Patrick Williams is having his worst year

[Infinity2152]

Are we ignoring the defensive system he plays in? Or the fact if the team defense is bad without him, it's not likely to change much with him?

If he's a good defender, why would it not get better with him? It gets better with Lonzo Ball or Alex Caruso or other guys we view as good defenders. If it is the same with or without him, what is the argument that he is helping on this end?

He's not the point of attack defender nor the rim protector, two defensive roles having much more impact than changing PF defenders.

What do you think his defensive strengths are if it isn't rim defense (I agree) or POA (I disagree). Do you see him as an off the ball, ball hawk? I mean I see no evidence he's a guy doing great help defense things.

Because Caruso and Ball are better defenders first of all. And secondly, again, they're much more vocal and involved in team defense, better help defenders. It's like defense is relative. I'd say Pat has average mobility and strength for his size (NBA wise). If you put him in the field of veteran great defenders, he's lacking. If you put him in the field of 22 and under average to good defenders, think he'd slot in nicely. They are elite, it's like asking why a team's bad offense doesn't get better when a 14pt scorer gets in as opposed to when Lebron or Tatum get in (exaggeration for effect ) Doesn't make the 14 pt guy a bad scorer, he just can't lift a bad offense.

I know it sounds like excuses, but I try not to deal in absolutes and take the overall situation into consideration. Almost nobody looks good defensively here except two guys who'd elevate ANY team's defense. Impact wise as far as team defense, he's nowhere near them. Individual defense, he's not as good as them, but they're like All Defense level. He is much younger, and defense is hugely impacted by experience, maybe more than offense. Recognizing other team's plays, not biting on pump fakes, positioning, knowing your opponent's tendencies, etc. I think in a vacuum, Pat's an above average individual defender and probably about average help defender. And I agree, probably an above average POA defender. Which would be more useful if he played the three and ran another PF so he'd be free to guard POA attackers more.

I'm grading every Bull on a curve for these last few years Been a lot of confusion, stupid lineups and missing players. Starting Coby White as your POA defender and Vucevic as your rim protector would seriously hamper most co-starters defensively. And I'd love if Pat were a little more active on defense, don't think it's about his capability or any physical limitations most nights.

[GoBlue72391]

Fun fact - Patrick has a higher career 3pt% than Zach Lavine has in either his career or his Bulls career.

Even more fun fact: this lacks any and all context.

[GoBlue72391]

Just curious, do people have a bigger problem with how he's playing offensively for a 5th option or more of a problem that he is (and has been) a 5th option for us (on his contract)?

If the latter, what should a 5th option make?

If the former, what should a 5th option produce?

My problem with him is he's a lousy basketball player and I'm sick of seeing him play for my team.

[GoBlue72391]

I got a board warning for being too positive and optimistic about this team. This is where this fan base is right now. Something needs to change.

PWill had a fine December and November. He is just 23 and has a skillset. That translates well. The head is the easiest thing to change.

Not about the team......about the one specific player that is looking really bad. Objectively speaking is having his worst year.
The two months of exceptional play for him that you are touting were nothing outstanding for most starting PF's.

Also, the head/heart is the absolute hardest thing to change. If it were that easy, Eddy Curry would be on his way to the HOF. Very few people are able to change to base personality and "fire in their belly".

The best possible chance for Pat to have made an internal change (if possible) would required trading him (before being re-signed) and then his new team not opting to re-sign him. Maybe if he is starting at being out of the league (or bouncing around for near minimum), he might decide to get it together......maybe.

How is the head/heart harder to change than athleticism? Quickness? Size? Length?

I didn't say it was exceptional play.....I said it was "FINE". ITs clearly not exceptional, but his January isn't his season and his season isn't his past or future career.

You can become more athletic and stronger through training. You can't change the way your brain functions, short of a lobotomy or massive head trauma.

[GoBlue72391]

How is the head/heart harder to change than athleticism? Quickness? Size? Length?

I didn't say it was exceptional play.....I said it was "FINE". ITs clearly not exceptional, but his January isn't his season and his season isn't his past or future career.

Fine isn't good enough, he's being paid 20 million to be better than fine (which he wasn't anyway).
His January is his past and future career because this has been his career and there's been no development just regression.

He's being paid 18 million, not 20, for this season and each of the next 3 or 4. He's a career 40% three point shooter on decent volume and he's one of our best defenders. He's shooting .286 from three in January. So no, it's not at all his past career.

