2024-25 Season Discussion and Speculation Part II

[lilfishi22]

Read on Twitter

So in the likely event of not being able to get Butler for ourselves (not shedding any tears over this really), Shouldn't we at least try and explore being a facilitator to these teams that actually could land him so we can get some pieces/assets back??

I can absolutely see a reality where Ishbia is being rope a doped by Riley here. Heat set an initial asking price Ishbia was wise not to meet, Riley then lowers it to a point where other teams can play but also at a point where Ishbia throwing in that extra FRP or Dunn will get a deal done. When we were the only suitor out there, it was difficult for Riley to get leverage, if he opened up the market then Suns have competition. Jimmy saying he'll go anywhere but Memphis and back to Miami also doesn't help us.

Bridges was a dealbreaker until Ishbia wanted to get a deal done.

[Sunsdeuce]

Trade Bait

The Suns have assigned Oso Ighodaro to the G League

[Slim Charless]

Per Stein Rockets not interested in Fox and will roll with their current lineup.

Houston is waiting on us. Couldn't be more plain. They'll go into the playoffs and see who stands out, then wait for the summer and call us about Booker or KD.

[Blonde]

Fox is one of my favorite players league wide. Can I interest you in one lightly used Kevin Durant?

Since it’s trade deadline season and none of this is going to happen let’s throw it out:

Houston gets KD

Suns get Fox and Adams

Sacramento gets Jabari Smith, Cam Whitmore, and Dillon Brooks + the PHX picks that Houston holds

Houston goes for it all, Suns retool around Fox/Booker, Sac resets with a load of draft capital and Jabari (or whoever else Houston is willing to part with)

[BobbieL]

Read on Twitter

So in the likely event of not being able to get Butler for ourselves (not shedding any tears over this really), Shouldn't we at least try and explore being a facilitator to these teams that actually could land him so we can get some pieces/assets back??

I can absolutely see a reality where Ishbia is being rope a doped by Riley here. Heat set an initial asking price Ishbia was wise not to meet, Riley then lowers it to a point where other teams can play but also at a point where Ishbia throwing in that extra FRP or Dunn will get a deal done. When we were the only suitor out there, it was difficult for Riley to get leverage, if he opened up the market then Suns have competition. Jimmy saying he'll go anywhere but Memphis and back to Miami also doesn't help us.

Bridges was a dealbreaker until Ishbia wanted to get a deal done.

This is exactly it!! Riley is playing the long game with Ishbia and is going to get him to somehow get Dunn - even if its another trade. I have thought for a few days - to move on from Nurkic and to get Butler - the Suns will move all three FRPs and Dunn.

As for the Durant - I truly want to know what James Jones was offering -my guess it was a LOT less than what Ishbia gave up

[Ghost of Kleine]

ALLEN TRADES

1- Allen/ CLE 26' 1st to Toronto for Olynyk/ Mogbo/ POR 25' 2nd ( 37th pick).

2- Allen to Orlando for Harris/ Howard/ DEN 25' 1st.

3- Allen/ CLE 26' 1st for Paul/ Champagne/ CHI 25' 2nd ( 39th pick).
** Flip Jones or Morris for a 2nd and then use that 2nd and our TPE to Milwaukee for G Trent Jr.

NURKIC TRADES

1- Nurkic/ CLE 1st to New York for Robinson/ Kolek/ Dadiet.

2- Nurkic/ CLE 1st to Indiana for Toppin/ Wiseman/ Freeman.

3- Nurkic/ CLE 1st to San Antonio for Paul/ Champagne/ filler/ CHI 25' 2nd ( 37th pick).

** followup trade of Jones to San Antonio for a 2nd to offset giving up Paul and so Tyus can play with his brother ( feel good story). Then use that 2nd and our TPE to MIL for GTrent jr to stopgap replace Allen.

I don't understand the Allen trades

What is it that you don't understand about the Allen trades specifically man?

