Eye of the Tiger: The Tidjane Salaun Thread

[EmpireFalls]

I just wish he could protect the rim, that would almost completely change my thoughts on him. He just doesn’t block shots and often resort to attempting to draw a charge or something. At least if he had even an ounce of shot blocking flashes, then I could see the vision of him as a small ball 5 who provides spacing.

But since he has to be paired with a big, it drastically limits his upside and the team’s potential when he’s on court.

People keep talking about how big he is and how they’re so impressed with his size… well he’s like the textbook example of wasted size, of not taking advantage of your frame.

As it stands his size doesn’t matter at all for his playstyle. He plays like a wing, not a big. Actually most wings can do at least some secondary rim protection, he doesn’t. What’s the point of a 6’10” guy with a huge wingspan if he just hangs out on the perimeter all day? He clearly is below average at every other wing skill except shooting. If he’s going to play on the perimeter and can’t dribble he’s a minus out there.

And that all goes back to his inability to screen, protect the rim, and occupy space in the post. He’s just a giant spot up shooter at this point.

[JDR720]

His upside is meant to be a Michael Porter Jr. type player.

MPJ is averaging 19/7/3 on 51/38/70 (normally 80) shooting splits. And he only averages .6 blocks per game for his career, .4 this year.

If TJ can become bulkier, so he can play a physical defensive role with his same effort level, and shoot consistently I think MPJ is his realistic upside. Probably with a more defensive lean, and less microwave scoring ability.

He just needs to stay in the gym shooting all year, and get stronger too. He's not going to block shots because he can't jump.

[Robot Rock]

He's already done more than I expected this season, and more than probably most people on here expected. He's also shown enough promise to warrant some patience in his development. I like the enthusiasm.

[KembaWalker]

He's already done more than I expected this season, and more than probably most people on here expected. He's also shown enough promise to warrant some patience in his development. I like the enthusiasm.

done more what? like he's done more on volume so far than anyone expected, sure, cause our roster is ridiculously lopsided combined with the standard Hornet injury luck. he's not out here starting games and racking up big minutes based on merit or anything.

[Chapelchilla]

He's already done more than I expected this season, and more than probably most people on here expected. He's also shown enough promise to warrant some patience in his development. I like the enthusiasm.

done more what? like he's done more on volume so far than anyone expected, sure, cause our roster is ridiculously lopsided combined with the standard Hornet injury luck. he's not out here starting games and racking up big minutes based on merit or anything.

He also just turned 19 and moved to the States. Dude should have a couple years to get it together before we can evaluate his career path, lol.

[KembaWalker]

He's already done more than I expected this season, and more than probably most people on here expected. He's also shown enough promise to warrant some patience in his development. I like the enthusiasm.

done more what? like he's done more on volume so far than anyone expected, sure, cause our roster is ridiculously lopsided combined with the standard Hornet injury luck. he's not out here starting games and racking up big minutes based on merit or anything.

He also just turned 19 and moved to the States. Dude should have a couple years to get it together before we can evaluate his career path, lol.

i agree, i'm just saying its not really like he's demonstrating that he's ahead of schedule or anything. anyone who was told he was going to be playing 20+ minutes and starting games would have said he's probably going to suck, and he's been sucking. at best, he's meeting his very low expectations, i guess. his bar was so low from the start that the phrase "meeting expectations" has essentially no meaning lol. he's a warm body on the floor thats performing as such

[Snidely FC]

