The Tim Connelly Thread (prev./still Fire Him)

[guest81]

Tim Connelly will forever be know for his 2 horrible gigantic trades.

First paying about twice market value for Rudy Gobert.
Then giving away KAT for Julius Randle who actively makes teams worse every time he takes the court.

And the first trade caused financial problems that were a factor for the 2nd.

Just wait until Randle opts in to his player option next summer and we lose Naz and NAW as a result.

And those 4 first round picks and 2 pickswaps still outstanding come to pass.

Lol what? Is any of the players connelly gave up for Rudy even in the league anymore? Wolves got the defensive player of the year for peanuts

[winforlose]

Wait a minute…you can’t be serious

1. You reject the premise that you need to source your claim to support your argument? I’m not the one claiming anyone said something to support their argument. You are. So again stop trying to deflect and provide the source and date for when Connelly apparently felt pressured by the Denver ownership to make trades, to support your argument that Connelly would force his position with Taylor if he tried the same. The fact that you are so upset by this is just telling on yourself that you made a dumb claim.

2. So Taylor is penny pinching this year and saving big on not having to pay KAT’s raises next year. But sure to you logically that doesn’t make sense. Why would it?

3. I called weeks ago that Connelly could be fired with how bad this season has gone. I welcome you to join the adult discussion once you provide the source of your claim that Connelly voiced his displeasure at being forced to do trades… considering you whine that people call you unlikable for not agreeing with your points I don’t think you could actually handle that.

1. This is good enough for what you’re asking for. https://thednvr.com/tim-connelly-is-heading-to-minnesota-and-we-all-know-whos-to-blame/. Regarding your not making claims that need proof, that is total horse manure. Your entire argument is speculation that you offer no proof. You have not one single source that says TC didn’t want to make the KAT trade.

2. Again you ignore what I said. If it was about saving money why bring back Randle? Why not send him to a 3rd team? Also, Randle is more likely to opt in than out. Who is gonna pay him 30+ and they need us to help them do it anyway because without bird rights signing Randle to the kind of money he wants is tricky. I won’t continue a conversation in which the other party refuses to address what I point out. I am 99% sure you are trolling and any response that doesn’t explain why the Wolves didn’t attempt to save more than 2 million (and change,) this year will be deemed trolling. Also please explain the timing of the trade. Why October instead of February?

3. You keep going back to personal attacks, and you wonder why I think you are childish? We agree that TC should be fired. It seems the only thing we disagree on is that TC would use the option to leave if he was forced into making trades he doesn’t want to make by ownership. It is no secret that he and Denver ownership had disagreements, you could have googled it. Is it that you think TC couldn’t get hired? I mean at this point I don’t even know why you arguing? Is it that you want us to hate Glen? To blame Glen for moving Karl. I already hate Glen for just about every draft before Ant, not to mention the Khan era, and all the other horrible hires.

1. Huh? I want proof that Connelly was upset for being forced to make moves because of Denver's ownership, like you claimed, as a source FOR YOUR SPECULATION that Connelly absolutely would stand up for himself in such a situation. The best part is that this entire article is speculation. It could be a word for word description of Glen Taylor, but I guess speculation is allowed when you need it to pretend it supports your claim.

2. This isn't a serious post. Why didn't Connelly find a third team to take on the player who was traded off of injury, is a horrible defender and a mediocre offensive player who is a ball stopper, and so far hasn't played well and makes 33 million dollars for two seasons? What a silly argument. The Wolves were in a unique situation where taking on that player would still save them a lot of money. I have addressed your points, you just don't like that I'm not agreeing with your faulty logic, so you whine and call people childish for not agreeing with you.

3. Oh the guy who started and never stopped personally attacking me, is mad that he is being attacked in response. How about you just back up your claims instead of deflecting and playing the victim.

1. My source about him being forced to make trades was Shrink who I quoted. It is hardly the first time I heard about conflict between Denver ownership and TC. I also remember the Wolves selling first round draft picks like in the year we got Rubio and Flynn and traded away the pick that became Mario Chalmers, (relevant as president for similar disputes.) Denver media talking about TC butting heads with ownership in that article I quoted you is another example of how it isn’t a secret. Your counter argument is that non of this is directly from TC, but what is directly from TC is adding an opt out to his Denver contract and using it. The thing speaks for itself, and the common knowledge of issues with Denver ownership confirms it. Now please provide any quote or source saying Glen Taylor forced the KAT trade.


2. Please provide a source showing that no team is willing to accept Randle’s contract. Your statement is that there is literally no market for him, prove it. Also prove that they couldn’t have taken lesser contracts and moved those to third teams. Randle didn’t need to be included to make the money work as long as Robinson and filler was added instead. Your entire argument is speculation and you offer no proof while demanding I prove something that I said is common sense and how he SHOULD handle the situation.

3. I am bored with the circular nature of this. I provide support for my position that he wasn’t forced to make the deal (he wanted DDV, the timing is suspect if the goal is to save money, the personnel are suspect if the goal is to save money, ect…,) and all you do is say not good enough while providing nothing yourself. You cannot even prove that Randle will opt out next year. If he doesn’t the savings won’t be that great next year either. You started a tangent based on a common sense observation and refuse to justify your opinion that it isn’t common sense. The best argument you have made is that it just isn’t done, but the opt out clauses in Denver and Minnesota are proof in and of themselves that TC can fight back against ownership interference. Make a strong counter argument with facts to support your opinion or I just won’t respond again. I don’t like to feed trolls and sadly I fear that I have been doing so far

[winforlose]

Tim Connelly will forever be know for his 2 horrible gigantic trades.

First paying about twice market value for Rudy Gobert.
Then giving away KAT for Julius Randle who actively makes teams worse every time he takes the court.

And the first trade caused financial problems that were a factor for the 2nd.

Just wait until Randle opts in to his player option next summer and we lose Naz and NAW as a result.

And those 4 first round picks and 2 pickswaps still outstanding come to pass.

Lol what? Is any of the players connelly gave up for Rudy even in the league anymore? Wolves got the defensive player of the year for peanuts

Walker Kessler, Jarred Vanderbilt (starts for the Lakers,) Malik Beasley (was starting for the Bucks last year,) is averaging 28 MPG this year with Detroit. Wolves got DOP, but it wasn’t for peanuts.

[TimberKat]

Tim Connelly will forever be know for his 2 horrible gigantic trades.

First paying about twice market value for Rudy Gobert.
Then giving away KAT for Julius Randle who actively makes teams worse every time he takes the court.

And the first trade caused financial problems that were a factor for the 2nd.

Just wait until Randle opts in to his player option next summer and we lose Naz and NAW as a result.

And those 4 first round picks and 2 pickswaps still outstanding come to pass.

Lol what? Is any of the players connelly gave up for Rudy even in the league anymore? Wolves got the defensive player of the year for peanuts

Walker Kessler, Jarred Vanderbilt (starts for the Lakers,) Malik Beasley (was starting for the Bucks last year,) is averaging 28 MPG this year with Detroit. Wolves got DOP, but it wasn’t for peanuts.