Wait a minute. You're willing to nitpick over the difference between $2M, but you've also said you view 5-year contracts as basically the same thing as 3 and 4-year contracts. That does not compute.

[GoBlue72391]

Patrick Williams is basically an average defender. On an undersized team with many below-average defenders, his value gets inflated.

And his defense gets overrated because people are (understandably) desperate to find strong aspects in his game.

[HomoSapien]

Patrick Williams is basically an average defender. On an undersized team with many below-average defenders, his value gets inflated.

And his defense gets overrated because people are (understandably) desperate to find strong aspects in his game.

The hard thing for me with Williams, is that you could slide in almost anyone else into his minutes and instantly get more production. This was true of JaVonte Green and Derrick Jones Jr. and it's now true again of Buzelis and Jalen Smith.

[League Circles]

Just curious, do people have a bigger problem with how he's playing offensively for a 5th option or more of a problem that he is (and has been) a 5th option for us (on his contract)?

If the latter, what should a 5th option make?

If the former, what should a 5th option produce?

My problem with him is he's a lousy basketball player and I'm sick of seeing him play for my team.

I think you replied to the wrong post

[GoBlue72391]

Just curious, do people have a bigger problem with how he's playing offensively for a 5th option or more of a problem that he is (and has been) a 5th option for us (on his contract)?

If the latter, what should a 5th option make?

If the former, what should a 5th option produce?

My problem with him is he's a lousy basketball player and I'm sick of seeing him play for my team.

I think you replied to the wrong post

Nope.

[League Circles]

Fine isn't good enough, he's being paid 20 million to be better than fine (which he wasn't anyway).
His January is his past and future career because this has been his career and there's been no development just regression.

He's being paid 18 million, not 20, for this season and each of the next 3 or 4. He's a career 40% three point shooter on decent volume and he's one of our best defenders. He's shooting .286 from three in January. So no, it's not at all his past career.

Wait a minute. You're willing to nitpick over the difference between $2M, but you've also said you view 5-year contracts as basically the same thing as 3 and 4-year contracts. That does not compute.

I wasn't nitpicking, I was just correcting your error. And yes, I do think for a young player, there isn't a ton of difference between 3-5 year deals, especially if a flat or declining contract like Patrick's.

[GoBlue72391]

He's being paid 18 million, not 20, for this season and each of the next 3 or 4. He's a career 40% three point shooter on decent volume and he's one of our best defenders. He's shooting .286 from three in January. So no, it's not at all his past career.

Wait a minute. You're willing to nitpick over the difference between $2M, but you've also said you view 5-year contracts as basically the same thing as 3 and 4-year contracts. That does not compute.

I wasn't nitpicking, I was just correcting your error. And yes, I do think for a young player, there isn't a ton of difference between 3-5 year deals, especially if a flat or declining contract like Patrick's.

It wasn't my error, but yeah, that's a pretty unique opinion.

[League Circles]

My problem with him is he's a lousy basketball player and I'm sick of seeing him play for my team.

I think you replied to the wrong post

Nope.

I asked a question and you replied in an unrelated way because you're overly emotional about this stuff.

[GoBlue72391]

I think you replied to the wrong post

Nope.

I asked a question and you replied in an unrelated way because you're overly emotional about this stuff.

No, I'm saying you gave two reasons for why people might have a problem with Pat and I'm saying, at least for me, it goes way beyond those two limited options you gave.

[League Circles]

Nope.

I asked a question and you replied in an unrelated way because you're overly emotional about this stuff.

No, I'm saying you gave two reasons for why people might have a problem with Pat and I'm saying, at least for me, it goes way beyond those two limited options you gave.

Again, you just can't read man. I asked people a question. I was trying to get to the bottom of the weird problems people have with his raw counting numbers.

[erlim]

Who is going to want Patrick Williams? He’s a China league level player.

Maybe he’s better than Yi Jianlian. Not sure.

Yi was guilty of being old.

Probably a wash. Patrick is probably slightly better as an on ball defender, Yi could shoot better and had way better court vision.

[gardenofsound]

Not about the team......about the one specific player that is looking really bad. Objectively speaking is having his worst year.
The two months of exceptional play for him that you are touting were nothing outstanding for most starting PF's.