People keep saying he can't jump, he can't rebound, he can't defend, he can't do this he can't do that. But he can. Here are some clips that show that he Can...
TeJean Can't Jump
https://youtube.com/clip/Ugkx0WP0Y7s4y9nJsb_SGgwXjrEnb8ASe8x5?si=fyuzb71tzo9O9qab
TeJean Can't Pass
https://youtube.com/clip/UgkxLw4dCOuIhIbvuE8HypdsW8ZaSTwFXP1K?si=zUounVUVvudueHt_
TeJean Can't Defend
https://youtube.com/clip/UgkxTSSlAja2HuAkEjiqgLE66pw0fYgGX44O?si=vMpa-NK6r7n1jLnY
TeJean Can't Rebound
https://youtube.com/clip/UgkxiGzB8U68_3ftSeGN-vQJcW6xQ0QiCHMs?si=7yY2XDqKjL-EznLX
TeJean Can't Dribble
https://youtube.com/clip/Ugkxi-qaZWCjCfsDI8ZrkGLPUX3Ctr9a9iBY?si=WLuJDigrqqWKxbE7
TeJean Can't Attack A Close Out
https://youtube.com/clip/UgkxYxg7YNRswIRR8D1QKzjAJ4GbDrvyjN-7?si=ZlSq5ksCgc6m6jH8
TeJean Can't Offensive Rebound
https://youtube.com/clip/Ugkx7sT8wPZ8kg5qQCrQpKL6uydRvjrQ1xRG?si=2yA2jOg7TPLmYoV_
"The Kid" isn't the youngest player on an NBA roster
https://youtube.com/clip/UgkxXuN9JERdqhdzcqXQAKEPoVpQ-jx8Ie-E?si=8sxSGMrFa6w60rJi

[Robot Rock]

He's already done more than I expected this season, and more than probably most people on here expected. He's also shown enough promise to warrant some patience in his development. I like the enthusiasm.

done more what? like he's done more on volume so far than anyone expected, sure, cause our roster is ridiculously lopsided combined with the standard Hornet injury luck. he's not out here starting games and racking up big minutes based on merit or anything.

I figured his season high for points would be around 2, and for rebounds around 2 as well. Basically Kai Jones numbers. Hardly any flashes of competence, let alone quality minutes (points, and rebounds) against the Knicks and Heat and a double-double against Philly. The bar is low and he's at least met it, despite other rookies before him failing to even reach that.

[KembaWalker]

He's already done more than I expected this season, and more than probably most people on here expected. He's also shown enough promise to warrant some patience in his development. I like the enthusiasm.

done more what? like he's done more on volume so far than anyone expected, sure, cause our roster is ridiculously lopsided combined with the standard Hornet injury luck. he's not out here starting games and racking up big minutes based on merit or anything.

I figured his season high for points would be around 2, and for rebounds around 2 as well. Basically Kai Jones numbers. Hardly any flashes of competence, let alone quality minutes (points, and rebounds) against the Knicks and Heat and a double-double against Philly. The bar is low and he's at least met it, despite other rookies before him failing to even reach that.

i don't think you would have thought his season high was going to be 2 points if you were told he was going to be playing a huge amount of undeserved minutes. he would be racking up DNPs behind Grant and Miles if they were healthy and honestly if this front office was trying to win at all they would have both added at least one more guy to that spot who would also be above TJ or bare minimum added someone else at the spot when Grant blew out his knee. guys are gonna get box score counting stats sometimes, if they get minutes.

[Robot Rock]

done more what? like he's done more on volume so far than anyone expected, sure, cause our roster is ridiculously lopsided combined with the standard Hornet injury luck. he's not out here starting games and racking up big minutes based on merit or anything.

I figured his season high for points would be around 2, and for rebounds around 2 as well. Basically Kai Jones numbers. Hardly any flashes of competence, let alone quality minutes (points, and rebounds) against the Knicks and Heat and a double-double against Philly. The bar is low and he's at least met it, despite other rookies before him failing to even reach that.

i don't think you would have thought his season high was going to be 2 points if you were told he was going to be playing a huge amount of undeserved minutes.

If the team is high enough on him to pick him sixth in the draft and spend a season's worth of tanking for his future, I'm gonna think those minutes are deserved -- even if they're not productive, because he needs floor time and while you can get it in the G-League, that league also develops bad habits.

[KembaWalker]

I figured his season high for points would be around 2, and for rebounds around 2 as well. Basically Kai Jones numbers. Hardly any flashes of competence, let alone quality minutes (points, and rebounds) against the Knicks and Heat and a double-double against Philly. The bar is low and he's at least met it, despite other rookies before him failing to even reach that.

i don't think you would have thought his season high was going to be 2 points if you were told he was going to be playing a huge amount of undeserved minutes.