Those players maybe a good complement for Towns+Ant. Given today's team, it there room for them? Beasley has been with 3 teams since the trade and Kessler is ok but not great so far. Vanderbilt is a question mark.

[Mattya]

1. This is good enough for what you’re asking for. https://thednvr.com/tim-connelly-is-heading-to-minnesota-and-we-all-know-whos-to-blame/. Regarding your not making claims that need proof, that is total horse manure. Your entire argument is speculation that you offer no proof. You have not one single source that says TC didn’t want to make the KAT trade.

2. Again you ignore what I said. If it was about saving money why bring back Randle? Why not send him to a 3rd team? Also, Randle is more likely to opt in than out. Who is gonna pay him 30+ and they need us to help them do it anyway because without bird rights signing Randle to the kind of money he wants is tricky. I won’t continue a conversation in which the other party refuses to address what I point out. I am 99% sure you are trolling and any response that doesn’t explain why the Wolves didn’t attempt to save more than 2 million (and change,) this year will be deemed trolling. Also please explain the timing of the trade. Why October instead of February?

3. You keep going back to personal attacks, and you wonder why I think you are childish? We agree that TC should be fired. It seems the only thing we disagree on is that TC would use the option to leave if he was forced into making trades he doesn’t want to make by ownership. It is no secret that he and Denver ownership had disagreements, you could have googled it. Is it that you think TC couldn’t get hired? I mean at this point I don’t even know why you arguing? Is it that you want us to hate Glen? To blame Glen for moving Karl. I already hate Glen for just about every draft before Ant, not to mention the Khan era, and all the other horrible hires.

1. Huh? I want proof that Connelly was upset for being forced to make moves because of Denver's ownership, like you claimed, as a source FOR YOUR SPECULATION that Connelly absolutely would stand up for himself in such a situation. The best part is that this entire article is speculation. It could be a word for word description of Glen Taylor, but I guess speculation is allowed when you need it to pretend it supports your claim.

2. This isn't a serious post. Why didn't Connelly find a third team to take on the player who was traded off of injury, is a horrible defender and a mediocre offensive player who is a ball stopper, and so far hasn't played well and makes 33 million dollars for two seasons? What a silly argument. The Wolves were in a unique situation where taking on that player would still save them a lot of money. I have addressed your points, you just don't like that I'm not agreeing with your faulty logic, so you whine and call people childish for not agreeing with you.

3. Oh the guy who started and never stopped personally attacking me, is mad that he is being attacked in response. How about you just back up your claims instead of deflecting and playing the victim.

1. My source about him being forced to make trades was Shrink who I quoted. It is hardly the first time I heard about conflict between Denver ownership and TC. I also remember the Wolves selling first round draft picks like in the year we got Rubio and Flynn and traded away the pick that became Mario Chalmers, (relevant as president for similar disputes.) Denver media talking about TC butting heads with ownership in that article I quoted you is another example of how it isn’t a secret. Your counter argument is that non of this is directly from TC, but what is directly from TC is adding an opt out to his Denver contract and using it. The thing speaks for itself, and the common knowledge of issues with Denver ownership confirms it. Now please provide any quote or source saying Glen Taylor forced the KAT trade.


2. Please provide a source showing that no team is willing to accept Randle’s contract. Your statement is that there is literally no market for him, prove it. Also prove that they couldn’t have taken lesser contracts and moved those to third teams. Randle didn’t need to be included to make the money work as long as Robinson and filler was added instead. Your entire argument is speculation and you offer no proof while demanding I prove something that I said is common sense and how he SHOULD handle the situation.

3. I am bored with the circular nature of this. I provide support for my position that he wasn’t forced to make the deal (he wanted DDV, the timing is suspect if the goal is to save money, the personnel are suspect if the goal is to save money, ect…,) and all you do is say not good enough while providing nothing yourself. You cannot even prove that Randle will opt out next year. If he doesn’t the savings won’t be that great next year either. You started a tangent based on a common sense observation and refuse to justify your opinion that it isn’t common sense. The best argument you have made is that it just isn’t done, but the opt out clauses in Denver and Minnesota are proof in and of themselves that TC can fight back against ownership interference. Make a strong counter argument with facts to support your opinion or I just won’t respond again. I don’t like to feed trolls and sadly I fear that I have been doing so far

1. Huh are you lost on how speculation and sourcing works? If you make a factual claim(like somebody said something) to back up speculation, you better provide it, you still haven't sourced anything remotely close to what you claimed. As a matter of fact you posted a speculative article as to why Connelly left. I haven't falsely claimed someone said something or felt some way to back up my speculation. I really hope I don't need to post the definition of speculation. I know I don't because you are okay with the unsourced speculation in that article.

2. Again this is speculation, not something I need to source, because guess what I'm not making a claim about something somebody said. I'll keep repeating this for as many times as it take for you to understand how sourcing and speculation work. So no, IMO nobody is going to take Randle for 33 million dollars of cap space over the next two years with the second being a player option. Even if teams aren't taking on all 33 million who are the teams that are going to do that with the current cap rules? The Pistons and give us Tobias Harris's even worse contract? You know better on how cap space trades work than this. Why couldn't they use Mitchel Robinson's money instead? Really? Probably because trades need to work within a certain percentage. You aren't honestly arguing that the Knicks were going to be able to come up with 20 million in filler to make that trade work right? You thought they were going to add Bridges or Hart to that deal? Come on please think of a better argument than this.

3. Your mad that I said the source for "tim connnelly didn't like being forced to make moves in Denver" was a source you provided with no such statement? and you are trying to make me sound unreasonable? L O L.

You are just filled with logical fallacies to support these arguments. "Oh he liked DDV" clearly in your mind that is reason enough to support that Connelly would trade KAT for such a weak package. How are the personnel suspect if he is trying to save money? All you just did was display such an utter lack of knowledge of how trades need to work. While denying that this trade is saving money. All while the Wolves are now locked into only trading for salaries at 33 million dollars or less, while not being able to aggregate players in trades, meaning no trades for a star players, and save drastically more money in the coming years. Oh yea, thanks Gobert for taking that pay cut, surely that will go to good use to make the team better... oh wait.

Yes I'm the troll because you got called out for making a bs claim and then sourcing it with a speculative article with no such quote. All while you started attacking me, then cried about being attacked, while continuing to attack... As the saying goes "hit dogs will holler"

[winforlose]

1. Huh? I want proof that Connelly was upset for being forced to make moves because of Denver's ownership, like you claimed, as a source FOR YOUR SPECULATION that Connelly absolutely would stand up for himself in such a situation. The best part is that this entire article is speculation. It could be a word for word description of Glen Taylor, but I guess speculation is allowed when you need it to pretend it supports your claim.

2. This isn't a serious post. Why didn't Connelly find a third team to take on the player who was traded off of injury, is a horrible defender and a mediocre offensive player who is a ball stopper, and so far hasn't played well and makes 33 million dollars for two seasons? What a silly argument. The Wolves were in a unique situation where taking on that player would still save them a lot of money. I have addressed your points, you just don't like that I'm not agreeing with your faulty logic, so you whine and call people childish for not agreeing with you.