[lilfishi22]

As much as I've enjoyed seeing the creativity in being able to gain extra assets and manoeuvring around the 2nd apron that I didn't think was possible thanks to cap expert and assistant GM Matt Tellem, I can't help but feel like we've gotten too clever for our own good, especially when it comes to enabling Ishbia.

Tellem would've been an absolute asset to the team during the Sarver era when we had to go to the ends of the Earth just to get Sarver to spend a dime

[lilfishi22]

ALLEN TRADES

1- Allen/ CLE 26' 1st to Toronto for Olynyk/ Mogbo/ POR 25' 2nd ( 37th pick).

2- Allen to Orlando for Harris/ Howard/ DEN 25' 1st.

3- Allen/ CLE 26' 1st for Paul/ Champagne/ CHI 25' 2nd ( 39th pick).
** Flip Jones or Morris for a 2nd and then use that 2nd and our TPE to Milwaukee for G Trent Jr.

NURKIC TRADES

1- Nurkic/ CLE 1st to New York for Robinson/ Kolek/ Dadiet.

2- Nurkic/ CLE 1st to Indiana for Toppin/ Wiseman/ Freeman.

3- Nurkic/ CLE 1st to San Antonio for Paul/ Champagne/ filler/ CHI 25' 2nd ( 37th pick).

** followup trade of Jones to San Antonio for a 2nd to offset giving up Paul and so Tyus can play with his brother ( feel good story). Then use that 2nd and our TPE to MIL for GTrent jr to stopgap replace Allen.

I don't understand the Allen trades

What is it that you don't understand about the Allen trades specifically man?

1. Allen is not negative asset so why package him with a 1st for Olynyk and a 2nd?
2. OK, I don't mind getting a 1st back but I don't see how this helps us
3. Again...packaging a 1st with Allen for....CHRIS PAUL?

[dremill24]

As much as I've enjoyed seeing the creativity in being able to gain extra assets and manoeuvring around the 2nd apron that I didn't think was possible thanks to cap expert and assistant GM Matt Tellem, I can't help but feel like we've gotten too clever for our own good, especially when it comes to enabling Ishbia.

Tellem would've been an absolute asset to the team during the Sarver era when we had to go to the ends of the Earth just to get Sarver to spend a dime

Creativity & thinking outside the box is generally a very useful trait. But sometimes, when you did something that "nobody else thought to do," it's because it was a bad idea, not because you were more clever than everyone

[NapoleonII]

Why should Allen be traded at all?

His minutes are down, relegated to the bench, and per minute, is being more productive than he was last year. Still our best 3 point shooter by far, and his range is DEEP.

I agree a bunch of y'all are being so ADHD about these potential trades. No one is talking about how we're 8-2 in our last 10, only the Rockets have been that good over the last 10.

We need rebounding, defense, and height. That is POSSIBLE without trading Beal or Allen.

We can't afford IMO to isolate Beal. We are trying (or tried) to get Butler, and it's looking like it's a no-go. Oh well, move the **** on and win games.

I'll be glad when the deadline is over.

[Ghost of Kleine]

I don't understand the Allen trades

What is it that you don't understand about the Allen trades specifically man?

1. Allen is not negative asset so why package him with a 1st for Olynyk and a 2nd?
2. OK, I don't mind getting a 1st back but I don't see how this helps us
3. Again...packaging a 1st with Allen for....CHRIS PAUL?

1- You're right! He's not a negative for sure. But his contract length isn't something that Toronto would be looking to exchange for Olynyks' soon to be expiring. Toronto would be eating an additional two years at $18 then $19 million. So thirty-six million in total in this exchange. The 1st (late 1st) is appropriate compensation for eating that much salary. And even then, I do have a 2nd coming back in the deal to soften the gap. Also not many are likely aware, but Mogbo is a very underrated 6'9 225 lb multipositional/playmaking power forward in the mold of a bigger Draymond Green (elite defensive potential/IQ/Playmaking potential) as more additional returning value.