If the team is high enough on him to pick him sixth in the draft and spend a season's worth of tanking for his future, I'm gonna think those minutes are deserved -- even if they're not productive, because he needs floor time and while you can get it in the G-League, that league also develops bad habits.

so you think 20mpg is a reasonable expectation for him given his draft slot and developmental needs but you also thought he was going to score 2 points as a season high? i mean damn, even his biggest haters don't think he's like a make-a-wish kid fan thats never played basketball before lol. if you set expectations that are basically impossible to not meet then exceeding them doesnt seem worth acknowledgement to me

again, I like Tidjane especially his energy and attitude but i'm not gonna pretend like he's blowing away expectations or anything. he was a player we had good reason to believe would be pretty bad, playing pretty bad. he's being asked to do a lot more than he is capable of doing but this year doesn't define his career or anything.

[Robot Rock]

i don't think you would have thought his season high was going to be 2 points if you were told he was going to be playing a huge amount of undeserved minutes.

If the team is high enough on him to pick him sixth in the draft and spend a season's worth of tanking for his future, I'm gonna think those minutes are deserved -- even if they're not productive, because he needs floor time and while you can get it in the G-League, that league also develops bad habits.

so you think 20mpg is a reasonable expectation for him given his draft slot and developmental needs but you also thought he was going to score 2 points as a season high? i mean damn, even his biggest haters don't think he's like a make-a-wish kid fan thats never played basketball before lol. if you set expectations that are basically impossible to not meet then exceeding them doesnt seem worth acknowledgement to me

again, I like Tidjane especially his energy and attitude but i'm not gonna pretend like he's blowing away expectations or anything. he was a player we had good reason to believe would be pretty bad, playing pretty bad. he's being asked to do a lot more than he is capable of doing but this year doesn't define his career or anything.

I said I thought he wouldn’t play much so his season highs would be low. But you said, “he was playing undeserved minutes,” so I explained how they weren’t undeserved. No one said he was blowing away expectations. At least address what I say; not what you think I imply.

[KembaWalker]

If the team is high enough on him to pick him sixth in the draft and spend a season's worth of tanking for his future, I'm gonna think those minutes are deserved -- even if they're not productive, because he needs floor time and while you can get it in the G-League, that league also develops bad habits.

so you think 20mpg is a reasonable expectation for him given his draft slot and developmental needs but you also thought he was going to score 2 points as a season high? i mean damn, even his biggest haters don't think he's like a make-a-wish kid fan thats never played basketball before lol. if you set expectations that are basically impossible to not meet then exceeding them doesnt seem worth acknowledgement to me

again, I like Tidjane especially his energy and attitude but i'm not gonna pretend like he's blowing away expectations or anything. he was a player we had good reason to believe would be pretty bad, playing pretty bad. he's being asked to do a lot more than he is capable of doing but this year doesn't define his career or anything.

I said I thought he wouldn’t play much so his season highs would be low. But you said, “he was playing undeserved minutes,” so I explained how they weren’t undeserved. No one said he was blowing away expectations. At least address what I say; not what you think I imply.

I have to read implications or at least attempt to cause you aren’t making any sense. You said YOU didn’t expect him to play any minutes, thus a 2 point season high, but then you say he deserves minutes because he’s a high draft pick that we lost a lot of games for??

[Walt Cronkite]

You hyperbolic fanatics are exhausting to read.

[MasterIchiro]

JT Thor vs. Tidjane Salaun

JT Thor
Team - Hornets
Age 19
Position - PF
Role - Stretch Forward
Height = 6' 10"
FG% = .436 (.426 career)
3PT% = .259 (.329 career)
TS% =.525 (.525 career)

Tidjane Salaün
Team - Hornets
Age 19
Position - PF
Role - Stretch Forward
Height - 6' 9"
FG% =.327
3PT% = .288
TS% = .451

As stretch forwards with similar length and similar athleticism at age 19, both players seem to be performing poorly in their role on offense.

When we look at their per 36 numbers for their careers there is small variance in three basic statistical categories: points, assists, rebounds.

Points: Thor 9.8 (career) vs. Salaün 9.3

I think this similarity is attributable to similar role on offense and to lack of diversity in skills on offense. Neither player excels putting the ball on the floor, beating defense off the dribble, getting to the rim, drawing fouls. It's 3 or bust.

FTAR: Thor .192 (career) vs. Salaün. 200

Assists: Thor 1.5 (career) vs. Salaün 1.8

I think this similarity is attributable to similar role on offense and to lack of diversity in skills on offense. Neither player advances a possession through passes and this translates in low assists. The Hornets likely did not project Salaün to become an initiator on offense, rather he is more of a finisher who's only scoring on one level (3PT) and not drawing fouls due to limitations dribbling.