3. Oh the guy who started and never stopped personally attacking me, is mad that he is being attacked in response. How about you just back up your claims instead of deflecting and playing the victim.

1. My source about him being forced to make trades was Shrink who I quoted. It is hardly the first time I heard about conflict between Denver ownership and TC. I also remember the Wolves selling first round draft picks like in the year we got Rubio and Flynn and traded away the pick that became Mario Chalmers, (relevant as president for similar disputes.) Denver media talking about TC butting heads with ownership in that article I quoted you is another example of how it isn’t a secret. Your counter argument is that non of this is directly from TC, but what is directly from TC is adding an opt out to his Denver contract and using it. The thing speaks for itself, and the common knowledge of issues with Denver ownership confirms it. Now please provide any quote or source saying Glen Taylor forced the KAT trade.


2. Please provide a source showing that no team is willing to accept Randle’s contract. Your statement is that there is literally no market for him, prove it. Also prove that they couldn’t have taken lesser contracts and moved those to third teams. Randle didn’t need to be included to make the money work as long as Robinson and filler was added instead. Your entire argument is speculation and you offer no proof while demanding I prove something that I said is common sense and how he SHOULD handle the situation.

3. I am bored with the circular nature of this. I provide support for my position that he wasn’t forced to make the deal (he wanted DDV, the timing is suspect if the goal is to save money, the personnel are suspect if the goal is to save money, ect…,) and all you do is say not good enough while providing nothing yourself. You cannot even prove that Randle will opt out next year. If he doesn’t the savings won’t be that great next year either. You started a tangent based on a common sense observation and refuse to justify your opinion that it isn’t common sense. The best argument you have made is that it just isn’t done, but the opt out clauses in Denver and Minnesota are proof in and of themselves that TC can fight back against ownership interference. Make a strong counter argument with facts to support your opinion or I just won’t respond again. I don’t like to feed trolls and sadly I fear that I have been doing so far

1. Huh are you lost on how speculation and sourcing works? If you make a factual claim(like somebody said something) to back up speculation, you better provide it, you still haven't sourced anything remotely close to what you claimed. As a matter of fact you posted a speculative article as to why Connelly left. I haven't falsely claimed someone said something or felt some way to back up my speculation. I really hope I don't need to post the definition of speculation. I know I don't because you are okay with the unsourced speculation in that article.

2. Again this is speculation, not something I need to source, because guess what I'm not making a claim about something somebody said. I'll keep repeating this for as many times as it take for you to understand how sourcing and speculation work. So no, IMO nobody is going to take Randle for 33 million dollars of cap space over the next two years with the second being a player option. Even if teams aren't taking on all 33 million who are the teams that are going to do that with the current cap rules? The Pistons and give us Tobias Harris's even worse contract? You know better on how cap space trades work than this. Why couldn't they use Mitchel Robinson's money instead? Really? Probably because trades need to work within a certain percentage. You aren't honestly arguing that the Knicks were going to be able to come up with 20 million in filler to make that trade work right? You thought they were going to add Bridges or Hart to that deal? Come on please think of a better argument than this.

3. Your mad that I said the source for "tim connnelly didn't like being forced to make moves in Denver" was a source you provided with no such statement? and you are trying to make me sound unreasonable? L O L.

You are just filled with logical fallacies to support these arguments. "Oh he liked DDV" clearly in your mind that is reason enough to support that Connelly would trade KAT for such a weak package. How are the personnel suspect if he is trying to save money? All you just did was display such an utter lack of knowledge of how trades need to work. While denying that this trade is saving money. All while the Wolves are now locked into only trading for salaries at 33 million dollars or less, while not being able to aggregate players in trades, meaning no trades for a star players, and save drastically more money in the coming years. Oh yea, thanks Gobert for taking that pay cut, surely that will go to good use to make the team better... oh wait.

Yes I'm the troll because you got called out for making a bs claim and then sourcing it with a speculative article with no such quote. All while you started attacking me, then cried about being attacked, while continuing to attack... As the saying goes "hit dogs will holler"

1. I quoted Shrink and believe Shrink based on my understanding of Denver with TC. For me, that is good enough. If you don’t have to source speculation, then I don’t need to justify an opinion about what TC should do.

2. You tell me I don’t understand trade rules, yet you fail to grasp that the money out of NYK need not match our money out if a third team is involved and has space to absorb salary. The only thing required is that neither the Wolves nor NYK nor other first apron plus team adds money. Your argument that Randle has no trade value is literally the only way your position can sustain itself. It ignores the unusual timing of a trade (not many happen in early October just before camp,) it ignores TC’s continued interest in DDV, it ignores Glen Taylor’s statements that he is willing to pay luxury tax, and it ignores the fact that as money saving trades go, this one saved extremely little. In fact by your own logic Randle has no market and TC would know it. That means he was counting on Randle opting in next year, which further reduces the savings.

3. Common understanding of situations is based on sports reporting and sources. It wasn’t one person speculating. It is the common knowledge of the Denver Nuggets basketball community. That TC began putting opt outs into his contracts should tell you how he feels about being micro managed by Owners. But again you don’t address the opt out clauses, or the timing, or the fact that other teams are interested in TC. Your entire argument is that TC wouldn’t use his leverage from the opt out. Again, I gave an OPINION that he should publicly announce his departure from the team ASAP if he wasn’t behind the trade. This entire thing is you trying to play gotcha based on an opinion and my quoting a fellow board member who I happen to believe. This is the definition of a childish game, and trolling, and I am done. There will be no further responses.

[Mattya]

1. My source about him being forced to make trades was Shrink who I quoted. It is hardly the first time I heard about conflict between Denver ownership and TC. I also remember the Wolves selling first round draft picks like in the year we got Rubio and Flynn and traded away the pick that became Mario Chalmers, (relevant as president for similar disputes.) Denver media talking about TC butting heads with ownership in that article I quoted you is another example of how it isn’t a secret. Your counter argument is that non of this is directly from TC, but what is directly from TC is adding an opt out to his Denver contract and using it. The thing speaks for itself, and the common knowledge of issues with Denver ownership confirms it. Now please provide any quote or source saying Glen Taylor forced the KAT trade.


2. Please provide a source showing that no team is willing to accept Randle’s contract. Your statement is that there is literally no market for him, prove it. Also prove that they couldn’t have taken lesser contracts and moved those to third teams. Randle didn’t need to be included to make the money work as long as Robinson and filler was added instead. Your entire argument is speculation and you offer no proof while demanding I prove something that I said is common sense and how he SHOULD handle the situation.

3. I am bored with the circular nature of this. I provide support for my position that he wasn’t forced to make the deal (he wanted DDV, the timing is suspect if the goal is to save money, the personnel are suspect if the goal is to save money, ect…,) and all you do is say not good enough while providing nothing yourself. You cannot even prove that Randle will opt out next year. If he doesn’t the savings won’t be that great next year either. You started a tangent based on a common sense observation and refuse to justify your opinion that it isn’t common sense. The best argument you have made is that it just isn’t done, but the opt out clauses in Denver and Minnesota are proof in and of themselves that TC can fight back against ownership interference. Make a strong counter argument with facts to support your opinion or I just won’t respond again. I don’t like to feed trolls and sadly I fear that I have been doing so far

1. Huh are you lost on how speculation and sourcing works? If you make a factual claim(like somebody said something) to back up speculation, you better provide it, you still haven't sourced anything remotely close to what you claimed. As a matter of fact you posted a speculative article as to why Connelly left. I haven't falsely claimed someone said something or felt some way to back up my speculation. I really hope I don't need to post the definition of speculation. I know I don't because you are okay with the unsourced speculation in that article.