So in my estimation, the value only slightly favors Toronto in this specific premise.

2- Harris is the primary salary filler, but also a solid 6'4 defensive guard who can hit the three. Howard is actually an underrated versatile 6'8 scorer with still untapped high upside. Think kind of a more versatile Saddiq Bey but with the potential to be measurably better. And the DEN 25' 1st is the real prize as it's currently ranged in the early 20s of the 1st round of this upcoming draft this summer. And there are a number of underrated young athletic cost-controlled impact prospects even in that range. I would've preferred Bidatze, but I just don't see the Magic doing that for Allen due to being thin at center already. Also, I would have chosen a different option, but currently, we just don't really have any other desirable trade assets left.

- As you should easily discern by my avatar, I'm a Grayson Allen fan! But in the case of this premise, I just see Paul having more overall impact value to our team as a vocal leader alternative to Butler. And Champagne is a very versatile 6'8 high motor wing defender and solid rebounder who just happens to shoot around 7% from three. Although Allen is still the better shooter and playmaker, Champagnie is 6'8 a better overall defender, and a better rebounder which would give us more size on the wing! And if you compare them statistically, there's really not a significant gap! they're fairly similar in terms of statistical production. Only Champagnie is a fraction of the contractual cost compared to Allens' contract. Paul is the key value centerpiece though as he's the target for his effect on Booker and our team in holding everyone accountable and leading successfully! And without any long-term commitment for us to be concerned with! The 2nd represents incoming cost-controlled value to further target specific positional depth needs like backup center or jumbo wing/forward in those ranges.

[Ghost of Kleine]

Why should Allen be traded at all?

His minutes are down, relegated to the bench, and per minute, is being more productive than he was last year. Still our best 3 point shooter by far, and his range is DEEP.

I agree a bunch of y'all are being so ADHD about these potential trades. No one is talking about how we're 8-2 in our last 10, only the Rockets have been that good over the last 10.

We need rebounding, defense, and height. That is POSSIBLE without trading Beal or Allen.

We can't afford IMO to isolate Beal. We are trying (or tried) to get Butler, and it's looking like it's a no-go. Oh well, move the **** on and win games.

I'll be glad when the deadline is over.

I'd prefer not to man! Look at my avatar to tell I'm a fan of his, BUT........We really have no other salary-matching assets to make trades with aside from Allen now do we? Again, I'd rather use Nurkic, but he's not desirable. I'd much rather be able to trade Beal, But who is willing to take him that he would willingly approve being traded to? The sad reality is that Ishbias' compulsively irrational trades left us with nothing really left of value to try and leverage towards roster improvements if not Allen!

Now we could always just choose to not do any trades and just finish out the season and look to finally rebuild! Which I can assure you I'd emphatically endorse. HOWEVER, All reports indicate that we're not going to do that and that we're going to try to be competitive and upgrade our roster. So if that IS indeed the case, what salaried assets do we legitimately have besides Allen that we can ACTUALLY trade? If you can offer me a better alternative, I'll happily accept it as I'd prefer to keep Allen if possible! The bonus being I wouldn't have to change my avatar either! But unfortunately, I just don't see the other options available to us!

[BobbieL]

As much as I've enjoyed seeing the creativity in being able to gain extra assets and manoeuvring around the 2nd apron that I didn't think was possible thanks to cap expert and assistant GM Matt Tellem, I can't help but feel like we've gotten too clever for our own good, especially when it comes to enabling Ishbia.

Tellem would've been an absolute asset to the team during the Sarver era when we had to go to the ends of the Earth just to get Sarver to spend a dime

Creativity & thinking outside the box is generally a very useful trait. But sometimes, when you did something that "nobody else thought to do," it's because it was a bad idea, not because you were more clever than everyone

To follow up -- I get that the CBA was ratified post Durant trade but that doesn't mean they had to keep making trades that put them in a worse position with the CBA

So trading for Butler and extending him would put the Suns still in the position of limited trades. Doing nothing would be better than doing something stupid!!

