Will Kevin Durant ever win a Championship as the best player on his team?

[ArksNetsSince99]

No, KD was never the best player in GS. OP has it right. The team was fine without KD and struggled without Curry.

Let’s be honest , KD was just a bus rider in GSW

Take any other MVP of those other championship teams and they all loose , take KD out of 2017/2018 GSW and they still likely win the championship

[floppymoose]

No, KD was never the best player in GS. OP has it right. The team was fine without KD and struggled without Curry.

Sure, Flop.

Do you actually believe your Warriors win those titles without KD? 

Why did you lose to Cleveland in 2016 without KD?

It appears that you struggled without KD, but you said "the team" was fine without KD and struggled without Steph. So, back to 2016, why did you lose without KD?

Do you realize that none of the questions you asked above are relevant to what I said? KD was never the best player in GS.

[phanman]

No, KD was never the best player in GS. OP has it right. The team was fine without KD and struggled without Curry.

Sure, Flop.

Do you actually believe your Warriors win those titles without KD? 

Why did you lose to Cleveland in 2016 without KD?

It appears that you struggled without KD, but you said "the team" was fine without KD and struggled without Steph. So, back to 2016, why did you lose without KD?




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There were plenty of reasons why they lost in 2016 but you do realize that G7 could have went either way right? It was a 4pt game that was decided by crucial plays from each member of Cleveland's big 3. The Stop, The Block, and The Shot. One crucial thing everybody always forgets is that the Dubs also lost their rim protector in Bogut late in Game 5 and had to resort to playing Festus the rest of the series.

Let's not act like that Cavs were that much better than the Dubs man. They were evenly matched that season but the key difference is Bron and Kyrie went nuclear as Steph and Klay struggled in the final game. Remember it was Draymond who nearly willed them to a W in G7 with his near triple double to counter Brons. KD wasn't the only reason why they won, he was just the tipping point that elevated that version of the Warriors into a tier of their own.

[tsherkin]

No, KD was never the best player in GS. OP has it right. The team was fine without KD and struggled without Curry.

Sure, Flop.

Do you actually believe your Warriors win those titles without KD? 

Why did you lose to Cleveland in 2016 without KD?

It appears that you struggled without KD, but you said "the team" was fine without KD and struggled without Steph. So, back to 2016, why did you lose without KD?

Do you realize that none of the questions you asked above are relevant to what I said? KD was never the best player in GS.

Gotta say, I'm with floppy on this one. KD wasn't the best player on the Warriors during either of those titles. He had sexy scoring numbers, but that team was a monster without him and was driven very clearly by Curry. KD did well, no doubt, but he went to a team which had a very clear structure and approach which didn't much change with him aboard.

Why did they lose to Cleveland?

Well, for one, Cleveland was very good. They WERE the 3rd-best O in the league and a top-10 D in the RS, and were then the best D and the 7th-best D in the playoffs. Tight 7-game series. Lost the game where Draymond was suspended. Harrison Barnes was dogcrap.

And then the last game was decided by 4 points. Bench came up dry, but mostly Steph couldn't get it done in the 4th. Kyrie hit a big 3 in the last minute, Steph bricked a pair of 3s and they bungled the last 30 seconds pretty badly with fouls in general. Gave up an ORB to Kyrie, Barnes and Draymond both fouled. Then Lebron killed it splitting a pair of FTs to make it a 4-point game. Was an ugly game all around, it was just a little less ugly for Cleveland over the final 60.

It happens. It's not like Cleveland was dreadful competition. "Why did you lose to Cleveland in 2016 without KD" isn't a question which actually addresses anything. That series could have gone either way VERY easily. As it had the year before.

[michaelm]

the

I'll give you that KD was an important part part of the warrior's defense, but the rest of this doesn't pass the eye test. KD was getting these great TS%'s and other stats because he'd never seen such poor defense on him. And that was directly the result of Curry's impact and that opposing coaches decided it was better to give easy shots to KD over even difficult shots to Curry. And you'll see that all play out when you see KD on with Curry off. If Curry were the traditional point guard who created through on ball passing vs Curry's unique off ball movement, everyone would be raving about how great his play making was. But because Curry creates in a unique way, fans want to just ignore it.

And I don't want to sound like we're dismissing KD. He's a former MVP, he's one of the greats and he's a better iso scorer than Curry...but Curry is also an elite iso scorer too. The two played to their strengths and to what the defense gave them. But the offense was built around Curry and defenses were very clearly built to stop Curry.

In short, I get why people see the good shooting and scoring and give it to KD to some degree. But the context here is really hard to get past. Both teams knew who the best player was.

I think you are making fair arguments and I hope I don't come off as being dismissive of Curry, one of my favorite players of all time.