2. Again this is speculation, not something I need to source, because guess what I'm not making a claim about something somebody said. I'll keep repeating this for as many times as it take for you to understand how sourcing and speculation work. So no, IMO nobody is going to take Randle for 33 million dollars of cap space over the next two years with the second being a player option. Even if teams aren't taking on all 33 million who are the teams that are going to do that with the current cap rules? The Pistons and give us Tobias Harris's even worse contract? You know better on how cap space trades work than this. Why couldn't they use Mitchel Robinson's money instead? Really? Probably because trades need to work within a certain percentage. You aren't honestly arguing that the Knicks were going to be able to come up with 20 million in filler to make that trade work right? You thought they were going to add Bridges or Hart to that deal? Come on please think of a better argument than this.

3. Your mad that I said the source for "tim connnelly didn't like being forced to make moves in Denver" was a source you provided with no such statement? and you are trying to make me sound unreasonable? L O L.

You are just filled with logical fallacies to support these arguments. "Oh he liked DDV" clearly in your mind that is reason enough to support that Connelly would trade KAT for such a weak package. How are the personnel suspect if he is trying to save money? All you just did was display such an utter lack of knowledge of how trades need to work. While denying that this trade is saving money. All while the Wolves are now locked into only trading for salaries at 33 million dollars or less, while not being able to aggregate players in trades, meaning no trades for a star players, and save drastically more money in the coming years. Oh yea, thanks Gobert for taking that pay cut, surely that will go to good use to make the team better... oh wait.

Yes I'm the troll because you got called out for making a bs claim and then sourcing it with a speculative article with no such quote. All while you started attacking me, then cried about being attacked, while continuing to attack... As the saying goes "hit dogs will holler"

1. I quoted Shrink and believe Shrink based on my understanding of Denver with TC. For me, that is good enough. If you don’t have to source speculation, then I don’t need to justify an opinion about what TC should do.

2. You tell me I don’t understand trade rules, yet you fail to grasp that the money out of NYK need not match our money out if a third team is involved and has space to absorb salary. The only thing required is that neither the Wolves nor NYK nor other first apron plus team adds money. Your argument that Randle has no trade value is literally the only way your position can sustain itself. It ignores the unusual timing of a trade (not many happen in early October just before camp,) it ignores TC’s continued interest in DDV, it ignores Glen Taylor’s statements that he is willing to pay luxury tax, and it ignores the fact that as money saving trades go, this one saved extremely little. In fact by your own logic Randle has no market and TC would know it. That means he was counting on Randle opting in next year, which further reduces the savings.

3. Common understanding of situations is based on sports reporting and sources. It wasn’t one person speculating. It is the common knowledge of the Denver Nuggets basketball community. That TC began putting opt outs into his contracts should tell you how he feels about being micro managed by Owners. But again you don’t address the opt out clauses, or the timing, or the fact that other teams are interested in TC. Your entire argument is that TC wouldn’t use his leverage from the opt out. Again, I gave an OPINION that he should publicly announce his departure from the team ASAP if he wasn’t behind the trade. This entire thing is you trying to play gotcha based on an opinion and my quoting a fellow board member who I happen to believe. This is the definition of a childish game, and trolling, and I am done. There will be no further responses.

1. You are quoting a realgm poster as your source that Connelly was forced to make trades and leveraged his way out of Denver because of it… as to back up your claim that he would use his position as leverage to not have to or leave the team on principle, as if he had every done it before. Then tried to claim another source backed that up, when it did nothing of the sort. All while ignoring that Connelly extended his contract by one year before this trade happened, and can’t contractually leave. Now you are saying you shouldn’t have to defend such claims because that is your opinion and is backed up by Shrink and questioning that is childish and trolling. That is one of the must ridiculous lines of reasoning and weakest sources I have EVER seen on this board in over 15 years. You might just be completely deluded.

2. This trade saves Glen 5 million this year and 11 million next year in salary alone as a tax paying team. That is 30 million in savings for just the next 2 years. That isn’t even counting that they got Gobert to take a pay cut and saved another 18 million including tax next season. That’s roughly 20 million in salary they dropped. For someone who doesn’t like childish games you sure make a lot of “I’m rubber and your glue” arguments. When instead you could have actually read why we wouldn’t have options from 3rd teams to drop that salary unless it was for even worse contracts.

[winforlose]

1. Huh are you lost on how speculation and sourcing works? If you make a factual claim(like somebody said something) to back up speculation, you better provide it, you still haven't sourced anything remotely close to what you claimed. As a matter of fact you posted a speculative article as to why Connelly left. I haven't falsely claimed someone said something or felt some way to back up my speculation. I really hope I don't need to post the definition of speculation. I know I don't because you are okay with the unsourced speculation in that article.

2. Again this is speculation, not something I need to source, because guess what I'm not making a claim about something somebody said. I'll keep repeating this for as many times as it take for you to understand how sourcing and speculation work. So no, IMO nobody is going to take Randle for 33 million dollars of cap space over the next two years with the second being a player option. Even if teams aren't taking on all 33 million who are the teams that are going to do that with the current cap rules? The Pistons and give us Tobias Harris's even worse contract? You know better on how cap space trades work than this. Why couldn't they use Mitchel Robinson's money instead? Really? Probably because trades need to work within a certain percentage. You aren't honestly arguing that the Knicks were going to be able to come up with 20 million in filler to make that trade work right? You thought they were going to add Bridges or Hart to that deal? Come on please think of a better argument than this.

3. Your mad that I said the source for "tim connnelly didn't like being forced to make moves in Denver" was a source you provided with no such statement? and you are trying to make me sound unreasonable? L O L.

You are just filled with logical fallacies to support these arguments. "Oh he liked DDV" clearly in your mind that is reason enough to support that Connelly would trade KAT for such a weak package. How are the personnel suspect if he is trying to save money? All you just did was display such an utter lack of knowledge of how trades need to work. While denying that this trade is saving money. All while the Wolves are now locked into only trading for salaries at 33 million dollars or less, while not being able to aggregate players in trades, meaning no trades for a star players, and save drastically more money in the coming years. Oh yea, thanks Gobert for taking that pay cut, surely that will go to good use to make the team better... oh wait.

Yes I'm the troll because you got called out for making a bs claim and then sourcing it with a speculative article with no such quote. All while you started attacking me, then cried about being attacked, while continuing to attack... As the saying goes "hit dogs will holler"

1. I quoted Shrink and believe Shrink based on my understanding of Denver with TC. For me, that is good enough. If you don’t have to source speculation, then I don’t need to justify an opinion about what TC should do.