I truly think this is a vanity project for Ishbia. "Hey everybody, the small white kid walk on is now a billionaire so F you to everybody who gave me a wedgie in the 3rd grade and I going to be in the news making trades!!!"

I think making trades to give the team MORE flexibility would be better than making a dumb trade and extending two dudes as old as Durant and Butler

[lilfishi22]

What is it that you don't understand about the Allen trades specifically man?

1. Allen is not negative asset so why package him with a 1st for Olynyk and a 2nd?
2. OK, I don't mind getting a 1st back but I don't see how this helps us
3. Again...packaging a 1st with Allen for....CHRIS PAUL?

1- You're right! He's not a negative for sure. But his contract length isn't something that Toronto would be looking to exchange for Olynyks' soon to be expiring. Toronto would be eating an additional two years at $18 then $19 million. So thirty-six million in total in this exchange. The 1st (late 1st) is appropriate compensation for eating that much salary. And even then, I do have a 2nd coming back in the deal to soften the gap. Also not many are likely aware, but Mogbo is a very underrated 6'9 225 lb multipositional/playmaking power forward in the mold of a bigger Draymond Green (elite defensive potential/IQ/Playmaking potential) as more additional returning value.

So in my estimation, the value only slightly favors Toronto in this specific premise.

2- Harris is the primary salary filler, but also a solid 6'4 defensive guard who can hit the three. Howard is actually an underrated versatile 6'8 scorer with still untapped high upside. Think kind of a more versatile Saddiq Bey but with the potential to be measurably better. And the DEN 25' 1st is the real prize as it's currently ranged in the early 20s of the 1st round of this upcoming draft this summer. And there are a number of underrated young athletic cost-controlled impact prospects even in that range. I would've preferred Bidatze, but I just don't see the Magic doing that for Allen due to being thin at center already. Also, I would have chosen a different option, but currently, we just don't really have any other desirable trade assets left.

- As you should easily discern by my avatar, I'm a Grayson Allen fan! But in the case of this premise, I just see Paul having more overall impact value to our team as a vocal leader alternative to Butler. And Champagne is a very versatile 6'8 high motor wing defender and solid rebounder who just happens to shoot around 7% from three. Although Allen is still the better shooter and playmaker, Champagnie is 6'8 a better overall defender, and a better rebounder which would give us more size on the wing! And if you compare them statistically, there's really not a significant gap! they're fairly similar in terms of statistical production. Only Champagnie is a fraction of the contractual cost compared to Allens' contract. Paul is the key value centerpiece though as he's the target for his effect on Booker and our team in holding everyone accountable and leading successfully! And without any long-term commitment for us to be concerned with! The 2nd represents incoming cost-controlled value to further target specific positional depth needs like backup center or jumbo wing/forward in those ranges.

1. Again, Allen is an asset. If a team like Toronto sees his longer deal as a negative impact to his value then I don't see why we should add extra value to move him to a team that doesn't really see him as an asset for what....Olynyk who we don't really need or a 2nd round flyer in Mogbo? No thanks

2. I don't think Harris is playing a role on this team quite frankly. Especially when we have Dunn. But if the ultimate point of this trade is to essentially move Allen for a 1st...sure the value is fine, I still don't see why we're moving Allen for draft capital when we need him on this team. Rather move him for someone who can add value at another position.

3. I think this is a backwards move. As much as I appreciated CP3's time here, I see Allen as having more value as a younger player who can still be moved for positive value as opposed to CP3 who is on his last legs and so I don't see much current value and there's certainly no future value in him. I don't mind Champagnie, he's fine, good value contract but I think Allen has more value as a player and as an asset. The 2nder from Chicago doesn't move the needle for me.

