poll: LWOS - Never Be the Same Between Wagner and Banchero

Message Boar · Post #21 » by **Message Boar** » Mon Dec 2, 2024 6:58 am

I think in W-L and ratings etc, we might very well look the same, maybe even worse in Paolo's first games back as we adjust. A lot of it's down to that our schedule can't stay this easy forever. And realistically Paolo does a lot of the things Franz is doing now in terms of role, and he isn't particularly known for being more efficient at it.

Long-term and in the playoffs however, having both of our best players out there will make our offense more dangerous, unpredictable and give it a higher upside. Better teams will be able to deal with one 6'10 forward who can slash, playmake and score in a variety of ways (look at the Clippers game); dealing with two at the same time will be significantly harder. We also gain the option to stagger their minutes. It's just up to Mosley and his staff to run an offense where we benefit optimally from having them both out there.

drsd · Post #22 » by **drsd** » Mon Dec 2, 2024 7:36 am

SHAQ32 wrote:Remember when we picked Evan Fournier (and Elfrid Payton) over Victor Oladipo

And remember that Oladipo spent most of the rest of his career injured whilst being highly paid?

zaymon · Post #23 » by **zaymon** » Mon Dec 2, 2024 7:49 am

If we start losing after Paolo return it should be very motivating for him. I expect full defensive involvement and will to move the ball.
Franz is great at leading the offense without dominating it. Banchero should learn from him.

Post #24 » by **SOUL** » Mon Dec 2, 2024 9:00 am

Feel like there's this weird (and false) narrative that they can't play together because of this win streak .. even though they had a 9 game win streak together last year and we've basically been a .500 + team with Paolo on this team since we drafted him. It's always been predicated on Franz staying aggressive and both of them being able to hit threes with more regularity and just getting better as they get older.

Sure, involving Franz on more on-ball actions moving forward will obviously help us overall, but they've played well off of each other so far. About as much as you can expect for two young players with some flaws that are getting better and better.

KillMonger · Post #25 » by **KillMonger** » Mon Dec 2, 2024 10:16 am

zaymon wrote:If we start losing after Paolo return it should be very motivating for him. I expect full defensive involvement and will to move the ball.
Franz is great at leading the offense without dominating it. Banchero should learn from him.

i mean this statement is misleading....paolo is very unselfish

jezzerinho · Post #26 » by **jezzerinho** » Mon Dec 2, 2024 10:54 am

Perfectly reasonable article. Perfectly reasonable statement.

The dynamic has changed. Franz has shown what many wondered if he was capable of showing - whether he can be the alpha and take an offense on his shoulders. The answer was emphatic.

So that certainly changes the dynamic between the 2 guys. For the better or the worse? Who knows?

The other big change is that we look so much better running more PnR, with Goga as the main roll man. When Paolo comes back itll be tough to abandon what has been working so well for a more Paolo-centric, iso-heavy attack.

So, its fair to say things wont be the same and decisions will have to be made. Also fair to wonder if ego/ambition/stats/accolades will play a factor (I tend to doubt it - Suggs will have a huge role here in setting the team tone).

But there will have to be adjustments and - if Mose and the players get it right - it could be a springboard to really take off. I agree though that we wont look the same.

JoshuaPotter · Post #27 » by **JoshuaPotter** » Mon Dec 2, 2024 1:37 pm

Oh no we have 2 potential repeatable all-stars on our squad. Goodness gracious whatever will we do?

jezzerinho · Post #28 » by **jezzerinho** » Mon Dec 2, 2024 1:42 pm

JoshuaPotter wrote:Oh no we have 2 potential repeatable all-stars on our squad. Goodness gracious whatever will we do?

I imagine what we will do is try to maximise their potential, by working out an offense that suits them both.

zaymon · Post #29 » by **zaymon** » Mon Dec 2, 2024 2:39 pm

KillMonger wrote:
zaymon wrote:If we start losing after Paolo return it should be very motivating for him. I expect full defensive involvement and will to move the ball.
Franz is great at leading the offense without dominating it. Banchero should learn from him.

i mean this statement is misleading....paolo is very unselfish

Well its not what i meant but i understand i was not specific enough. Still he is not as unselfish as Franz.