2. You tell me I don’t understand trade rules, yet you fail to grasp that the money out of NYK need not match our money out if a third team is involved and has space to absorb salary. The only thing required is that neither the Wolves nor NYK nor other first apron plus team adds money. Your argument that Randle has no trade value is literally the only way your position can sustain itself. It ignores the unusual timing of a trade (not many happen in early October just before camp,) it ignores TC’s continued interest in DDV, it ignores Glen Taylor’s statements that he is willing to pay luxury tax, and it ignores the fact that as money saving trades go, this one saved extremely little. In fact by your own logic Randle has no market and TC would know it. That means he was counting on Randle opting in next year, which further reduces the savings.

3. Common understanding of situations is based on sports reporting and sources. It wasn’t one person speculating. It is the common knowledge of the Denver Nuggets basketball community. That TC began putting opt outs into his contracts should tell you how he feels about being micro managed by Owners. But again you don’t address the opt out clauses, or the timing, or the fact that other teams are interested in TC. Your entire argument is that TC wouldn’t use his leverage from the opt out. Again, I gave an OPINION that he should publicly announce his departure from the team ASAP if he wasn’t behind the trade. This entire thing is you trying to play gotcha based on an opinion and my quoting a fellow board member who I happen to believe. This is the definition of a childish game, and trolling, and I am done. There will be no further responses.

1. You are quoting a realgm poster as your source that Connelly was forced to make trades and leveraged his way out of Denver because of it… as to back up your claim that he would use his position as leverage to not have to or leave the team on principle, as if he had every done it before. Then tried to claim another source backed that up, when it did nothing of the sort. All while ignoring that Connelly extended his contract by one year before this trade happened, and can’t contractually leave. Now you are saying you shouldn’t have to defend such claims because that is your opinion and is backed up by Shrink and questioning that is childish and trolling. That is one of the must ridiculous lines of reasoning and weakest sources I have EVER seen on this board in over 15 years. You might just be completely deluded.

2. This trade saves Glen 5 million this year and 11 million next year in salary alone as a tax paying team. That is 30 million in savings for just the next 2 years. That isn’t even counting that they got Gobert to take a pay cut and saved another 18 million including tax next season. That’s roughly 20 million in salary they dropped. For someone who doesn’t like childish games you sure make a lot of “I’m rubber and your glue” arguments. When instead you could have actually read why we wouldn’t have options from 3rd teams to drop that salary unless it was for even worse contracts.

I shouldn’t respond but, you seem like you’re trying to be reasonable, and that makes it harder to ignore.

1. I need to stop letting you put words in my mouth. I went back and read what I actually wrote. Just gonna quote it here

1A. “ 2. Sorry, but he could publicly announce that he will be leaving at the conclusion of the year as a result of disagreements between himself and ownership about the direction of the team. This gives everyone a chance to prepare for next year. His situation is an endorsement of the move, not a rejection of it.” This is a suggestion by me that TC could protect his reputation if in fact the trade was forced.

1B. 2. “I have examples of GMs making it public that ownership forced a trade. It might even be on this thread that Shrink talked about TC being forced to trade Rudy. I know about Glen forcing the sale of the Mario Chalmers pick. As for the contractual out amidst an ownership battle, amidst 2nd apron drama (the 2nd apron is new,) amidst targeting a guy that TC badly wanted last season, I have no clue. The thing speaks for itself.“ This is where we get into our dispute. My goal was not to say I have direct quotes, but rather I am aware of this happening. The GMs making it public can happen through their camp, local sports guys, ect… This is where the butting heads part of the article I cited is relevant. Owners set budgets GMs trying to work within them. When the owner puts profits before Winning GMs tend to look worse and want out.

2. The root of our disagreement is about who wanted to make the trade. Was it TC, or Glen. Your claim that Glen forced TC is supported by what evidence? Your claim that no team but NYK had an interest in Karl, and that there is was literally no market for Randle is supported by what evidence? Your claim that this is the best and most efficient way for the Wolves to save money in the long term is supported by what evidence? If it is just an opinion, that is fine. But I pointed out a number of factors that make your opinion less likely to be true, (refusing to move Karl until DDV was available, trading in October when a February trade would save the same money, TC being valued by Glen with the comment “guys like him don’t come here,” and the possibility of a negative strong armed trade pushing TC out the door next year, ect…) You still have provided nothing to account for this and no evidence that your position is correct. In fact your math was already proven wrong by mine above. I showed you that the actual savings were two million and change this season, which with the multipliers closer to 11 total. Your “5 million this year,” number is not based in anything. This is why I come back to my earlier question about the goal of this discussion? Is it just to play gotcha, or is there something you are trying to communicate. If it’s that you hate Glen, join the club. If it’s that you think TC should only get credit for good trades and avoid blame for bad, that is… an interesting approach to say the least. Shrink and I both pointed out that the out in TC’s deal exists to prevent strong arming, and TC wanted DDV. If you disagree make a solid argument as to why.

[guest81]

Tim Connelly will forever be know for his 2 horrible gigantic trades.

First paying about twice market value for Rudy Gobert.
Then giving away KAT for Julius Randle who actively makes teams worse every time he takes the court.

And the first trade caused financial problems that were a factor for the 2nd.

Just wait until Randle opts in to his player option next summer and we lose Naz and NAW as a result.

And those 4 first round picks and 2 pickswaps still outstanding come to pass.

Lol what? Is any of the players connelly gave up for Rudy even in the league anymore? Wolves got the defensive player of the year for peanuts

Walker Kessler, Jarred Vanderbilt (starts for the Lakers,) Malik Beasley (was starting for the Bucks last year,) is averaging 28 MPG this year with Detroit. Wolves got DOP, but it wasn’t for peanuts.

So only Kessler, who'd play like 15 minutes on this team? Also Vando doesn't start for the Lakers. He's barely played in like a year

[winforlose]

Lol what? Is any of the players connelly gave up for Rudy even in the league anymore? Wolves got the defensive player of the year for peanuts

Walker Kessler, Jarred Vanderbilt (starts for the Lakers,) Malik Beasley (was starting for the Bucks last year,) is averaging 28 MPG this year with Detroit. Wolves got DOP, but it wasn’t for peanuts.

So only Kessler, who'd play like 15 minutes on this team? Also Vando doesn't start for the Lakers. He's barely played in like a year

He will be when healthy, but point taken. This team wouldn’t have Rudy so Kessler would play 30. Kessler and KAT would have worked for the same reasons that Rudy and KAT worked. But Kessler was much less polished, and the progression would have taken time.

[shrink]

Walker Kessler, Jarred Vanderbilt (starts for the Lakers,) Malik Beasley (was starting for the Bucks last year,) is averaging 28 MPG this year with Detroit. Wolves got DOP, but it wasn’t for peanuts.

So only Kessler, who'd play like 15 minutes on this team? Also Vando doesn't start for the Lakers. He's barely played in like a year

He will be when healthy, but point taken. This team wouldn’t have Rudy so Kessler would play 30. Kessler and KAT would have worked for the same reasons that Rudy and KAT worked. But Kessler was much less polished, and the progression would have taken time.