[lilfishi22]

As much as I've enjoyed seeing the creativity in being able to gain extra assets and manoeuvring around the 2nd apron that I didn't think was possible thanks to cap expert and assistant GM Matt Tellem, I can't help but feel like we've gotten too clever for our own good, especially when it comes to enabling Ishbia.

Tellem would've been an absolute asset to the team during the Sarver era when we had to go to the ends of the Earth just to get Sarver to spend a dime

Creativity & thinking outside the box is generally a very useful trait. But sometimes, when you did something that "nobody else thought to do," it's because it was a bad idea, not because you were more clever than everyone

To follow up -- I get that the CBA was ratified post Durant trade but that doesn't mean they had to keep making trades that put them in a worse position with the CBA

So trading for Butler and extending him would put the Suns still in the position of limited trades. Doing nothing would be better than doing something stupid!!

I truly think this is a vanity project for Ishbia. "Hey everybody, the small white kid walk on is now a billionaire so F you to everybody who gave me a wedgie in the 3rd grade and I going to be in the news making trades!!!"

I think making trades to give the team MORE flexibility would be better than making a dumb trade and extending two dudes as old as Durant and Butler

I think when the 2nd apron rules came in, it took a lot of executives by surprise, not because they were coming but because of how harsh they were. That being said, even if it wasn't as penalising, I still think Ishbia would've pushed the limits of what is possible within the rules so we're probably in the same position regardless.

At the end of the day, the value for KD is still fine in my books, but what it did do was set us on a trajectory which had no 3rd path, it was either championship or go down in a big dumpster fire. We're getting closer and closer to that dumpster fire and Ishbia is adding more fuel to it.

[BobbieL]

Why should Allen be traded at all?

His minutes are down, relegated to the bench, and per minute, is being more productive than he was last year. Still our best 3 point shooter by far, and his range is DEEP.

I agree a bunch of y'all are being so ADHD about these potential trades. No one is talking about how we're 8-2 in our last 10, only the Rockets have been that good over the last 10.

We need rebounding, defense, and height. That is POSSIBLE without trading Beal or Allen.

We can't afford IMO to isolate Beal. We are trying (or tried) to get Butler, and it's looking like it's a no-go. Oh well, move the **** on and win games.

I'll be glad when the deadline is over.

I get you can only play who you play but the schedule was pretty soft and against Cleveland, they got spanked by 20 points.
The Suns have a very tough remainder of the schedule. So at best, probably looking at the 5th seed but play-in game is a real possibility.

[Ghost of Kleine]

Read on Twitter

[TeamTragic]

Read on Twitter

Are we trading for Butler with just the 3 FRP?

[sunsbum]

The fact that you and Puff are all about getting Butler, tells me all I need to know lol. Jimmy is a cancer and trading for him will kill this team's future for the rest of the decade. You think he'd bring a title to this team???

We won't even make it to the conference finals with him. Probably lose in the 1st tbh. No. It's time move on from Booker.





I want 0 trades until the summer when we need to call up Houston.

One player can be a difference maker. The question is: Which player, who might be pried loose from somewhere, is that player to get us over the wall?

Beal isn't that guy and I knew that much from the start. He's a nice complementary piece, but his contract is absurd for the availability you get from him. Butler is a much stronger player in general, even if he's a bit more of a firestarter in the locker room and on the court. There's risk and reward in every player; it's unknown as to what you'll get until you integrate them into your group.

If Butler were two years younger, maybe this might not be such a badly viewed trade idea. But even though he's still performing well, he's nearing the end of his career quickly. Signing him to anything long term is a bad idea, but we all know Ishbia has no issue with being the guy to put bad ideas into practice.

As far as moving on from Booker, well, that's a whole different scenario. It would be one that bears considerably more fruit than much else which has been floated, but I don't see him being moved unless we were able to pillage another team's resources and that never happens for us. I don't see Booker being moved unless he asks out. The only real scenario I see where that happens is if we're relegated to the bottom of the standings again and enduring another full rebuild. At that point, we might as well dangle that carrot out there to see who bites.