But I think you ought to consider that Curry's superior on/off numbers probably have something to do with him having a system built around him and all of his teammates being complementary to Curry's playing style. Draymond Green, for example, would be somewhat of an offensive liability on most teams, but when alongside Curry in Golden State's motion offense, his greatest offensive skill, setting screens, is maximized to its highest potential.

The longer Durant was with the team, the more his teammates adapted to his skillset and the better Durant's on/off numbers became relative to Curry. In their first season together, Curry's on/off was +17.2 and Durant's was +8.7. By their third season, it was Curry +16.2 and Durant +16.1.

I think the point however is that KD can't generate a system where he's that guy in terms of on/off. He hasn't done it anywhere. The greatness of a player imo is what's the MOST we can get to maximize a player's value add. And Curry is perhaps the GOAT in that sense.

And again what I'd focus on is Curry on KD off vs KD on Curry off. They missed enough games each where we got some great samples.

And not to repeat but this is why Curry won back to back MVP's before KD joined. He'd already pretty clearly established himself as the better player. So why wouldn't Kerr continue to run a system around the better player? Or the guy who's proven at the time to be the greatest offensive ceiling raiser we'd ever seen?

I am a GSW fan and very much a fan of both players.

Why is it necessary for the 2 best players on possibly the best team of all time who were pretty much co-equal imo to be separated ?. It was their combination, which was better than the sum of their parts which made that 2017 team invincible. Of course if you have a team built around Curry you are not going to totally change the game plan, but Curry himself chose to facilitate KD somewhat to the detriment of his own numbers and certainly to the detriment of his FMVP chances because he is a team player and that is the way he plays and unsurprisingly this made the team better,

Just because LeBron is a great playmaker as a SF doesn’t mean all other SFs have to be so. There is very little chance of KD winning a title as the “main man” given he is now 36 I would have thought. Hypotheticals are easy to say nothing of intrinsically pointless but the way Westbrook played, the OKC coaching and game plan which was basically dual iso, and even the OKC roster construction did not maximally employ KD’s talents. Imo particularly in his prime before the Achilles’ thing he could have won a title as the best player next to someone far lesser than Curry. He does need a playmaker but so have most SFs in history, and I suspect he could have won with a merely competent playmaker and an appropriate scheme. I have always wondered what would have happened if OkC hadn’t cheaped out on keeping Harden, with less titles for both LeBron and GSW a strong possibility imo.

[dhsilv2]

I think you are making fair arguments and I hope I don't come off as being dismissive of Curry, one of my favorite players of all time.

But I think you ought to consider that Curry's superior on/off numbers probably have something to do with him having a system built around him and all of his teammates being complementary to Curry's playing style. Draymond Green, for example, would be somewhat of an offensive liability on most teams, but when alongside Curry in Golden State's motion offense, his greatest offensive skill, setting screens, is maximized to its highest potential.

The longer Durant was with the team, the more his teammates adapted to his skillset and the better Durant's on/off numbers became relative to Curry. In their first season together, Curry's on/off was +17.2 and Durant's was +8.7. By their third season, it was Curry +16.2 and Durant +16.1.

I think the point however is that KD can't generate a system where he's that guy in terms of on/off. He hasn't done it anywhere. The greatness of a player imo is what's the MOST we can get to maximize a player's value add. And Curry is perhaps the GOAT in that sense.

And again what I'd focus on is Curry on KD off vs KD on Curry off. They missed enough games each where we got some great samples.

And not to repeat but this is why Curry won back to back MVP's before KD joined. He'd already pretty clearly established himself as the better player. So why wouldn't Kerr continue to run a system around the better player? Or the guy who's proven at the time to be the greatest offensive ceiling raiser we'd ever seen?

I am a GSW fan and very much a fan of both players.

Why is it necessary for the 2 best players on possibly the best team of all time who were pretty much co-equal imo to be separated ?. It was their combination, which was better than the sum of their parts which made that 2017 team invincible. Of course if you have a team built around Curry you are not going to totally change the game plan, but Curry himself chose to facilitate KD somewhat to the detriment of his own numbers and certainly to the detriment of his FMVP chances because he is a team player and that is the way he plays and unsurprisingly this made the team better,

Just because LeBron is a great playmaker as a SF doesn’t mean all other SFs have to be so. There is very little chance of KD winning a title as the “main man” given he is now 36 I would have thought. Hypotheticals are easy to say nothing of intrinsically pointless but the way Westbrook played, the OKC coaching and game plan which was basically dual iso , and even the OKC roster construction did not maximally employ KD’s talents. Imo particularly in his prime before the Achilles’ thing he could have won a title as the best player next to someone far lesser than Curry. He does need a playmaker but so have most SFs in history, and I suspect he could have won with a merely competent playmaker and an appropriate scheme. I have always wondered what would have happened if OkC hadn’t cheaped out on keeping Harden, with less titles for both LeBron and GSW a strong possibility imo.