I think we may tend to overvalue the players we gave up in the Gobert trade because Finch was able to cobble them together in bigger roles to over-perform and slide into the playoffs. However, on typical NBA playoff teams, none of these guys are even starters. This means there are lots of other alternative players available, which heavily restricts their value. I like Vanderbilt, but he is an extremely one-sided player that only can be a fifth starter if the rest of the team covers up his deficiencies (like a superstar offensive big like Towns). Beverley’s true value wasn’t as a player, but a motivator for the much more talented Ant. Beasley is another one-sided player, a bench shooter who you only play when he is hot. He ended up taking a vet min deal because of a lack of interest from the NBA as a whole. I tend to think of all of them as salary filler.

For the Jazz, receiving salary-filler players was just fine, because they wanted the youth. So far, we’ve seen the trade become Walker Kessler and Keyonte George, and we still owe a 2025 1st (probably low value) 2026 swap (likely won’t convey), and the real possibilities for value are the 2027 pick and the 2029 1st, top five protected. I would hope with a young Ant, Jaden and Naz, we are likely still in the playoffs in 2027 but the 2029 may be a complete unknown. It is hard to maintain multi-year success with the current CBA.

https://www.si.com/nba/jazz/news/jazz-rudy-gobert-trade-package-timberwolves-update-two-years

This trade was a high price, but I’m comfortable with it so far. Gobert is a defensive superstar, and while he’s a one-sided player, he is so impactful defensively that it’s worthwhile to build a team around him. He isn’t just great alone, he magnifies the defensive abilities of players around him, who can try to match his defensive commitment, listen to him call out defensive plays, and they can play more aggressively at the perimeter knowing if their man gets by them, Gobert is behind them.

The goal of the NBA is to win titles, and MIN hadn’t been putting a team together that had a chance to do that for twenty years. MIN’s run to the WCF only happens with Gobert, not another twenty years of hoping lottery picks will save us. Rudy was easily the team leader in On Off for the playoffs, and that was with him sitting out the DEN blowout for the birth of his child. More importantly, the WCF has changed the image of the Timberwolves as perennial losers. Players want to be here (critical to keeping Ant), but we are even seeing players take less to stay here, including Rudy. This perception of the team internally and externally after last season makes the Gobert trade worthwhile to me, despite the big price.

[winforlose]

So only Kessler, who'd play like 15 minutes on this team? Also Vando doesn't start for the Lakers. He's barely played in like a year

He will be when healthy, but point taken. This team wouldn’t have Rudy so Kessler would play 30. Kessler and KAT would have worked for the same reasons that Rudy and KAT worked. But Kessler was much less polished, and the progression would have taken time.

I think we may tend to overvalue the players we gave up in the Gobert trade because Finch was able to cobble them together in bigger roles to over-perform and slide into the playoffs. However, on typical NBA playoff teams, none of these guys are even starters. This means there are lots of other alternative players available, which heavily restricts their value. I like Vanderbilt, but he is an extremely one-sided player that only can be a fifth starter if the rest of the team covers up his deficiencies (like a superstar offensive big like Towns). Beverley’s true value wasn’t as a player, but a motivator for the much more talented Ant. Beasley is another one-sided player, a bench shooter who you only play when he is hot. He ended up taking a vet min deal because of a lack of interest from the NBA as a whole. I tend to think of all of them as salary filler.

For the Jazz, receiving salary-filler players was just fine, because they wanted the youth. So far, we’ve seen the trade become Walker Kessler and Keyonte George, and we still owe a 2025 1st (probably low value) 2026 swap (likely won’t convey), and the real possibilities for value are the 2027 pick and the 2029 1st, top five protected. I would hope with a young Ant, Jaden and Naz, we are likely still in the playoffs in 2027 but the 2029 may be a complete unknown. It is hard to maintain multi-year success with the current CBA.

https://www.si.com/nba/jazz/news/jazz-rudy-gobert-trade-package-timberwolves-update-two-years

This trade was a high price, but I’m comfortable with it so far. Gobert is a defensive superstar, and while he’s a one-sided player, he is so impactful defensively that it’s worthwhile to build a team around him. He isn’t just great alone, he magnifies the defensive abilities of players around him, who can try to match his defensive commitment, listen to him call out defensive plays, and they can play more aggressively at the perimeter knowing if their man gets by them, Gobert is behind them.

The goal of the NBA is to win titles, and MIN hadn’t been putting a team together that had a chance to do that for twenty years. MIN’s run to the WCF only happens with Gobert, not another twenty years of hoping lottery picks will save us. Rudy was easily the team leader in On Off for the playoffs, and that was with him sitting out the DEN blowout for the birth of his child. More importantly, the WCF has changed the image of the Timberwolves as perennial losers. Players want to be here (critical to keeping Ant), but we are even seeing players take less to stay here, including Rudy. This perception of the team internally and externally after last season makes the Gobert trade worthwhile to me, despite the big price.

Devils advocated time sponsored by your friendly neighbor Winforlose.

1. Would Walker Kessler playing with KAT have given you 75-80% of what Rudy gave you in 22-23? Of course KAT goes down at the same time, do the Wolves still make the playoffs with Kessler instead of Rudy? My guess is no, but it isn’t a hard NO.

2. Does Kessler suck in year 2 if he is here instead of there? I don’t think we go to the WCF without all of what Rudy gave us all year. I do think we make the playoffs and win a series without Rudy if we had year one Kessler.

3. Here is where we get spicy. What other players could we have acquired with all that player talent and all those firsts and swaps? Opportunity cost is a real thing. Mike Conley is beloved here, but he is also old and leaving a hole at PG which was costly to fill. Might we have had different Dlo options with a different big man trade? I mean the what if game can go in so many directions it will make your head spin. But the core of Karl, Ant, Jaden, and Naz was still here. Is that core significantly worse today without Rudy and with someone who spaces the floor?

[shrink]

Another one of my tenets of GMing is that 75-80% of star production is maybe only 20% as valuable.

Winning a game of basketball means scoring more points than your opponent. If you score less, no matter by how big the gap, you get a loss. This means that a team needs to put more talent on the floor than an opponent, and it needs to be concentrated in a few players because you can’t play 15 good players, 30 minutes a game. Ricky Davis is 75-80% of Dwayne Wade, and 20% as valuable.

We see this in teams that win championships. They always have a top 5 player. I can’t remember the last NBA Champ that didn’t have a first team All NBA player .. maybe you need to go all the way back to the Ben Wallace Pistons? This is why superstars are sooo valuable.

There is a chance that one of those picks we traded to UTA would eventually hit and find us a potential top 5 player. But we had Ant now who has that potential, and we’ve been an also-ran using that “maybe the next draft changes us!” strategy for twenty years. Many still disagree with that trade, but I think with the WCF run and a promising future, it has already been a net positive for changing the entire franchise for the better.

[winforlose]

Another one of my tenets of GMing is that 75-80% of star production is maybe only 20% as valuable.

Winning a game of basketball means scoring more points than your opponent. If you score less, no matter by how big the gap, you get a loss. This means that a team needs to put more talent on the floor than an opponent, and it needs to be concentrated in a few players because you can’t play 15 good players, 30 minutes a game.