Houston wants him, that's why they acquired our picks. Also have tons of young players so they are the team to raid.

I think a trade is possible if we make it-and get super killed in the play-in or the 1st round. Something that puts us in the spotlight and humiliate Ishbia. On a national scale. Seems that only a Booker trade can get us out of it. IMO

Nah, I wanted to blow it up but that ain’t happening now with the Richard’s trade. Jimmy is better than Brad and probably any other player that’s a realistic get for us. You’re in space camp with these rocket trades.

[schnakenpopanz]

https://www.espn.com/nba/insider/story/_/id/43522050/nba-trade-deadline-tiers-deal-scenarios-outlooks-all-30-teams

Phoenix Suns
Recent transactions:

Traded their 2031 unprotected first-round pick to Utah for three first-rounders: 2025 least favorable of Cleveland, Minnesota and Utah (if 1-10); 2027 least favorable of Cleveland, Minnesota and Utah; 2029 least favorable of Cleveland, Minnesota (6-30) and Utah.

Traded Josh Okogie and three second-round picks (2026 via Denver, 2031 via Denver and 2031 own) to Charlotte for Nick Richards and a 2025 second (via Denver)

Keep an eye on: First-round picks acquired from Utah, Jusuf Nurkic, Bradley Beal and Grayson Allen

Phoenix took an unorthodox approach with what had been its lone tradable first-round pick. Instead of dangling the 2031 unprotected first to include in a Beal or Nurkic trade, the Suns turned the pick into multiple first-rounders.

The three first-round picks give Phoenix the option to make multiple ones. Finding a trade for Beal or Nurkic will require creativity, as Phoenix is not allowed to aggregate contracts, use more than 100% of the Traded Player Exception or send out cash.

The Suns have 78% of their payroll tied up in paying Kevin Durant, Devin Booker, Beal and Nurkic. Beal has a no-trade clause (more on that below) while Nurkic will be paid $18.1 million this season and $19.4 million next season. He has been replaced in the rotation by Mason Plumlee and Nick Richards.

Beal is one of two players (LeBron James is the other) who has a no trade clause. The clause was negotiated into his contract while he played for Washington in 2022. He has $111 million left on his contract after this season and has the right to approve any trade. (His agent, Mark Bartelstein, indicated to ESPN's Brian Windhorst that he would never give up the no-trade clause if he were moved again.)

Grayson Allen signed a four-year, $70 million extension last April and is shooting 42.4% from 3. The addition of Tyus Jones and Beal's recent move to the bench have cut into Allen's playing time. He is averaging 10 fewer minutes per game than last season.

The Suns face the same restrictions next season if their roster stays intact. Phoenix has nine players under contract and could top $500 million in salary and luxury tax. The Suns' 2032 first-round pick starting in June is not available because they are over the second apron this season.

Two trades that work

1) Phoenix receives:
P.J. Tucker
Bones Hyland

LA Clippers receive:
Jusuf Nurkic
2027 least favorable first of Cleveland, Minnesota, Utah

2) Phoenix receives:
Gary Harris
Cory Joseph
2025 first from Denver (if 6-30)

Orlando receives:
Grayson Allen
Monte Morris

These two separate trades would get Phoenix below both aprons next season and give the Suns two first-round picks in this year's draft. The trade saves the Suns more than $200 million in salary and luxury tax penalties next season.

Top draft assets to use in trades:

2029 least favorable first-round pick of Cleveland, Minnesota (if 6-30) and Utah

Other notable draft assets:

2025 first-round pick (via Cleveland)
2027 least favorable first-round pick of Cleveland, Minnesota and Utah
2025 second-round pick (via Denver)

Other notes:

Phoenix has an open roster spot.

The Suns are projected to pay a combined $382 million in salary and luxury tax, the largest in NBA history.

They have a $3.25 million trade exception. They are allowed to use the exception despite being over the second apron.




This is nuts.... 350 Million for mediocrity