KillMonger · Post #30 » by **KillMonger** » Mon Dec 2, 2024 3:13 pm

zaymon wrote:
KillMonger wrote:
zaymon wrote:If we start losing after Paolo return it should be very motivating for him. I expect full defensive involvement and will to move the ball.
Franz is great at leading the offense without dominating it. Banchero should learn from him.

i mean this statement is misleading....paolo is very unselfish

Well its not what i meant but i understand i was not specific enough. Still he is not as unselfish as Franz.

in what way? before he went down while it was sort of close he had more assists than franz....they were playing together just fine before paolo went down

msmoore66 · Post #31 » by **msmoore66** » Mon Dec 2, 2024 6:06 pm

RookieStar wrote:
msmoore66 wrote:The only sane thing to do is trade them both, right now.

Yes... make sure to different teams though so they wont clash again.

Time to build around Cole and Jett

Exactly! Perhaps we should trade one for Vuc, if we are lucky he might be available.

three3d · Post #32 » by **three3d** » Mon Dec 2, 2024 6:35 pm

What do Paolo and Franz both do really well for 6’10” forwards? They both can put the ball on the floor and get to the basket very well but in different ways. Franz has ELITE footwork and euro step, Paolo has got some handles and great vision and also great at drawing fouls going to the rim.

You spread these guys out on the floor, DO NOT put them on the same side and you run PnR and the Triangle Offense… NOBODY stands still everybody is moving screening and cutting. Paolo and Franz are equally capable of setting up the offense, the defense will dictate what side we attack from . You can’t double Paolo and Franz at the same time, it’s going to be the way we win it all finally.

three3d · Post #33 » by **three3d** » Mon Dec 2, 2024 6:42 pm

I think we have ourselves a Michael Jordan, Scotty Pippen type situation here with Paolo and Franz. I’m not saying they are those players but what we can do with both of them is similar with the right system around them.

RookieStar · Post #34 » by **RookieStar** » Mon Dec 2, 2024 9:38 pm

msmoore66 wrote:
RookieStar wrote:
msmoore66 wrote:The only sane thing to do is trade them both, right now.

Yes... make sure to different teams though so they wont clash again.

Time to build around Cole and Jett

Exactly! Perhaps we should trade one for Vuc, if we are lucky he might be available.

I think CHI would do Franz and WCJ alone for Vuc 8-)

VFX · Post #35 » by **VFX** » Mon Dec 2, 2024 10:27 pm

They will be better when Paolo returns.

Why? Because Orlando just needs guys that can actually put the ball in the basket.

Outside of Franz and Moe, the rest of the team isn't as reliable on that side of the floor. Suggs has had some games and KCP has a few games recently. Thats about it.

That being said, there are definitely going to be some bumps in the road when Paolo returns. The offense is going to change again and its not going to look as fluid as it does now albeit with less talent on the floor.

three3d · Post #36 » by **three3d** » Mon Dec 2, 2024 11:10 pm

VFX wrote:They will be better when Paolo returns.

Why? Because Orlando just needs guys that can actually put the ball in the basket.

Outside of Franz and Moe, the rest of the team isn't as reliable on that side of the floor. Suggs has had some games and KCP has a few games recently. Thats about it.

That being said, there are definitely going to be some bumps in the road when Paolo returns. The offense is going to change again and its not going to look as fluid as it does now albeit with less talent on the floor.

It’s no coincidence the ball has started moving much better and scoring is up so I don’t think it’s Suggs or KCP putting together nice games. Whatever is happening is working and Paolo has to see it from the bench and buy into it.

ReadyOrlando · Post #37 » by **ReadyOrlando** » Tue Dec 3, 2024 4:11 am

Skybox wrote:
fendilim wrote:Yeap, things will never be the same. There will be factions of pro Wagner as Alpha and another faction of Banchero as alpha.

Truth be told, they both work together very well.