We see this in teams that win championships. They always have a top 5 player. I can’t remember the last NBA Champ that didn’t have a first team All NBA player .. maybe you need to go all the way back to the Ben Wallace Pistons? This is why superstars are sooo valuable.

There is a chance that one of those picks we traded to UTA would eventually hit and find us a potential top 5 player. But we had Ant now who has that potential, and we’ve been an also-ran using that “maybe the next draft changes us!” strategy for twenty years. Many still disagree with that trade, but I think with the WCF run and a promising future, it has already been a net positive for changing the entire franchise for the better.

Kessler might be the next Gobert, and that was the talk after the draft. Then again his year 2 sucked and he isn’t looking anything like that high ceiling generational defender in year 3. I just wonder if we had Kessler instead of Rudy do we still improve with other trades but avoid being forced to dump KAT for ****.

[BlacJacMac]

Walker Kessler, Jarred Vanderbilt (starts for the Lakers,) Malik Beasley (was starting for the Bucks last year,) is averaging 28 MPG this year with Detroit. Wolves got DOP, but it wasn’t for peanuts.

So only Kessler, who'd play like 15 minutes on this team? Also Vando doesn't start for the Lakers. He's barely played in like a year

He will be when healthy, but point taken. This team wouldn’t have Rudy so Kessler would play 30. Kessler and KAT would have worked for the same reasons that Rudy and KAT worked. But Kessler was much less polished, and the progression would have taken time.

Is he going to start ahead of LeBron or AD?

I'd be surprised if he's ahead of Rui on the depth chart.

Vando is a fun player, but he's not actually good.

[Mattya]

1. I quoted Shrink and believe Shrink based on my understanding of Denver with TC. For me, that is good enough. If you don’t have to source speculation, then I don’t need to justify an opinion about what TC should do.

2. You tell me I don’t understand trade rules, yet you fail to grasp that the money out of NYK need not match our money out if a third team is involved and has space to absorb salary. The only thing required is that neither the Wolves nor NYK nor other first apron plus team adds money. Your argument that Randle has no trade value is literally the only way your position can sustain itself. It ignores the unusual timing of a trade (not many happen in early October just before camp,) it ignores TC’s continued interest in DDV, it ignores Glen Taylor’s statements that he is willing to pay luxury tax, and it ignores the fact that as money saving trades go, this one saved extremely little. In fact by your own logic Randle has no market and TC would know it. That means he was counting on Randle opting in next year, which further reduces the savings.

3. Common understanding of situations is based on sports reporting and sources. It wasn’t one person speculating. It is the common knowledge of the Denver Nuggets basketball community. That TC began putting opt outs into his contracts should tell you how he feels about being micro managed by Owners. But again you don’t address the opt out clauses, or the timing, or the fact that other teams are interested in TC. Your entire argument is that TC wouldn’t use his leverage from the opt out. Again, I gave an OPINION that he should publicly announce his departure from the team ASAP if he wasn’t behind the trade. This entire thing is you trying to play gotcha based on an opinion and my quoting a fellow board member who I happen to believe. This is the definition of a childish game, and trolling, and I am done. There will be no further responses.

1. You are quoting a realgm poster as your source that Connelly was forced to make trades and leveraged his way out of Denver because of it… as to back up your claim that he would use his position as leverage to not have to or leave the team on principle, as if he had every done it before. Then tried to claim another source backed that up, when it did nothing of the sort. All while ignoring that Connelly extended his contract by one year before this trade happened, and can’t contractually leave. Now you are saying you shouldn’t have to defend such claims because that is your opinion and is backed up by Shrink and questioning that is childish and trolling. That is one of the must ridiculous lines of reasoning and weakest sources I have EVER seen on this board in over 15 years. You might just be completely deluded.

2. This trade saves Glen 5 million this year and 11 million next year in salary alone as a tax paying team. That is 30 million in savings for just the next 2 years. That isn’t even counting that they got Gobert to take a pay cut and saved another 18 million including tax next season. That’s roughly 20 million in salary they dropped. For someone who doesn’t like childish games you sure make a lot of “I’m rubber and your glue” arguments. When instead you could have actually read why we wouldn’t have options from 3rd teams to drop that salary unless it was for even worse contracts.

I shouldn’t respond but, you seem like you’re trying to be reasonable, and that makes it harder to ignore.

1. I need to stop letting you put words in my mouth. I went back and read what I actually wrote. Just gonna quote it here

1A. “ 2. Sorry, but he could publicly announce that he will be leaving at the conclusion of the year as a result of disagreements between himself and ownership about the direction of the team. This gives everyone a chance to prepare for next year. His situation is an endorsement of the move, not a rejection of it.” This is a suggestion by me that TC could protect his reputation if in fact the trade was forced.

1B. 2. “I have examples of GMs making it public that ownership forced a trade. It might even be on this thread that Shrink talked about TC being forced to trade Rudy. I know about Glen forcing the sale of the Mario Chalmers pick. As for the contractual out amidst an ownership battle, amidst 2nd apron drama (the 2nd apron is new,) amidst targeting a guy that TC badly wanted last season, I have no clue. The thing speaks for itself.“ This is where we get into our dispute. My goal was not to say I have direct quotes, but rather I am aware of this happening. The GMs making it public can happen through their camp, local sports guys, ect… This is where the butting heads part of the article I cited is relevant. Owners set budgets GMs trying to work within them. When the owner puts profits before Winning GMs tend to look worse and want out.

2. The root of our disagreement is about who wanted to make the trade. Was it TC, or Glen. Your claim that Glen forced TC is supported by what evidence? Your claim that no team but NYK had an interest in Karl, and that there is was literally no market for Randle is supported by what evidence? Your claim that this is the best and most efficient way for the Wolves to save money in the long term is supported by what evidence? If it is just an opinion, that is fine. But I pointed out a number of factors that make your opinion less likely to be true, (refusing to move Karl until DDV was available, trading in October when a February trade would save the same money, TC being valued by Glen with the comment “guys like him don’t come here,” and the possibility of a negative strong armed trade pushing TC out the door next year, ect…) You still have provided nothing to account for this and no evidence that your position is correct. In fact your math was already proven wrong by mine above. I showed you that the actual savings were two million and change this season, which with the multipliers closer to 11 total. Your “5 million this year,” number is not based in anything. This is why I come back to my earlier question about the goal of this discussion? Is it just to play gotcha, or is there something you are trying to communicate. If it’s that you hate Glen, join the club. If it’s that you think TC should only get credit for good trades and avoid blame for bad, that is… an interesting approach to say the least. Shrink and I both pointed out that the out in TC’s deal exists to prevent strong arming, and TC wanted DDV. If you disagree make a solid argument as to why.

1.No the source of our disagreement is that 1 you are claiming factual things happened that support your speculation., those turned out to be sourced by Shrink, a realm poster, and provide no backing that he would ever force his way out vocally from the team and 2 you used that to support your speculation and then demand me provide the same level of sourcing my speculation. That’s is absolute nonsense. That you still believe this is factual backing that TC can’t be strong armed is hilarious.