KD was certainly among the best players in the league. But I don't think they were co-equal what so ever. Curry had established himself as the best player or perhaps co-equal with Lebron in 2015 and 2016. KD wasn't in that discussion. And nothing I saw on the warriors did anything but convince me the gap between him and Curry was any closer than it looked before. If anything seeing that Curry was still very clearly the better just increased that gap.

I'll add I wasn't against the KD decision to join the warriors and while KD isn't one of my favorite players, I hardly dislike him. I appreciate his game, but we'd seen KD forced to carry teams when the talent wasn't like the warriors and his iso play absolutely can be stopped if a team can focus on him. Teams simply couldn't do that with Curry on the floor.

As for the finals MVP's and sacrificing numbers. Curry did nothing of the sort because he wasn't playing for numbers. He was playing for titles. His numbers perhaps look muted due to making the right decisions and playing the best possible basketball, but that's a different thing. Or I suppose, this is a better way to say it.

[bledredwine]

What is this? He was Finals MVP twice and outplayed Lebron. Enough of this absolute denial and propoganda threads from Lebron fans.

It’s hilarious how many of these types of threads are created with an obvious intention.

And then the excuses start coming in “ohhh well he was on Golden State so it was easy to score”. Oh really? Who was supposed to guard him?

exactly.


Durant was blowing by him and lighting him UP

Watch on YouTube

[Jimmy Recard]

It’s crazy to me that some people still argue that KD > Steph even after we’ve witnessed the last 10 years. You take Steph off the warriors during the KD years and they’re not the same team at all. You take KD off those teams and they still win championships without him. Even Ty Lue said more or less that containing Steph was their main priority in those matchups, not KD.

[RipHamilton]

Finals MVP isn't a good metric on whoever was the bus driver for a Championship team.

No, it's better to look at the annual inflation rate.

[SaveTheHens]

No, KD was never the best player in GS. OP has it right. The team was fine without KD and struggled without Curry.

Sure, Flop.

Do you actually believe your Warriors win those titles without KD? 

Why did you lose to Cleveland in 2016 without KD?

It appears that you struggled without KD, but you said "the team" was fine without KD and struggled without Steph. So, back to 2016, why did you lose without KD?




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2016 was a much different scenario, Steph was leading his team to surpass MJ's unsurpassable record, something Lebron's never come close to doing.

To do so, the Warriors didn't get to rest near the end of the season. They never got to taper down, until the very last game of the regular season they were in the hunt for 73. Obviously had they done it all over again they'd let it go, get their 66-70 wins, rest their guys for the playoffs and not run out of juice. The only reason Lebron got to participate in his own historic comeback was because the Warriors were dead beat tired. They already had a championship run the year before, ran the most dominant season of NBA history, started getting tired in the playoffs but ran back from a 1-3 deficit. Game 5 of the Finals rolls around and you play twice as hard without Draymond, by game 6 Drays back but your team had to compensate while he was gone in prob the most tiring season in nba history considering you're going for something thats never been done before. Meanwhile Cavs got to rest at the end of the season, got to go through an easy eastern conference with all the other contendors out in the West.

So Lebron's never been near as dominant as Steph or MJ in the regular season, has he done differently in the postseason? Even spending most his career in an easier East he's still never come close to what Kobe/Shaq or KD/Steph did with sweeping the playoffs outside of 1 loss for each team. MJ got 2 losses in his 91 run. Duncan had 2 losses in 99. The least losses Lebron's ever had in championship run is 5 losses. Not even close to the level of domination that other superstars got going with their team, and thats with 3 different superteams. His first year with the Heatles he had a chance to get the job done with 3 total losses when he was up 2-0 on Dallas. Didn't finish the job. So much talk & ego but he doesn't have what it takes to get the job done like the other superstars have. He's good, but he's not great. He's so freakingly athletic & generally talented that it carries him, but he hasn't developed the champions mindset to show up in the biggest moments. His mind slips too much.

[Saberestar]

He did it two times already.

[bledredwine]

It’s crazy to me that some people still argue that KD > Steph even after we’ve witnessed the last 10 years. You take Steph off the warriors during the KD years and they’re not the same team at all. You take KD off those teams and they still win championships without him. Even Ty Lue said more or less that containing Steph was their main priority in those matchups, not KD.

See, I find it crazy to try and paint Steph as better than Durant when Durant outplayed Lebron.

Did Steph outplay Lebron in either of those finals? KD was the best on the court.
Hence, two Finals MVPs to Durant.

Durant had 35.2, 8.2 and 5 assists on absurd efficiency as a non-point player.