Also, the head/heart is the absolute hardest thing to change. If it were that easy, Eddy Curry would be on his way to the HOF. Very few people are able to change to base personality and "fire in their belly".

The best possible chance for Pat to have made an internal change (if possible) would required trading him (before being re-signed) and then his new team not opting to re-sign him. Maybe if he is starting at being out of the league (or bouncing around for near minimum), he might decide to get it together......maybe.

How is the head/heart harder to change than athleticism? Quickness? Size? Length?

I didn't say it was exceptional play.....I said it was "FINE". ITs clearly not exceptional, but his January isn't his season and his season isn't his past or future career.

You can become more athletic and stronger through training. You can't change the way your brain functions, short of a lobotomy or massive head trauma.

I’d have agreed with you this time last year until I was diagnosed with ADHD and prescribed medication. I’m in my mid 30s and the past 8 months has changed my thinking.

Medication can change things in profound ways.

[Guru]

How is the head/heart harder to change than athleticism? Quickness? Size? Length?

I didn't say it was exceptional play.....I said it was "FINE". ITs clearly not exceptional, but his January isn't his season and his season isn't his past or future career.

You can become more athletic and stronger through training. You can't change the way your brain functions, short of a lobotomy or massive head trauma.

I’d have agreed with you this time last year until I was diagnosed with ADHD and prescribed medication. I’m in my mid 30s and the past 8 months has changed my thinking.

Medication can change things in profound ways.

So can counseling, coaching, maturing, better leadership....You can absolutely change the way your brain functions. We aren't complete when were 23.

[panthermark]

You can become more athletic and stronger through training. You can't change the way your brain functions, short of a lobotomy or massive head trauma.

I’d have agreed with you this time last year until I was diagnosed with ADHD and prescribed medication. I’m in my mid 30s and the past 8 months has changed my thinking.

Medication can change things in profound ways.

So can counseling, coaching, maturing, better leadership....You can absolutely change the way your brain functions. We aren't complete when were 23.

We are not talking about medicating Pat to make him more aggressive.
No one is concerned if Pat is passive off the court.
He simply does not have fire in his belly, and you can't teach heart.

It is why Eddy Curry and Andrew Bynum and Derrick Coleman and Ben Simmons and a bunch of others never lived up to their potential. If we could transfer Noah's heart into these guys, it would have been done.

Tim Thomas should have been better. Lamar Odom should have been better. Some guys just didn't give a crap beyond a paycheck.

[Guru]

I’d have agreed with you this time last year until I was diagnosed with ADHD and prescribed medication. I’m in my mid 30s and the past 8 months has changed my thinking.

Medication can change things in profound ways.

So can counseling, coaching, maturing, better leadership....You can absolutely change the way your brain functions. We aren't complete when were 23.

We are not talking about medicating Pat to make him more aggressive.
No one is concerned if Pat is passive off the court.
He simply does not have fire in his belly, and you can't teach heart.

It is why Eddy Curry and Andrew Bynum and Derrick Coleman and Ben Simmons and a bunch of others never lived up to their potential. If we could transfer Noah's heart into these guys, it would have been done.

Tim Thomas should have been better. Lamar Odom should have been better. Some guys just didn't give a crap beyond a paycheck.

That's not PWill. He cares. He's obviously just hard on himself and deferring. There is a part of me that wants to send him down to Windy City for 2 weeks and make him dominate the ball. Too easy to defer when you have Vuc-DDR-Lavine-White

[panthermark]

So can counseling, coaching, maturing, better leadership....You can absolutely change the way your brain functions. We aren't complete when were 23.

We are not talking about medicating Pat to make him more aggressive.
No one is concerned if Pat is passive off the court.
He simply does not have fire in his belly, and you can't teach heart.

It is why Eddy Curry and Andrew Bynum and Derrick Coleman and Ben Simmons and a bunch of others never lived up to their potential. If we could transfer Noah's heart into these guys, it would have been done.

Tim Thomas should have been better. Lamar Odom should have been better. Some guys just didn't give a crap beyond a paycheck.

That's not PWill. He cares. He's obviously just hard on himself and deferring. There is a part of me that wants to send him down to Windy City for 2 weeks and make him dominate the ball. Too easy to defer when you have Vuc-DDR-Lavine-White

DDR is not on this team.
Lavine missed plenty of time last season.
Pat is still passive, AND he lacks the skill needed to do much more than cut and spot-up.

That excuse is old.