They really could be much better together and they've still got plenty of time to figure it out...I think Franz IS the PG for this starting unit and we should just lean into it. I could easily imagine his assists jumping up towards 7 or 8 per game and Paolo could still push for 6 or 7, just based on kicking it out from a crowded lane (which I presume is the whole offensive "system" for now)...I'd love to see them both flirting with triple doubles regularly and I don't see why that's not a realistic possibility, with this roster. I'm cautiously optimistic that they can both play at a true All-Star level at the same time...but we've rarely seen it yet.

Hopefully, this stretch somehow changes the dynamic...Franz has been great from the day he arrived but I'm afraid that sometimes the sum of Paolo + Franz hasn't been equal to the two parts...what we really want to see is the chemistry go to another, more efficient, compounded, synergistic level...One + One = Three or more.

Well said!

JoshuaPotter · Post #38 » by **JoshuaPotter** » Tue Dec 3, 2024 3:18 pm

three3d wrote:
VFX wrote:They will be better when Paolo returns.

Why? Because Orlando just needs guys that can actually put the ball in the basket.

Outside of Franz and Moe, the rest of the team isn't as reliable on that side of the floor. Suggs has had some games and KCP has a few games recently. Thats about it.

That being said, there are definitely going to be some bumps in the road when Paolo returns. The offense is going to change again and its not going to look as fluid as it does now albeit with less talent on the floor.

It’s no coincidence the ball has started moving much better and scoring is up so I don’t think it’s Suggs or KCP putting together nice games. Whatever is happening is working and Paolo has to see it from the bench and buy into it.

Yes imma gonna disagree a smidge. We definitely have needed an answer in Suggs / KCP box score numbers as statistically they were beyond past due for their norm.

Good grief, this isn't me asking for monster game as KCP especially has gone from not performing offensively to over performing offensively. This is just asking for a "ok be hot for a couple games" then return to normal. We have had plenty of games already where an nba middle of the road 3-ball easily could have resulted in a blowout against the other team or a win against one of our losses.

To act like Suggs and KCP not playing well isn't a part of the last couple wins is a very odd thing to say.

drsd · Post #39 » by **drsd** » Tue Dec 3, 2024 6:32 pm

JoshuaPotter wrote:Good grief, this isn't me asking for monster game as KCP especially has gone from not performing offensively to over performing offensively. This is just asking for a "ok be hot for a couple games" then return to normal. We have had plenty of games already where an nba middle of the road 3-ball easily could have resulted in a blowout against the other team or a win against one of our losses.

To act like Suggs and KCP not playing well isn't a part of the last couple wins is a very odd thing to say.

The funny thing about Caldwell-Pope's stats is, that where it is true that he is having his worst career as a three-point shooter, but he is also having his best-ever 2pt% and FT%.

For Suggs, his 2pt% and 3pt% have dipped this season. And that is a real concern.

Last Guardian · Post #40 » by **Last Guardian** » Tue Dec 3, 2024 6:43 pm

three3d wrote:
VFX wrote:They will be better when Paolo returns.

Why? Because Orlando just needs guys that can actually put the ball in the basket.

Outside of Franz and Moe, the rest of the team isn't as reliable on that side of the floor. Suggs has had some games and KCP has a few games recently. Thats about it.

That being said, there are definitely going to be some bumps in the road when Paolo returns. The offense is going to change again and its not going to look as fluid as it does now albeit with less talent on the floor.

It’s no coincidence the ball has started moving much better and scoring is up so I don’t think it’s Suggs or KCP putting together nice games. Whatever is happening is working and Paolo has to see it from the bench and buy into it.

Maybe there are stats that disagree with me but eye test Orlando still isn't a good offensive team during this run. To me, it seems like we are so hard to score on that we just have a minute of good offense and we take over the game. Paolo is needed offensively to beat the best teams.

I think the only thing for Paolo to understand here is how Franz can not only be the primary offensive option but also still be an excellent defender. Franz is showing there are no excuses. You may have the most responsibility on offense, but you shouldn't take defense off.

Tonight is a good test. Knicks have highest offensive rating in the league. Can this version of the team generate enough offense to win?

What happens when Banchero returns?