Steph had 26.8, 8 and 9 on significantly worse efficiency.

Gamescore
Durant - 30.3
Steph - 24.3

Durant came up clutch bucket after bucket.
This is a poor thread and created with obvious intention.

[NBA_is_cringe]

kd is truly horrible, by far the worst player ever. no other player even comes close. who is even remotely like him? nobody. nobody has ever done what he did and maybe no one ever will

[michaelm]

It’s crazy to me that some people still argue that KD > Steph even after we’ve witnessed the last 10 years. You take Steph off the warriors during the KD years and they’re not the same team at all. You take KD off those teams and they still win championships without him. Even Ty Lue said more or less that containing Steph was their main priority in those matchups, not KD.

See, I find it crazy to try and paint Steph as better than Durant when Durant outplayed Lebron.

Did Steph outplay Lebron in either of those finals? KD was the best on the court.
Hence, two Finals MVPs to Durant.

Durant had 35.2, 8.2 and 5 assists on absurd efficiency as a non-point player.

Steph had 26.8, 8 and 9 on significantly worse efficiency.

Gamescore
Durant - 30.3
Steph - 24.3

Durant came up clutch bucket after bucket.
This is a poor thread and created with obvious intention.

Absolutely. Steph is my favourite ever player but while KD imo wouldn’t have had the effect he had without Steph the 2017 GSW team also wouldn’t again imo have been as good with any other player in the then current NBA, and there was possibly no better fit with Curry in NBA history. Even LeBron who is obviously also a great scorer was a less versatile scorer than KD was and I can’t see that LeBron ball and Curry/Kerr ball would have melded well.

I see considerable doublethink in regard to those who decry KD since if he made the 2017 GSW team invincible and unfair this implies he was rather good.

Like many things a lot of it imo was salty tears from LeBron fans who saw his path to multiple rings blocked. Given LeBron got into the business of building superteams well before KD did and a top 5 player signed to LeBron’s player agency subsequently broke a contract to join him at the Lakers i don’t see how the narrative about KD joining GSW can continue from LeBron partisans at least.

And yes the ill intent of the thread is obvious given he is now 36 and ruptured his Achilles’ tendon over 5 years ago and was an inch away from eliminating the subsequent title winners even after that injury.

[Lalouie]

isn't this a little late to be asking this question.

[WarriorGM]

Everybody knows I'm a big Curry fan but it's threads like this that make me take a backseat and am sympathetic when KD's supporters want to claim all the glory for his years on GSW. KD was great on the team. KD and Curry played like the all-time duo they are. It was a partnership. That is the reality. Any argument that one or the other was less than is wrong. KD won a championship as the best player on a championship team. Was it on the 2017 or 2018 title team? Either is fine. Curry is the same. Are there other championships where two other superstars could arguably have been the best to the same degree in such a balanced way?

[michaelm]

Everybody knows I'm a big Curry fan but it's threads like this that make me take a backseat and am sympathetic when KD's supporters want to claim all the glory for his years on GSW. KD was great on the team. KD and Curry played like the all-time duo they are. It was a partnership. That is the reality. Any argument that one or the other was less than is wrong. KD won a championship as the best player on a championship team. Was it on the 2017 or 2018 title team? Either is fine. Curry is the same. Are there other championships where two other superstars could arguably have been the best to the same degree in such a balanced way?

You are the very reason I never claim to be the biggest Curry fan on the forum and we are on the same page on this.

They were an all time great duo, in the conversation to be the great all time duo imo, and there is no need imo to detract from either to boost the other.

[MrPainfulTruth]

This is a kind of passive-aggressive way of a hater trying to rationalize his dislike for a player, hiding behind supposedly meaningful numbers.

Nonsense. Like him or not, KD was the best player on that team. Like, i am not particularily big on LBJ but this post is like saying D-Wade was the best player on the heat. He wasnt, he stepped down to help the team. And thats what Steph did, too.

[xinxin]

Since his 2 rings with GS had asterisks attached to them, he felt desperate enough to go elsewhere and try to prove that he’s the man.

Tried to do it with the Nets with his own superteam, didn’t work.

Now trying it with the Suns with his new big 3 of Booker and Beal.. & so far it’s failing

Whereas Steph proved that he can win rings with or without KD.. pre & post KD.. now that’s the man.


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[michaelm]

Since his 2 rings with GS had asterisks attached to them, he felt desperate enough to go elsewhere and try to prove that he’s the man.

Tried to do it with the Nets with his own superteam, didn’t work.

Now trying it with the Suns with his new big 3 of Booker and Beal.. & so far it’s failing

Whereas Steph proved that he can win rings with or without KD.. pre & post KD.. now that’s the man.


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He probably faked the ruptured Achilles’ tendon as wel to have an excuse.