2. We see it all in you second post. No you are trying to play the gotcha “game.” You are the one saying that money being saved isn’t significant when the math shows he is saving way over 20 million dollars over the next 2 years. The fact that you posted the bolded after I directly answered this question in a reply to you, is beyond asinine.

[guest81]

He will be when healthy, but point taken. This team wouldn’t have Rudy so Kessler would play 30. Kessler and KAT would have worked for the same reasons that Rudy and KAT worked. But Kessler was much less polished, and the progression would have taken time.

I think we may tend to overvalue the players we gave up in the Gobert trade because Finch was able to cobble them together in bigger roles to over-perform and slide into the playoffs. However, on typical NBA playoff teams, none of these guys are even starters. This means there are lots of other alternative players available, which heavily restricts their value. I like Vanderbilt, but he is an extremely one-sided player that only can be a fifth starter if the rest of the team covers up his deficiencies (like a superstar offensive big like Towns). Beverley’s true value wasn’t as a player, but a motivator for the much more talented Ant. Beasley is another one-sided player, a bench shooter who you only play when he is hot. He ended up taking a vet min deal because of a lack of interest from the NBA as a whole. I tend to think of all of them as salary filler.

For the Jazz, receiving salary-filler players was just fine, because they wanted the youth. So far, we’ve seen the trade become Walker Kessler and Keyonte George, and we still owe a 2025 1st (probably low value) 2026 swap (likely won’t convey), and the real possibilities for value are the 2027 pick and the 2029 1st, top five protected. I would hope with a young Ant, Jaden and Naz, we are likely still in the playoffs in 2027 but the 2029 may be a complete unknown. It is hard to maintain multi-year success with the current CBA.

https://www.si.com/nba/jazz/news/jazz-rudy-gobert-trade-package-timberwolves-update-two-years

This trade was a high price, but I’m comfortable with it so far. Gobert is a defensive superstar, and while he’s a one-sided player, he is so impactful defensively that it’s worthwhile to build a team around him. He isn’t just great alone, he magnifies the defensive abilities of players around him, who can try to match his defensive commitment, listen to him call out defensive plays, and they can play more aggressively at the perimeter knowing if their man gets by them, Gobert is behind them.

The goal of the NBA is to win titles, and MIN hadn’t been putting a team together that had a chance to do that for twenty years. MIN’s run to the WCF only happens with Gobert, not another twenty years of hoping lottery picks will save us. Rudy was easily the team leader in On Off for the playoffs, and that was with him sitting out the DEN blowout for the birth of his child. More importantly, the WCF has changed the image of the Timberwolves as perennial losers. Players want to be here (critical to keeping Ant), but we are even seeing players take less to stay here, including Rudy. This perception of the team internally and externally after last season makes the Gobert trade worthwhile to me, despite the big price.

Devils advocated time sponsored by your friendly neighbor Winforlose.

1. Would Walker Kessler playing with KAT have given you 75-80% of what Rudy gave you in 22-23? Of course KAT goes down at the same time, do the Wolves still make the playoffs with Kessler instead of Rudy? My guess is no, but it isn’t a hard NO.

2. Does Kessler suck in year 2 if he is here instead of there? I don’t think we go to the WCF without all of what Rudy gave us all year. I do think we make the playoffs and win a series without Rudy if we had year one Kessler.

3. Here is where we get spicy. What other players could we have acquired with all that player talent and all those firsts and swaps? Opportunity cost is a real thing. Mike Conley is beloved here, but he is also old and leaving a hole at PG which was costly to fill. Might we have had different Dlo options with a different big man trade? I mean the what if game can go in so many directions it will make your head spin. But the core of Karl, Ant, Jaden, and Naz was still here. Is that core significantly worse today without Rudy and with someone who spaces the floor?

1. No. Maybe they get the play in. They also probably don't make the Conley trade. So no Conley or no NAW. Terrible outcome. Plus you still have Dlo on the team.

2. Doesn't really matter. Kessler isn't close to the level of Gobert. Wolves had a historic defense with Rudy, They don't come close with Kessler.

3. Which player? Are the Wolves better if they got like Mitchell? No way. I don't know who else was out there that would of given the Wolves the same impact that Rudy has?

[TimberKat]

2. This trade saves Glen 5 million this year and 11 million next year in salary alone as a tax paying team. That is 30 million in savings for just the next 2 years. That isn’t even counting that they got Gobert to take a pay cut and saved another 18 million including tax next season. That’s roughly 20 million in salary they dropped. For someone who doesn’t like childish games you sure make a lot of “I’m rubber and your glue” arguments. When instead you could have actually read why we wouldn’t have options from 3rd teams to drop that salary unless it was for even worse contracts.

If those numbers are correct, that is the smoking gun on why Taylor or ARod wanted the trade. At the end of the day, it is interesting to speculate. Rather it's Towns wants out (because he never get a pass from Ant), or Ownership, or TC. TC shares the blame anyway. He could had try to stall and hold off until the end of this year before any Towns move. As of now DDV is a duplicate of NAW (really haven't added anything to the team) and Randle is a duplicate of Ant (from a ball stopper point of view). I supposed someone could had panic and thinks Towns will fall off the map but any real GM can see a healthy Towns is 5x better than Randle.

[TimberKat]

3. Here is where we get spicy. What other players could we have acquired with all that player talent and all those firsts and swaps? Opportunity cost is a real thing. Mike Conley is beloved here, but he is also old and leaving a hole at PG which was costly to fill. Might we have had different Dlo options with a different big man trade? I mean the what if game can go in so many directions it will make your head spin. But the core of Karl, Ant, Jaden, and Naz was still here. Is that core significantly worse today without Rudy and with someone who spaces the floor?

If you bought Nvidia stock early this year, you would had made a lot of money but you can always had gotten something even better looking back. Sure we may had a chance to get KD, Davis, or TyTy Washington. While the trade was controversial, I think it actually worked out really well. This year should had been our year with some minor upgrades. Sure, it would be interesting what if we double down on offense and traded Naz or JMcD for Ingram or PG or LaVine instead of Gobert.

[shrink]

2. This trade saves Glen 5 million this year and 11 million next year in salary alone as a tax paying team. That is 30 million in savings for just the next 2 years. That isn’t even counting that they got Gobert to take a pay cut and saved another 18 million including tax next season. That’s roughly 20 million in salary they dropped. For someone who doesn’t like childish games you sure make a lot of “I’m rubber and your glue” arguments. When instead you could have actually read why we wouldn’t have options from 3rd teams to drop that salary unless it was for even worse contracts.

If those numbers are correct, that is the smoking gun on why Taylor or ARod wanted the trade.

Don’t be spoiled hypocrites. If you have been fairly watching Taylor’s bank account, then show me your posts last year where you PRAISED Taylor for agreeing to deals that ADDED so much payroll to be the #2 highest in the NBA!

In fact, the only reason these decreases in payroll are this big is because Taylor paid so much in payroll in the first place, putting us so far in the luxury tax, and it’s higher multipliers. And that’s not even talking about the functionality gains for the team if we get under an apron or two.

Childish? I’m hearing Veruca Salt.