time or minutes.

Kobe famously said that anything he's tried in game that looks tough or low percentage was something he'd done in practice thousands of times, which gives him the confidence to apply that in-game in basically any situation.

I just like to keep the onus on players for at least some things. Feel like so many people make excuses for guys when it's just the reality of their skillset. Same with Jett and his defense. Can argue all we want about his role or minutes, but his defense sucks because he's just a weak defender in general and doesn't have those instincts or physical profile for it. Doesn't matter what sort of experience he gets in a game. Unless the same team runs the exact same sets next game, which they won't.

I don't think AB's finishing is as much of a negative of Jett's defense, but his slightly shaky handles and still not filled out frame makes him susceptible to having weaker drives.

[SOUL]

It's just a small thing btw, I don't disagree about wanting to see AB in a slightly expanded role last year, regardless if it meant less Fultz, Cole, Ingles, whoever, I would've wanted it. I just don't think anything he's showing/not showing this year is meaningfully affected by actual on-court stuff last year. It's due to the work he's put in behind the scenes, as well as him still having weaknesses as any 20 year old 2nd year guys in a "meh" draft do.

[basketballRob]

It seems like Black could easily have 10 apg lately if the team could make the average amount of his potential assists. He's averaging 7.9 potential apg for the season. Jrue Holiday averages 8.1 and Derrick White 7.6. Suggs 9.0 potential apg.

Black and Suggs are right where they need to be while playing with 2 high usage players like Franz and Paolo. The team just needs to start making the average amount of open shots.

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[GelbeWand09]

? I wrote role. Which means that he stood in the corner ballwatching as a 3&D SF instead of handling the ball. And yes you learn to drive against NBA length with reps not watching others drive.

Take out minutes and insert role then. The same question applies. Why isn't Suggs learning better PG skills if he's largely had reps his first few years? I just don't think playing in a game means you're going to "finish in the paint better", especially if you're going against WCJ, Goga, Isaac, Franz, Paolo, etc in practice every week.

(Also if we're speaking about on-ball reps off the bench, you're looking at Ingles more than Fultz if we're talking about who may have took valuable on court time away, but it probably would have been at the cost of some wins. People want both development and wins, only a few posters were really okay with trading those in reality.)

Again, it doesn't hurt. Very few scenarios where a player doesn't benefit at all unless you're like, Ulrich Chomche or some super raw prospect that needs seasoning in the G League first. I just think it does a disservice to development programs, assistant coaches, practices, off-season work, etc, when attributing a lack of a skill because of not having a specific role right away.

Practice intensity & pressure got nothing to do with in game situations. Neither me or Knightro wrote something about playing time or minutes.

Kobe famously said that anything he's tried in game that looks tough or low percentage was something he'd done in practice thousands of times, which gives him the confidence to apply that in-game in basically any situation.

I just like to keep the onus on players for at least some things. Feel like so many people make excuses for guys when it's just the reality of their skillset. Same with Jett and his defense. Can argue all we want about his role or minutes, but his defense sucks because he's just a weak defender in general and doesn't have those instincts or physical profile for it. Doesn't matter what sort of experience he gets in a game. Unless the same team runs the exact same sets next game, which they won't.

I don't think AB's finishing is as much of a negative of Jett's defense, but his slightly shaky handles and still not filled out frame makes him susceptible to having weaker drives.

Because Suggs got big ballhandling problems that cant be fixed at his age. I'm probably the No.1 guy saying you wont improve Handles much as a adult like you wont get much better ballhandling skills as a Soccer player as a adult. Reason i never wanted Jabari, McLemore or Mario. For AB its about reading the defense, shifting tempo, experience NBA guard pressure & length, using fakes, angles, using his body better to protect the ball/shot... + adding strentgh like you wrote. Learning what works against a 7fter you havent played yet against in in game situations. I dont write he needs to learn a new skill, because you either has that skill at that point or not, its about adjusting that skill to longer and more athletic players, than he faced in College or HS.

Again, i wrote about finishing against length. You cant tell me that this is a skill you learn better in practice than in NBA games. Guards become better at this experience it in real game situations. This got nothing to do with Jett, Minutes, Pritchard.... . I'm talking about finishing of guards. Nothing more.
Thats not even a critism, because thats something EVERY NBA guard expierences. Sure, for me he is lacking lift when he drives, so its more important for him to learn to use his body and angles, because he cant jump over defenders like Westbrook. And WB was blocked a ton as a rookie. + he needs a floater, like he used in the Clippers game one time. Or another example is Dipo, who was 55% at the rim in his first year and improved almost every year til he was a Veteran/injured, up to 65-69%.
AB would be better at finishing now, if he was used as a driver/ballhandler more as a rookie. If you dont believe that, than we should end this, because i wont change your take and you not mine. I'm with you on most of the things you said but some stuff you learn (or better said adjust) better in game.

But all good, you are still one of my favorite posters.

[GelbeWand09]

Btw I love AB's progression this season. Even in the last 2 games with bad shooting % i'm happy that he gets to the rim at this rate to get blocked by AD & co. The finishing will come, getting there is much more important.