As of now, Salaün looks like strictly a finisher of offensive possessions who's highly inefficient and not adding anything on offense that would elevate the play of teammates in terms of shot creation for himself and others, in terms of dribbling into space, in terms of shifting a defense, in terms of pressuring a defense on all 3 levels of scoring.

What about adding something on defense?

Per 36 blocks for Thor = 1.1 (career) vs. 0.3 for Salaün.

https://stathead.com/tiny/TQn7I

I am not saying Salaun is going to flatline like JT Thor. I just notice overlapping limitations I think appear in statistical similarities in terms of: inefficient shooting overall, inefficient threes, low assists off passes, lack of scoring at the rim, inability to draw fouls.

I would feel lucky if Tidjane can just become an impact player within his stretch forward role. Never mind hoping he adds something on either end.

[yosemiteben]

Thor played in 33 total games his rookie year, and only averaged 7.9 MPG in games where he played. His per 36 stats are meaningless.

[amcoolio]

I think people were hoping for some sort of a difference maker, when the draft was just really bad and we only had a 1 in 30 shot of getting a great player at our pick anyway. I like Tidjane's hustle, but he is absolutely never going to be an all-star, and probably not any better than an Isaac Okoro on the low end or Jeff Green on the high end role player. Last season was just a very painful season to endure to only get Tidjane as your prize for enduring it

All-star? Do you realize how rare it is to draft one outside the top 3 picks?

Here are the last 20 #6 picks in the draft, and remember this past draft was considered one of the worst in last 25 years.

Tidajne Salaun
Anthony Black
Benedict Mathurin
Josh Giddey
Onyeka Okongwu
Jarret Culver
Mo Bamba
Jonathan Issac
Buddy Hield
Willie Cauley Stein
Marcus Smart
Nerlens Noel
Damian Lillard
Jan Vesely
Ekpe Udoh
Johnny Flynn
Danilo Galinari
Yi
Brandon Roy
Josh Childress

Please look at this list then realize how foolish you look hating on a 19 yr old kid because 20 games into his career you don't think he will ever be an allstar.

Uhhhhh none of what I said is false homie lol. Hating? I'm not hating, he just isn't going to be a great NBA player, I think anyone can see that. He's pretty much going to be on the level of the average player on that list you just mentioned. Which again, absolutely stings because he was the only prize after enduring that horrific season last year

[MasterIchiro]

Thor played in 33 total games his rookie year, and only averaged 7.9 MPG in games where he played. His per 36 stats are meaningless.

This is why I added career numbers, to expand the sample size available.

The skills look sufficiently similar at baseline so that pulling data from Thor as a 20 year old in his sophomore season, doesn't really absolve Tidjane from those similarities.

They have similar height.

Same position.

Same role assignment.

Same inefficient shooting overall.

Same inefficient 3's.

Same low assists.

Same low FTAR.

One year difference doesn't dismiss those similarities for their early careers.

[Liver_Pooty]

Read on Twitter

?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet

[Walt Cronkite]

He’s clearly super engaged when you watch him. Interacts with Lee a lot, pays attention in the huddle, the post above, it’s very different form an attentive/ body language perspective than what I’ve observed from Bouknight and Kai in particular, LaMelo at times, Miles at times… it’s one of the things that gives me hope and makes him easy to cheer and be happy for.

From the moment the pick was made the spin has been he’s raw, but he’s taken huge leaps (Ex, where he was at the start of last season to where he was for his club’s playoff run) because he’s a really hard worker who wants to get better. Maybe he won’t get better, many (most?) picks don’t achieve their ceiling, but some of the takes are so asinine at this point that they hover the line of trolling.

If you root against Salaun succeeding, I question your motivation at this point. Can’t stomach more losing? fine, take a walk this season. Insulted he was selected instead of the player of your choice/from your favorite collegiate program? Go watch that team and find your next crush, but consider along the way that you might not really care about the Charlotte pro basketball franchise outside of the fact one of your former darlings had a spell in the Queen City.

The few of you that I think just troll the board for kicks, I hope one day you grow up and spend your time attempting to make a place better instead of worse.